 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-17 23:40
I was discussing the 13 series mouthpieces with Robert Crowley today, noting that they need to be shortened to play up to 442. He also mentioned that in shortening them on a lathe, it is possible to have the mouthpiece shatter (as did one of his mouthpieces).
Has anyone here had the problem of being too low with these mouthpieces?
Anyone had them shortened, and if so- how and to what result?
Is anyone aware of other methods of shortening them or bringing up the pitch?
Thanks!
NOTE: The M13, M13 lyre, and M14 are all unavailable in a 442 version. I should have stated that in original post, sorry.
I personal prefer the M13 lyre and M14 over the other available facings.
Post Edited (2010-02-18 00:11)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DAVE
Date: 2010-02-17 23:49
The whole point of the 13 series mouthpiece is that it plays closer to 440. Why in the world would you want to change that? There are plenty of other mouthpieces that will play at 442.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2010-02-18 00:48
Play the 13 series with a 1mm shorter barrel - that's the standard acoustical remedy for raising the overall pitch center.
You therefore won't change the exit bore dimensions by avoiding trimming the mouthpiece (unless that's what you are particularly interested in accomplishing for some reason).
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OmarHo
Date: 2010-02-18 02:03
Call me a little crazy, but I shortened an M30 that was too low (13 series). It just trimmed a little off the end, and it pretty much brought me up to 440. Possibly just my imagination, but I think by fluke, I also made the mouthpiece more responsive by doing that.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-18 11:11
This is an old gripe for me, so please forgive my prattling on about it....
HOWEVER,
Many many of today's mouthpieces try to achieve a "richer tone," "darker sound," or "American Pitch" by making the TONE CHAMBER much bigger than what used to be standard some forty years ago. Most of you can experience what this means to internal pitch if you just try out your Buffet stock mouthpiece (still made to those "old" standards).
I have had a BIG volume tone chamber mouthpiece shortened, and this does bring the pitch up slightly. But shortening the length does not change the overall characteristics of the way it plays, which to me has been doing a great disservice to clarinet players today. All we do is struggle with the twelfths on our Buffets to no end, buying all sort of after market barrels to fix what starts in a mouthpiece marketed to us to sound "darker."
Those that don't are Pomarico, Portnoy, Hawkins, the none 13 Series Vandorens. There may be others but the dominant designs on the market are poorly engineered for the accoustics of the instrument...... in my opinion.
.................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-02-18 11:24
Greg is correct, The best way to use get 442 on a 13 series is to buy a shorter barrel.
Yes, cutting it with a lathe is an option, but you risk damaging the mouthpiece if the person doing the cutting is not skilled. Even if they are good at what they do, mistakes can happen and there is no need to go through all that trouble when getting a short barrel takes care of all that.
Further, you can never "go back" after cutting it. If you get a short barrel and one day decide you don't like it, you can just use the original barrel again.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-18 17:17
I too agree with Greg, if you love the MP I too suggest getting a shorter barrel though I think you may need 2m shorter but you should try several anyway because all barrels, and MPs, will play slightly different. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-18 17:26
I've shortened several mouthpieces that were too low to play at 442. I didn't notice any difference to the playing characteristics, only a slight raising of pitch, which had exactly the same effect as playing with a shorter barrel. Both shortening the mouthpiece or playing with a shorter barrel have more effect on the shorter notes than the long notes, so your throat notes will be most affected.
So from my experience I can't see any reason not to do this. Sure, you could buy new barrels, but if you're happy with the barrels that you play on for A, B-flat (and in my case C) clarinets, then the easiest solution is to shorten the mouthpiece. I found taking 1 millimeter off to be enough. I had my tech do it.
I think someone told me that Andrew Marriner plays on a shortened Vandoren 13 series mouthpiece because he prefers it their 442 version. But I could be wrong about this. Anyone from the UK know more?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SVSorna05
Date: 2010-02-19 01:43
Hey Nathan....Tim Clark once told me that he works on m13lyres to bring the pitch up as I had that problem with the pitch sagging...you might want to give him a call...Hope all is well!
-Dain-
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-02-19 16:25
Hi Nathan - I have had several mouthpieces shortened in Montreal. After having two mouthpieces shattered on the lathe at one store, I now have low mpcs (like series 13) shortened by Gary at Twigg. I cover the top half of the mpc in electrical tape to protect it. No broken mpcs yet with Gary.
