 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-03-03 05:58
The renowned Mr. Tom Ridenour has put up two new fantastic videos on reed "break-in" or "conditioning" for a better term. These videos are part of his youtube channel, where he puts very good time in explaining things about the clarinet. This video will, I'm sure contradict a lot of what many, many people do. But, this is a method that I have tried myself since last emailing Mr. Ridenour, and it works. Please do take the time to see these videos, especially for those that are confused about this process. Let's hear your opinions on it as well. Remember, everyone's method is different, but I would definitely consider this method as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1O5SC1M1K8 - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EQ5nhVL8QE - Part 2
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Author: sdr
Date: 2010-03-03 12:42
I found these useless. The 2 videos are a 6 1/2 min assertion that his method works for him and a 9 1/2 min meandering plug for his ATG system. Whether you like his ATG system or not, there is no new or useful info in here. I wasted 16 min waiting for the "pearls of wisdom" and there were none.
-sdr
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-03 13:19
It's his video about what he does. I would find it weird if he didn't state "what works for him". He only mentions the ATG system in the last minute and said to get it if you have trouble balancing reeds.
If you disagree with the videos assertions about "what works for him" then say what that is.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-03 17:40
sdr wrote:
Quote:
Whether you like his ATG system or not, there is no new or useful info in here.
I disagree. I think he made some interesting and potentially useful points, many of which go against conventional folklore/wisdom. Just having viewed the videos, I haven't tried to put all of these ideas into practice, yet, so I don't know how they will work for me. But he did make some noteworthy statements, and I think his ideas are worth trying. Here are a few of what I consider the most important points made in the video:
1.) Most problems people experience with reeds are due to imbalance, not warpage. Therefore, it is not necessary to employ elaborate procedures for reed break-in (aside from balancing the reed), nor is there much value in going to extreme lengths to control the storage humidity of reeds.
2.) A properly balanced reed has much less of a tendency to change over its lifetime (or with the weather). Thus, the best thing you can do to stabilize your reeds is to balance them at the earliest opportunity. (It sounds to me as if humidity changes, etc. must exacerbate imbalances in the reed--so if the reed is balanced, it will still physically change with the humidity but because the changes are symmetrical, you as the player don't notice them as much as you would if the reed was unbalanced--I don't think he said that explicitly, it's just what it sounds like to me.)
3.) The things we do with our embouchure to compensate for imbalance in a reed (including and especially a biting habit) can contribute to changes in the reed that can ultimately lead to the reed's demise. Elaborate storage and humidity control measures do not prevent this.
4.) Limiting the amount of time you spend playing on a reed in its initial stages doesn't do anything to help preserve the reed's life, and neither does postponing balancing of the reed until it is "broken-in." Breaking in an unbalanced reed is counterproductive, because the act of trying to play on an unbalanced reed is destructive to the reed.
5.) If and when you truly have a reed that is warped, there is little point in trying to restore the reed to flatness--you will most likely cause as many or more problems than you solve.
6.) Another technique that you can use to help adapt a reed to your mouthpiece is, after playing on it, to wipe the reed, put it back on the mouthpiece, lightly affix it with the ligature (don't tighten it up all the way), put the cap on the mouthpiece, and put the capped mouthpiece and reed into a plastic bag to stay overnight. This gives the reed an opportunity to conform to the mouthpiece table so it seals better.
Again, I'm not advocating for or against anything in the video--aside from the fact that I'm pretty low tech when it comes to reed storage, I really haven't tried the approach Tom outlines in the video. However, I don't think it's fair to view these videos as merely an advertisement for ATG. I think he makes some very interesting and noteworthy points regarding the conditioning of new reeds for use that do not necessarily require the ATG, and I think they are worth trying.
It's just that Tom's approach bucks the conventional folklore regarding the necessity and utility of the usual sorts of break-in rituals--so if you are looking for a video giving you a step-by-step set of break-in procedures (like so many people have), you won't find that. Instead, what he provides is a set of principles you can use to guide the manner in which you prepare your reeds for use.
