 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-02-23 21:38
I am test playing a Yamaha CSG; my McClune's play somewhat flat on it, altho one SP and an SPE are pretty good; I hear the VD M-30 works pretty well too. Suggestions? I like to tune at 440 with my ensemble, band etc.
The instrument is pretty darned good right out of the box and the price/quality is very good. Thanks for any insight.
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-02-24 03:36
I play a Grabner K11 on mine. With the 56 mm barrel the clarinet is right on 440 warmed up, and won't allow for resonance fingerings on the throat notes. With the 54 mm, I have to pull out a bit, and I don't like the sound as much.
My $0.02...
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2010-02-24 05:38
I have played mainly Vandoren B40 Lyres (with V12 3.5s) on my CSGHs for almost 2 years with excellent tone, intonation (@ A440) and response using the stock barrels. I also have a Greg Smith (Chedeville) 1+ that has fine intonation, but tunes a bit higher, requiring pulling out perhaps 1 mm.
Early on, I used M30s (with V12 4.0s) with my CSGHs, but they tended to tune a bit low, so I bought (Yamaha) 53.8 and 54.8 mm barrels to bring them up to pitch. These have also proven helpful whenever its cold or I have to play without adequate warmup. Be aware that like mouthpieces, these barrels can vary a lot, so try a few before keeping any.
I have made A-B recordings on my CSGs using both the M30 and the B40 Lyre and although I love the feel of the M30, the B40 Lyre tunes better and (to my and others ears) produces a bigger/better sound. I also find them to be very reed-friendly.
Enjoy your CSG! I think they are great instruments, especially when you consider cost.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-24 10:27
I use the shortest available barrel, 53.4 and have "chopped" down my Greg Smith.
Bottom line, use a sharper mouthpiece (Vandoren NON 13 series) and/or the shortest barrel.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2010-02-24 15:27
I think any mouthpiece made from a Zinner blank works fine. Wodkowski and Hawkins are good to try first. Interestingly, last week Ramon Wodkowski made a Kaspar style facing on the stock blank that came with the Yamaha. Turns out that it's a pretty darn good blank to begin with.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-02-24 17:02
I'm warming to one of my Mclune sp's made on Zinner blanks, may be just fine; but am also going to try an M-30 to see how it works also; Not sure what lengths the stock barrels are but am using the shorter of the two. Am asking Yamaha to tell me what they are; anyone know?
I called Yamaha; they say the stock barrels are: 56.3 and 54.8; I'm using the shorter 54.8 one on all my present mp's
Post Edited (2010-02-24 19:28)
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2010-02-24 17:25
The "standard" barrel should be 56.5mm.
You can google "yamaha CSG tuning barrels" to find the ones to which I was referring. According to Scott Kurtzweil, these were made for WWBW in cooperation with Yamaha. These come in 57.3/54.8/53.8 mm lengths.
They work well, but vary considerably in tone quality. My 53.8 has an open/brilliant sound and I tend to use it on my A clarinet. My 54.8 has a more dense/covered sound and I use that sometimes on my Bb.
I must say that I prefer the sound and feel of the stock barrels over these "tuning" barrels, possibly because they are also Hamilton plated.
I know that Backun also makes a ringless barrel for the CSG. However, I believe it only comes in the standard 56.5 mm length.
Paul can also comment on a barrel from Dr. Allan Segal that he uses.
Bob
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-24 18:29
I have several of his mouthpieces and have never noticed that they played flat. I suggest you play the mouthpiece you like the most and try some shorter barrels. Also remember, two players can play the same equipment and each can tune differently. One may voice high and the other may voice low. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-24 19:09
I do use Dr. Alan Segal's "Fat Boy" style barrel at a 54mm length mostly - it has an understated elegance that buoys the timbre.
My understanding is that upon introduction to the American market Yamaha did a fairly extensive polling of accomplished clarinetists to arrive at the "standard" size they provide with the horns. To me that just means, "they didn't ask me."
I CAN use sharper moutpieces with the 56.4 (such as my ebony Pomarico 1L) but the barrel is almost completey pushed in, with little headroom for pitch fluctuations. In a different thread, Simon Aldrich refered to the fact that it is easier to tune DOWN to pitch than up. I call it HEADROOM. If the clarinet is that close to "in tune" with all the joints pushed in, your chances of being flat (particularly at louder volumes) is increased 10 fold.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-02-24 23:35
Ed in one of Tom Ridenour's youtube videos he talks about the tragic case of a clarinetist who instead of looking at the cause they look at the result. And he always talks about the importance of high tongue position. So are you saying that one may voice low(play incorrect) and one may voice high(play correct). I mean if you voice low it's impossible to play high and soft.