Those were the facts, now for the opinions...
I hear legions of clarinets on a regular basis; in entrance auditions, juries, clarinet choir, lessons, etc. When a student is flat, particularly in the throat tones, I ask what mouthpiece they are playing on. More often than not it is a series 13.
At recent entrance auditions, every single candidate was very flat. Yes the hall was cold, yes the piano was at 441 but these are unfortunately real-world playing conditions. I did scores of performances of Quartet for the End of Time across Canada during winter last year and nearly all the halls were cold. The Hall in Calgary was 15 C (59 F) even though the thermostat was set at 27 C (81 F). I was on a sharp mouthpiece pushed all the way in and I was only making it up to the piano. It was a good hall (at the Univ of Alberta) but backstage was freezing and the hall was freezing. It was impossible to get the clarinet warm. Often these are the conditions of a non-orchestral hall.
My point is that one needs a lot of leeway with regard to pitch, particularly in cold climates. One does not always play in warm orchestra halls.
Because of this I cannot see that a solution to raising the pitch on a mouthpiece as low as the series 13 is simply to get a shorter barrel. I have a good series 13 M15 that I used for years. It was shortened by almost 2 mm. On A clarinet I still need a 64 mm barrel for those times when the hall is very cold and I have to switch to a cold A clarinet. If the mouthpiece had not been shortened I would need a 62 mm barrel. I don't want to appear to disagree with Greg Smith. Using a shorter barrel is a lot more sensible than doing something as intrusive and potentially destructive as shortening the mouthpiece, but I hear many students that use a series 13 mpc who are already on short barrels (65 and 64 mm) and they are often still very flat.
As an aside, from my own experience I can see why someone might be attracted to a series 13 mouthpiece. But in real-world settings I have learned that I am playing with fire, playing on such a low mouthpiece. One summer I played an M15 series 13 and I felt right on, pitch-wise. No more constant shading down of the sharp notes. My conductor made a couple of comments now and again that I was flat. I knew *technically* I wasn't flat tuner-wise, but there are more factors that affect sounding in-tune than simply pitch. I find the series 13 mpcs have an intrinsic lower voicing than the non-series 13. I suspect it might be the deeper baffle they put on the series 13 that creates more "aahh" as opposed to "eee" in the series 13 sound. This "aahh" in the voicing can create the impression of lower pitch. Perhaps my conductor was picking up on this - less shimmer, more hollowness, fewer overtones in the sound, all conspiring to create the *perception* of flatness.
In a warm hall with my orchestral colleagues I know exactly where the pitch is. My barrels are always pulled out to the same length. But those are ideal playing conditions. Outside of orchestra all bets are off. I need to have a setup that allows me to match a piano at 442 in a freezing hall because it happens all the time. Until this happens to a player on a regular basis, I don't think he/she fully realizes the need for this "pitch headroom", the need for leaving room to maneuver upwards in pitch.
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-19 19:12
Professor Aldrich, I figured you would come out of the woodwork on this topic!
I believe you called me out on it during my recital last year, when my throat Bb was a few cents low in the first line of Brahms 2nd sonata.
I agree with you that many (perhaps most) of the 13 series mouthpieces have this "ahhh" quality in the voicing. Many times this is due to 1) poor quality control or selection of mouthpiece 2) poor voicing from the player 3) a reed that is too thin\soft. If a player is aware of these problems, they can usually compensate pretty well for them (similarly to compensating for sharpness in a traditional vandoren).
The tonal concept of the 13 series is no doubt a darker and more mellow sound. I don't think that's really up for debate (much...) and requires slightly different playing mechanics than a traditional vandoren.
On the other hand, I have heard many people play traditional vandorens and been INCREDIBLY sharp. Playing 30-35 cents high in some places and 20 cents low in others because they've pulled the barrel out so far to compensate for sharpness that the SCALE of the clarinet is no longer true.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Sylvain
Date: 2010-02-19 21:41
Here is the bottom line.
Assuming one is equipped with a good set of ears, it is usually much easier to bring the pitch down on clarinet than pulling it up.
Now whether you make a mouthpiece shorter or get a shorter set of barrels is well, pretty much teh same.
As for how aahh vs eee impacts tuning, this is our of my realm but would to learn more.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan25
Date: 2010-02-19 22:36
"The tonal concept of the 13 series is no doubt a darker and more mellow sound. I don't think that's really up for debate (much...) and requires slightly different playing mechanics than a traditional vandoren."