In other words, the contribution Tom makes here is not a new method of breaking in reeds, per se, but the observation that the traditional sorts of rituals are unnecessary and even counterproductive, and that one should think in terms of getting reeds into balance, rather than broken-in.
Post Edited (2010-03-03 17:48)
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-03-03 18:02
Very, very well said mrn! I disagree also with sdr. I never once thought that this video is just about his ATG method, as he only mentions it in the final minute. Also, it IS his system, so he can advertise all he wants with it. He invented it! This video was not a video on promotion for a system. It does provide information on things you can do as a clarinet player to get your reeds to play with consistency stability. He doesn't mention that balancing will not make a bad reed of cane a good reed. But, it will make them playable, then you can really tell what kind of reed you are conditioning. If you don't balance your reeds right away, you won't know what kind of reed you are trying to get because of poor structure according to Tom.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-03 18:07
I think I read here somewhere that Richard Hawkins use this method of storing the reed on the mouthpiece in a plastic back with great results.
Sounds interesting. So I might just try it.
I'm just wondering if that means they(Tom and Richard) do no rotate their reeds or do they just pick their best reed each day to store on the mouthpiece ?
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-04 02:44
This is the first that I've heard of people leaving the reed on the mouthpiece for any reason other than convenience. The only other times I've heard people mention this idea is that you should NOT do it due to the reed drying and putting stress on the mouthpiece. I assume this is because the reed isn't drying evenly (part against the mouthpiece table drying slower than the part that is left off the mouthpiece approaching and including the tip). Tom and Richard leave the ligature loose (or at least not clamped) to avoid this effect, I assume.
My only problem (or question remaining) from the videos is when he talks about "re-balancing". If a reed is balanced well out of the box and played with a proper embouchure, what causes the reed to become imbalanced again? Or is this just the reed getting slightly harder as it breaks in (more stable, perhaps less responsive) and needs to be shaved down a little bit to compensate?
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Author: clarient55
Date: 2010-03-04 10:52
His system works. My reeds last for 4 months. They always play and I play everyday. I almost never have a problem with them. Its like using synthetic reeds after you use his system to balance a reed.
His videos are interesting, but its like being in a lecture hall with a professor that, while very knowledgeable and intelligent, is just on the edge of boring you to tears. Sometimes, I get the feeling that he thinks way to much and wants his watchers to think too much too.
A high level of education will do that to you.
I will say one thing ~ he's got a good sense of humor!
Mark...
The guy with the Ridenour matched set
Post Edited (2010-03-04 10:53)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-03-04 17:23
Wow, ....even if Tom's ideas were completely unfounded he speaks and thinks in a clarity that few people have.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-04 20:29
NBeaty wrote:
Quote:
My only problem (or question remaining) from the videos is when he talks about "re-balancing". If a reed is balanced well out of the box and played with a proper embouchure, what causes the reed to become imbalanced again? Or is this just the reed getting slightly harder as it breaks in (more stable, perhaps less responsive) and needs to be shaved down a little bit to compensate?
I think it may have something to do with what Tom said about unbalanced reeds changing, while balanced reeds tend to stay stable.
If you have a reed that is *almost* balanced (so it's balanced enough to be usable), it could be that it will change somewhat in a way that exacerbates the effect of the imbalance. In that case, you might need to do a "re-balance" to eliminate the remaining amount of imbalance that, while not a problem previously, has become noticeable as you play on it more. Remember that you can only adjust a reed to the extent that you can detect whatever imbalance exists.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-03-07 08:45
This is a kinda off topic but how many of you completely cracked up at 7:10 on the second video where he makes a metaphor of biting the mouthpiece. I keep watching these videos because of how satisfied I am with the results of my reeds after trying his "method" so to speak of reed conditioning. Everytime I come across that part I'm dying!! Anybody else?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-03-07 11:05
That a high percentage of reeds should be unbalanced "out of the box" should come as no surprise when you consider that the arundo donax plant is just a weed and that the equipment used to fashion them probably isn't always sharpened often enough. I do think Tom looks better without the week old beard, however.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-07 12:46
Not to sound dogmatic or "old school," but I find that reeds (particularly Vandoren) change dramtically in response over the course of four days of breaking them in WITHOUT ADJUSTMENT. This happens to the degree that some of the best reeds "out of the box" become some of the poorest a few days later.