The video I'm referring to is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ebPMFsTik8&feature=related
And in another one he talks about a clarinetist who gets the tuning well on a faulty clarinet gets the tuning all over the place on very well tuned Leblanc Concerto clarinet simply by playing incorrectly with a low tongue position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1pH6KfXoYc&feature=related
But the question should be does the mouthpiece play flat on the CSG in all register from bottom to top or just in certain registers(special notes) ?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-25 11:49
Ok, quite simply the mouthpiece is the ORIGINATING sound generator.
If your pitch is HIGHER from your source, the notes at the physical top of the horn will out of necessity be closer together (and not evenly mind you) and higher. This will throw off the twelfths dramatically.
Another good way to experience "a problem," is to try a Boosey and Hawkes 1010 mouthpiece on ANY OTHER HORN. The 1010 mouthpiece is constructed with a cylindrical bore so the VOLUME of air in the mouthpiece is greater and the acoustic configuration is wrong for any other clarinet.
So, with this mouthpiece anyone can see for themselves just how erratic the tuning becomes internally.
This of course is an extreme example, but the variations of internal dimensions (mainly the tone chamber - the area between the reed and the bore) can be as different as the tuning issues they cause.
"Voicing" is really just a name for HOW the air approaches the openning of the mouthpiece. As long as your "voicing" enables the QUICKEST and THINNEST stream of air (for a solid, rich sound), I see no problem with changing this, but I don't personally see it as a way to correct issues with a mouthpiece created problem.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-03-02 14:59
Followup: My McClune SP is working out well with the shorter barrel now; maybe the horn just needed a week or two of breakin , not sure ; but it is now right on! Ordered another shorter tuning barrel to try and an M30 MP to test it on the horn. So this is good news for me! Leaning towards keeping it .
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Author: gwie
Date: 2010-03-02 15:26
Wow, interesting statistics from this thread so far!
I play Grabner's K11 on my CSG's, but with Backun 56.5 (marked 57) barrels. By the time I warm up, I'm usually pulling out a tiny bit, but when I start out cold I'm usually dead on tuning pitch (at 440).
On a somewhat-related note...thanks for the recommendation to try the CSG, Justin! I sent my old pair of R-13's off to a student not even a day later and I have never looked back.
Post Edited (2010-03-02 15:31)
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-03-02 16:40
How do I keep two woodies though if I keep it? !!!!; I have to go away two months in summer and don't want to take Yammy and R-13, as I take a Yammy plastic for outside etc. Hmmmm, maybe leave the R-13 home and gently rebreak it in ? Ughh, don't like that idea -----
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-02 22:09
Paul Aviles said:
""Voicing" is really just a name for HOW the air approaches the openning of the mouthpiece. As long as your "voicing" enables the QUICKEST and THINNEST stream of air (for a solid, rich sound), I see no problem with changing this, but I don't personally see it as a way to correct issues with a mouthpiece created problem."
How do you know that without knowing the player or seen him play ?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-02 22:36
Because if you don't use the most efficient, thinnest, quickest stream of air, YOU will not sound up to your maximum potential - no matter who you are or how you sound now.
...............Paul Aviles
PS Caveat to you international folks. I realize that the British approach made a big dea of the "AHHHHH" formation for the tongue, but perhaps not so much these days
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-03-02 22:52
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Because if you don't use the most efficient, thinnest, quickest
> stream of air, YOU will not sound up to your maximum potential
> - no matter who you are or how you sound now.
>
>
>
> ...............Paul Aviles
>
Paul, I find this statement so simplistic as to almost rate no response, and your statement above as to voicing just flat out wrong!
Voicing involves a lot more than some stream of air that's hardly got any real velocity "aimed" at a mouthpiece. There's a lot of oral cavity and tongue manipulation going on on every note - at least ther is if you're any good. You may have a mental picture that the only thing you're doing is "focussing" an air stream that you really can't focus, and if that mental picture works, great, but look in the mirror someday, concentrating on your throat, and you might see something you weren't even aware of.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-02 23:59
In fact players like Walter Boeykens talks about the vocabulary of the clarinet in aprox each register of the clarinet and lip pressure too.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-03 00:39
I'm looking at voicing more and more skeptically as we go along here. I am not above self experimentation and was made quite curious by Tom Ridenours contention that "voicing" can change pitch as dramatically as 20 cents or more.