I'm not sure why you think this. Some of the "brightest" sounding players I know or have heard play or have played 13 series mouthpieces including big time pros. There is simply no way to make a comment like this. Maybe for you the 13 series mouthpieces are darker and more mellow but this simply isn't true for everyone. Also, I have many friends who play traditional pitch Vandorens and have incredibly dark sounds. The 13 series is a design based on pitch center not tone color; "tonal concept" seems a rather strange way of discussing the mouthpiece when the goal of the 13 series was to play at 440 not to create a more mellow tone color.
The facing of a Vandoren can have a pronounced effect of the tone color, for example, the B40 and B45. As far as I know, they are the same mouthpiece but the B40 has wider tip and side rails which helps produce a more mellow sound. This is much more true than saying all 13 series mouthpieces have the tonal concept of mellow and thus require a different style of playing. I play a 13 series mouthpiece and my tone is anything but mellow.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-02-19 23:39
Hi Nathan
>I agree with you that many (perhaps most) of the 13 series mouthpieces >have this "ahhh" quality in the voicing. Many times this is due to 1) poor >quality control or selection of mouthpiece
I am not sure I agree with that. Yes, Vandoren mpc quality control might be all over the map but that doesn't change an *intrinsic* quality in a mouthpiece. I have noticed in mpcs with deeper baffles a propensity for "aahh". Interestingly sometimes it's a good type of "aahh" (like in some Zinner-blank models) and sometimes it's simply a droopy, doleful, lonely "aahh". I use the word lonely because on more than one occasion I have seen a music critic refer to the clarinet as "that loneliest of woodwind instruments". A flat mouthpiece with a cheerless voicing can't boost that reputation.
>2) poor voicing from the player
Agreed, a player has to voice well. But experience suggests that if an inherent low voicing is an indelible feature of the mouthpiece, the player will always be up against that quality. In other words that quality will make its presence felt from time to time.
3) a reed that is too thin\soft.
This is the point I disagree with most. I had a a chamber music recital last night in which I was playing in all 5 pieces. It was my fourth "service" of the day. At that point in the day, with muscle-fatigue in the mouth what it is, I should not have to use a harder reed to fight the effects of a low and weary-voiced mpc. Using hard reeds to combat shortcomings or negative qualities in a mpc is lethal, in my opinion.
>If a player is aware of these problems, they can usually compensate pretty >well for them
Agreed. But I am more concerned with the fact that everyone I have heard play a series 13 has been too flat in their playing circumstance. I am not talking about an experienced clarinetist in a warm hall in the controlled environment of an orchestra. I am talking about players in recital, audition, jury, clarinet choir, etc where that player can not control the pitch he/she has to match.
The crux of what I am saying is that there is a reason your teacher and I get low-pitched mpcs like series 13s shortened: because they are too low for our orchestral demands. Outside of orchestra the pitch diapason can be even higher so one must have "upward mobility". The series 13 does not provide that so the player is often left to sound flat the whole concert.
>The tonal concept of the 13 series is no doubt a darker and more mellow >sound..... and requires slightly different playing mechanics than a traditional >vandoren.
I have not yet witnessed the flatness of the throat tones in a series 13 mpc rectified by different playing mechanics to the point where they are in tune. As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am only calling it as I see it (or rather hear it). If I ever hear a recital on a non-shortened series 13 in which the player is not constantly flat in the throat tones I will change my opinion.
As an aside, I find the series 13 particularly disposed to being shortened. It is the throat tones of the series 13 that are especially flat. As others have mentioned in this thread, shortening the mouthpiece affects the throat tones disproportionately more. Which is a good thing since the series 13 throat tones are disproportionately flat in the mouthpiece's scale.
Given all the recitals etc I have heard in which every time the player goes into the throat tones he/she is very flat, I think it is fair to say that one risks experiencing the same problem all the time playing on a non-shortened series 13 mpc in a cold-hall, 442+ world.
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-19 23:45
The tonal differences between the 13 series and traditional are distinct. There is no way to change the internal dimensions to lower the pitch without changing the sound. Adjusting the baffle and\or bore will change the playing characteristics.
This is not to say that all players will have a mellow sound, or will be flat, playing these mouthpieces. Nor will all players be bright sounding playing a traditional vandoren.