Also, I have witnessed (and experienced) many reeds "out of the box" being played in performance/rehearsal scencarios that become waterlogged by the end. After this happens, it is much harder to resuscitate the reed.
This is why I do a break in period. This is why I wait to balance a reed. I cannot speak to why my reeds (Vandoren Rue Lepic 56) can last up to four months - this is incidental perhaps to anything.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-07 18:03
Paul I adjust my V-12 #3.5+ right out of the box and then play it slowly in. It maybe gets a little bit softer after 4-5 days but after 2-3 weeks of playing and even after over 4 weeks of playing on them each day about 30-60 minutes they still respond and feel the same as the first day with very few exceptions and that is that few(maybe 1 out of 20-30 reeds) warps and I have to throve it away.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-08 00:06
I don't know if I was more amused or confounded by some of the things he said in his video's. He must have used the term "balance" over a dozen times. Is there anyone out there that doesn't know that you need to "balance" a reed? The question isn't if you should but how you should, he only address that by saying you should look into his ATG system. I guess he address that in some other of his many other videos on how to use his system. When he says that the quality of the cane is not as important as the structure, balancing, I almost fell off of my chair. He says that humidity control is not so important but claims that he puts the reed and mouthpiece into a plastic bag. He talks about reeds warping, not sealing on the facing of the mouthpiece, but it's a proven fact that you can prevent that from happening if in fact you keep your reeds "humidity controlled". I've mentioned many time in the past that I haven't had a reed warp in over 25 years, since I began using a "humidity control" method and sealing my reeds. I used to use dampits but now I use the Rico Vitalizer. One thing I totally agree, besides the need to balance, is his reference to only keeping the "vibrating" portion of the reed wet. He doesn't say, as I do on my reed page, to never allow the bark portion of the reed to ever get wet but he sort of refers that. Anyway, I wonder if he has to play in an orchestra that rehearses four times a week, performs four concerts a week, has to practice, play chamber music, travel to different parts of the state and out of state, different concert halls, etc. It's a different story when you need to have good reeds all the time over and over again. I'm sorry, I have a lot of respect for Tom but I don't think he offers much in these videos. Read the reed pages on my website, I think you'll learn a lot more about breaking reeds in, humidity control and balancing then what you heard on these videos and I don't sell anything. As a matter of fact, it cost me a few bucks to keep that site on line. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-08 00:27
For NBeaty, Keeping the reed on the mouthpiece. Iggy Genussa used to do that when he was the principal clarinetist of the Baltimore Symphony, previously the same with the National and Chicago symphonies. He retired in the early 70s and was known for his beautiful sound. He would leave the reed on his mouthpiece and run tap water through the bore to wet the reed before concerts and rehearsals. I supposed he took it off when he practiced to clean it and practice on other reeds, I just don't know. I tried doing that but much prefer to rotate my clarinet reeds so I didn't like it on clarinet but I do that on my bass clarinet. I loosen the ligature, clean the bore by pushing a cloth into the bore after "blowing" through it and placing it in a plastic bag with a Rico Vitalizer inside, along with my extra reeds. I do take it off every few days to clean it and when I practice I change reeds to keep my other ones in good working condition but put my good one back on the MP and play that one exclusively at rehearsals and concerts as "Iggy" used to do with his clarinet reed. Yes, I run tape water over it to get it wet and place the cap on for a few minutes before playing it. As with all my reeds, I never let the bark get wet though.