As I look into this more on my own playing (probably sounding more like an animal caught in a trap to my peers) I am tending to believe that this "voicing thing" is a function of the lip pressure and precise areas of that lip pressure that is in fact making the real change in pitch. When I am honest about the sound and pitch versus the postion of my tongue.......
...........wait for it.................. here it comes.................
I do NOT find ANY pitch variance at all !!!
As we fly around the clarinet with massive leaps, we ALL know that the less changes from note to note we need to do physically the better. If we are truly making all these wild changes in throat/tongue postions, aren't we making the process less efficient?
Too bad we can't get Carbonare or Morales to comment on this one.
Tony Pay, where are you?????
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-03 01:39
If you use "E" sound with your tongue on the bottom notes with lot of lip pressure you will not sound too good. If you do that in the high register you will make a good sound and the notes will actually play specially very soft. If you on the other hand use a lot of air and "O" sound in the bottom register with more relaxed(we are not talking about huge difference) then you will sound much warmer down there.
Imaging for example playing the opening of the third movement of the Saint-Saen's sonata with very fast air,lot of lip pressure and "E" sound with your tongue.
Would not sound too nice.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-03 10:04
I don't imagine............that's how it's done.
..................Paul Aviles
P.S. But with deference to the "International" crowd, this is the Mid-Western (US) school of playing (your Marcelluses, Brodys and Combses) as handed down via Bonade.
Post Edited (2010-03-03 12:11)
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-03-03 13:15
In spite of all these techinical , theoretical, mechanical ? issues, I now sound fine on mine thru the registers with the David McClune SP MP and can tune to 440 which was my concern. I was merely wondering what CSG players were finding with their various mp's. Now I know a LOT about "voicing" as well! Wow! LOL
Just teasing frends. thanks for all the info, may I hear others experiences with their MP"s and CSG?? And how you think your CSG compares to your R-13? I find the ergonomics very similar for what that's worth. I could not get used to any LeBlanc previously as they seemed to cramp my larger hands.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-04 02:52
ICA magazines always have ads "**** ****** plays Yamaha". I've seen him play live, and I've seen his set of buffets....
I've met a handful of yamaha performing artists and seen them play, but only seen them play buffets.....
I hope to find one eventually that actually plays yamahas when it counts.
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-03-04 03:04
> I hope to find one eventually that actually plays yamahas when it counts.
I'll let you know next time I'm playing.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-04 13:33
David Niethamer wrote:
> I'll let you know next time I'm playing.
That's one! =)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-04 15:21
I only play on Buffets outside when its cold an rainy.
..........that's two.
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2010-03-04 18:49
Voicing by using the throat and it's muscles is a common way for many clarinetists to alter and change pitch. It is common practice for most orchestral players to use throat as well, and in some music it is a must...
I would hasten to add you have to look at playing from all aspects..the throat, the diaphram, and the emoubouchure are interconnected. Each one affects the sound in some way...this can be brought in to bear on helping or coaxing some sharp notes down and flatish pitches upward.
Voicing or in some cases e change the tonal color a great deal. If we play with one type of sound for everything we lack imagination..
a high note or sharp pitched note can be voiced down by relaxing the back of throat somewhat. As for me I can alter on some notes by as far as 10 cents either way...! This without emoubochure...and in the throat register much easier than say the treble clef C.
Glissandos suchs as Rhapsody in Blue are also assisted by the slight alteration of the throat especailly towards the end of this gliss.
David Dow
Post Edited (2010-03-04 18:51)
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-03-04 19:27
Well how come my new CSG voices for me ???
I'm getting serious about this one; not sure I can send it back (it's on trial); but then, should I keep my R-13>??????
BTW: a new VD M-30 Traditional works fine on it for me also! Waaaay cool!
Shall I keep the R-13 ?????
Post Edited (2010-03-04 19:28)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-05 00:13
Just for the record. Are you guys official yamaha performing artists? (Like Bill Jackson..etc.) or just happen to play yamaha?
If yamaha works for you and sounds the way you want, I have no objection to it. Just find it funny that two of the most prominent clarinetists I've met are yamaha performing artists but play buffets.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-05 12:35
So which clarinet does Dale Earnhardt Jr. play? I'll play that.
...........Paul Aviles
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