THe mouthpiece simply favors lower pitch and by doing that makes the mouthpiece favor certain other characteristics in tone (mellow, "ahhh" sound). It doesn't mean no one can sound bright or well voiced on them.
Saying "I heard someone play in tune in the throat tones on a 13 series mouthpiece" would not negate the fact that Mr. Adrich has heard many players play quite low in this range that was caused or exacerbated by this design.
Post Edited (2010-02-19 23:47)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-20 00:15
Simon,
"This is the point I disagree with most. I had a a chamber music recital last night in which I was playing in all 5 pieces. It was my fourth "service" of the day. At that point in the day, with muscle-fatigue in the mouth what it is, I should not have to use a harder reed to fight the effects of a low and weary-voiced mpc. Using hard reeds to combat shortcomings or negative qualities in a mpc is lethal, in my opinion."
To clarify, I didn't mean to say that one should use a HARD reed. Nor did I mean that you cannot use a soft reed (For M13-M13lyre-M15 I would consider a V12 3.5 to be on the softer side, 4 to be on the harder side) and have a well playing setup.
All I mean to say is that many people, especially students, are not AWARE that their reeds have gotten too soft and are allowing them to blow much lower than the mouthpiece would otherwise.
On the note of pitch mobility, it is near impossible to play a normal barrel (66mm) and a 13 series and play with an orchestra that starts at 442 and only climbs.
What zinners have had the "ahh" quality that you found to be attractive? (Simon)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2010-02-21 01:04
Excellent remarks here by Simon. I agree completely with the barrell being the easiest way to correct issues. Altering a mouthpiece by chopping it is radical and may in the long run be just too costly if not done correctly. Then is is waste material.
Has anyone noticed as well how low the throat notes are on the new Buffets..well do we just chop a part of the upper joint off. For me this is a greater challenge than the mouthpiece problem alluded to here in the post..thats another thread.
Blaming pitch problems on a mouthpiece means somewhere in the teaching process has gone wrong. Either the student needs to learn how to adapt reeds to a specific facing, or find a mouthpiece that enables him/her to use reeds they currently find easy to play. I have encountered students who play very sharp on Vandoren M30s which always play low for me...again reed and methods playing have to be fine tuned in the teaching process.
5RVLYre 13 , M13, M15, M30 and M13 Lyre do play very different from one another.
of the 13 series subset..I find the M13s and M15s play alot sharper. On top of that with my students I will help choose the mouthpiece when a tuning problem occurs. Sadly most teachers don't really care or investigate what can work. THE ligature plays a huge role in pitch as well so the variables are endless.
Michael Collins play(ed) on B4013s and told me after a concert it plays perfectly in tune for him. He also said he spent a bit of time choosing rather than just jump into it..and he said he tends to play sharp! He also practices a heckuva alot too...
As to voicing the Vandorens do have a distinctly different zing on the tone. But after a while one sounds how one conceptualizes what they are after no matter.
As for tuning a number of parameters affect clarinets differently. Is the room cold, is the clarinet warmed up properly, is the reed matched well to the facing>? Does the clarinetist use a specific embouchure...>? Is the group tending to play low or sharp..is the piano in tune..when alone does the clarinetist match octaves in daily practice etc.
Does the clarinetist know when they are flat..? Solfege is so helpful here. Clarinet playing problems can be as complex as singing problems for vocal students. Equipment requires one be equipped to overcome it..
Flatness
David Dow
Post Edited (2010-02-21 01:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-22 17:02
Many GREAT comments from NBeaty and Simon Aldrich.
Can I just ask ALL of you to just buzz on the mouthpieces in question (sans clarinet) into a good tuner and see for yourself what the difference in pitch truly is.
This has such a VAST effect on the internal pitch of a horn. It is a little too general to say "a student can play sharp on a 13 Series." Really? Which area of the horn? Which notes? Do you know why?
Collins may in fact be able to sound beautifully on a low pitch mouthpiece, but as we all have said repetedly, EARS and great ability make a difference.
But do all of you teachers feel comfortable putting your students into a situation where they have to dig themselves out of a tuning problem????
..............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-22 17:39
> But do all of you teachers feel comfortable putting your
> students into a situation where they have to dig themselves out
> of a tuning problem????