Iggy would use the same reed for everything for 3-4 weeks and when it began to go he would go crazy opening box after box at rehearsals until he found another "perfect" reed. Then he was a happy camper for 3-4 weeks at rehearsals again. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-08 00:41
Ed I disagree with you.Tom's method works extremely well for me and hardly any of my reeds warp at all. Using the Vitalizer does not improve my reeds and is waste of money. If my reeds are too dry I sometimes use a sponge inside the freezer bag with zip I put my reed case in.
Before I learned balancing my reeds with the ATG system and not just with a knife rotating the mouthpiece and shave each side with sometimes ok result and most often with not too good result my reeds changed a lot from day to day and they didn't last as long.
Since I began to use Tom's method and the ATG system about 2 years ago and putting the reedcase in a plastic freezer bag I have had 2 or 3 reeds at most warp and I've gone through at least 13-15 boxes.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-03-08 01:53
I have been trying out his method for a week now. None of my reeds have changed. i have used the same reeds all week long for rehearsals and pratice and have had no problems. However, I will post in this thread again in a couple weeks and update you guys on my progress
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-08 04:26
Ice, I have nothing against Tom's ATG system, I own one myself, I just said I don't think he really taught anything from these videos. I'm not surprised that the Vitalizer doesn't improve your reeds, it's not supposed to. What it does is keep them stable if you use them correctly. I have five of them in five different freezer bags where I store my reeds, each one of them has lasted well over a year now and going strong because I never let them sit out in the air. I never have to worry about mold or forgetting to wet my sponge or my dampit, though I do keep some dampits in my clarinet cases. If you expected them to improve your reeds you would of course been very disappointed. Although I prefer a reed knife for reasons I've stated many times before I think the ATG tool is fine for those that don't feel comfortable using a knife or can't adjust their reeds as well as I do with one.
All four of us in the Baltimore Symphony use the Vitalizer as well as thousands of others around the world but that doesn't mean that's the only method to keep your reeds humidity controlled, After all, I did that using dampits and or sponges for years before the vitalizer was invented. Whatever works for you. But there's no doubt in my mind that keeping your reeds humidity controlled helps stabilize your reeds no matter what Tom implies. I have reeds that are over two years old that have remained stable all that time in the bag with the vitalizer, I only use those reeds for certain chamber music performances 5-6 times a year. And just a reminder, I've not had a warped reed for over 25 years, period. I hope your method works for you nearly as well as mine does for me. ESP
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-03-08 10:41
I do have a few further comments on the exchanges above and I hope they are taken in the friendly spirit they are presented. Ed: I think you do come off a bit edgy. You say you don't sell anything but I do believe you are a teacher and somewhere along the line I got the impression that you were associated with Rico in some way. We all have our special interests.
Tom has his own personal way of teaching and I think his reputation is well established. If he repeats some things I'm inclined to think it's part of his method.
Tom established long ago the importance of reed balancing in his respected book.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-03-08 12:28
I tried to buy into the Ridenour methods but that booklet is so badly-written that I couldn't make any sense of it. I found the video necessary to understand the method at all. Tried it for awhile, then decided, eh, I'm only an amateur anyway, the hell with this -- if a little bit of sandpaper or reed rush won't fix this reed, it gets the wall-test. Bye-bye.
Btw, in the lighthearted murder mystery movie, SONG OF THE THIN MAN (1947, with Myrna Loy and William Powell), set in the world of jazz musicians, check out the scene where the detective interviews band members while, in the background, a clarinet player busily whittles on his reed.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-03-08 12:29)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-08 12:47
Bob, I'm sorry I sounded "edgy", it's a thing I have with Iceland, sometimes he's so dogmatic I like to tease him about it. I am an uncompensated Rico performer, though I make my own reeds as well. And by the way, I'm retiring from institutional teaching the end of this semester. It's really just that I believe so strongly in humidity control and the Vitalizer. I, and the rest of my section here in Baltimore use the vitalizer but I'm the ONLY one that plays Rico reeds. We just all find the vitalizer works so well to stabilize our reeds. As I said, that doesn't mean other methods don't work but humidity control helps stabilize reeds and I am such a firm believer in that, I always was far before the vitalizer was invented. As far as Toms reed adjusting goes, I believe I said that some of his other videos give more information of how he likes to adjust reeds, I just didn't think this one did it for me. As I said, he mentioned the term "balancing" over and over but did not show how or say what that meant "in this video". Sorry if I came off "edgy" it's one of the things I feel so strongly about. ESP
PS. What ever method you use, if it works for you then that's the way to go. If it ain't broken then don't fix it. By the way, I've never said the ATG tool didn't work.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-03-09 00:58)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-08 13:46
Why were my reeds not stable before I started to use the ATG system ? Why do they last longer ? And how come I only bought it once and then never again so it's virtually free to use it?
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-08 18:53
Clarimeister wrote:
Quote:
I have been trying out his method for a week now. None of my reeds have changed. i have used the same reeds all week long for rehearsals and pratice and have had no problems.
Me, too. I've been using the same reed all week and haven't noticed any change in the reed's behavior. I balanced it right out of the box like he says to do in the video. I didn't try putting my mouthpiece in a plastic bag, but I did try leaving the reed on the mouthpiece and experienced no ill effects as a result (I had never tried that before, believe it or not).
I think the key here is to make sure the reed is not just balanced, but balanced *well*. Tom's variation on the side-to-side test, where you play a sforzando/decrescendo helps with this. You have to make sure that you really get a nice "ring" in the sound when you do the decrescendo. Even if it seems to speak OK, if it sounds a tad dull when you do the test, it's still slightly unbalanced--take a little wood off the dull-sounding side and try again.
Before watching these couple of videos, I think I had been a little too conservative in my approach to reed work. Basically, I sort of viewed reed balancing as no more than a way to make unplayable reeds playable. Because so many reeds you buy are so far out of balance that they are extremely fuzzy or even unresponsive on one side, I'd basically balance them to the point that they'd speak OK on both sides and leave it at that, not wanting to take too much off, because you can't put it back.
This week, though, I took a reed out of the box that spoke OK out of both sides, but that (after following Tom's side-to-side test [described in the ATG kit] to the letter and listening carefully) seemed a little duller in tone on one side than the other. It also responded decently when playing normally, but felt just a little "unsettled" or "unstable" like so many fresh-from-the-box reeds (including the playable ones) do. I took a little wood off the dull side and all of a sudden it played like a really good, fully broken-in reed.
I played a concert on it on Saturday with some very delicate clarion/altissimo cross-register slurring in it, and the reed behaved itself very well. I was impressed.
As happy as I am with the results I am getting now (from balancing the reed straight out of the box, as well as using ATG), though, I can't be completely honest about my experiences without expressing some agreement with Lelia's comments about the instructional materials included with the ATG kit. I felt they were lacking in some areas and, as Lelia pointed out, the book is not particularly well written. And as with many of Tom's YouTube videos you have to wade through some extraneous "fluff" to get to the useful information. After reading the booklet and watching the DVD several times I still don't feel I really understand when to use reed finishing techniques 4 and 5 (where you you work just at the tip corners), for instance. Maybe I should write to him and ask him to explain in a future YouTube video!
That being said, I still like ATG and I still use my ATG kit to do reed work--although to do what Tom is describing in these couple of YouTube videos, you could simply use a knife, reed rush, or plain sandpaper instead. In any case, given my experience over the past week (admittedly limited), I am inclined to believe that there is merit to the idea that one should not wait for the reed to be "broken in" before getting it in balance.
And I feel like such a rebel leaving my reed on the mouthpiece!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-03-09 11:32
No problem Ed....and good luck on your "retirement"...
There are many old hoary "rule of thumb" rules about clarinet equipment and playing that still require rethinking. When I read about Pro players who sift through boxes of reeds until they find the right one I wonder if that is the "one" that was balanced by the factory.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-03-09 18:19
There is a video about David Sanborn on youtube. Same thing....keep reed on mouthpiece(good reed) with cap in a bag. Sanborn travels all over the world and has to perform. He keeps that reed on until it dies.
Freelance woodwind performer
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