Playing clarinet IS digging yourself out of a tuning problem =)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-24 14:02
I just wrote as an OP about this topic looking for some of the answers this amazing thread provided me with. However, the M13 Lire (series 13) I just chose for ease of playing is very flat on the tuning meter with my standard Buffet R13 original 66mm barrel. It sure sounds like going to a shorter barrel will bring the tuning up, but is there another series of M13Lire I should try first?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-03-24 14:48
I shortened my 13 series M15 so my other clarinets with 67mm barrels could be played up to pitch (and I don't want to shorten older Selmer barrels as they're hard to come by), and now regret it as the most recent set of Series 9* clarinets I've got have much shorter barrels than I'm used to, so the 13 series in its original state would probably have worked well with these in bringing the pitch down.
But then again it's not as if I wouldn't be able to find another 13 series M15, and I can at least try them to see if they will lower the pitch sufficiently.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-24 15:11
buit15 - In your first posting (in the "Vandoren M Series Mouthpiece Tuning Problem" thread) I was just about to refer you to this older thread, but I see you found it yourself.
The problem you describe (which is with Series 13 mpcs, not the M mpcs) is a true plague for teachers like myself who hear many students in audition and recital.
As you mention in your post on the other thread, the real world tuning of these "440" mouthpieces is below 440.
The orchestras I play with *start* at 442. The pianos in the universities at which I teach are at 441. Which means when it is cold the player on a Series 13 mpc sounds up to a quarter-tone flat in the flat regions (throat tones on a Series 13 mpc). And they never get up to pitch. Which means listening to a 2-hour recital where the player is flat the whole time, particularly in the throat tones. Halls in northern climates are more often cold than warm so you need upward mobility pitch-wise in a mpc.
Many people like the M13Lyre, but it comes only in Series 13. In that case I recommend having it shortened by 1.75 mm. At 2 mm you lower the point at which the cork is centered on the mpc tenon too much and the mpc can start to rock because the cork is disproportionately low on the mpc tenon.
I have had several Series 13 mpcs successfully shortened by 1.75 mm. Despite the higher pitch (and, thankfully, higher throat tones) you are left with the attendant lower voicing and hollow "aahh" in the sound but as mentioned above, some people like this and some can counteract it to a certain degree with mechanics (high tongue, fast air stream, etc).
In my experience a shorter barrel is not the answer, unless you can get a 62 mm barrel for A clarinet (using an R13 as a reference). Yes, playing on a 64 mm barrel will immediately solve the pitch issues on Bb clarinet. But often you have to pick up a cold A clarinet and play in tune, which obliges a very short barrel for A clarinet if you are on a Series 13 mpc.
Issues of sound quality aside, the pitch of a Series 13 mpc renders it an impractical and professionally unwise mpc to use in centers where A is regularly above 440.
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-03-24 15:24
If this problem is so pervasive with 13-series mouthpieces, another solution would be to look at mouthpieces that were designed to play at a higher pitch. There are a number of them available. Vandorens NOT of the 13 series come to mind. Walter Grabner makes his popular K2E among his excelent offderings. Ben Redwine has the Gennusa Euro. Several other makers also make 442 versions of their standard mouthpieces. Why go to the hassle of "corrective surgery" and possible destruction of a mouthpiece on a lathe?
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-24 15:53
Correction: The Genusa Euro IS a chopped down mouthpiece.
My beef is with the concept of an overly large tone chamber and those who profer them without any caveat to the ramifications to the tuning of twelfths.
As Simon Aldrich stated above,
"I am talking about players in recital, audition, jury, clarinet choir, etc where that player can not control the pitch he/she has to match.
The crux of what I am saying is that there is a reason your teacher and I get low-pitched mpcs like series 13s shortened: because they are too low for our orchestral demands. Outside of orchestra the pitch diapason can be even higher so one must have "upward mobility". The series 13 does not provide that so the player is often left to sound flat the whole concert."
And further,
"I have not yet witnessed the flatness of the throat tones in a series 13 mpc rectified by different playing mechanics to the point where they are in tune. As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am only calling it as I see it (or rather hear it). If I ever hear a recital on a non-shortened series 13 in which the player is not constantly flat in the throat tones I will change my opinion.
As an aside, I find the series 13 particularly disposed to being shortened. It is the throat tones of the series 13 that are especially flat. As others have mentioned in this thread, shortening the mouthpiece affects the throat tones disproportionately more. Which is a good thing since the series 13 throat tones are disproportionately flat in the mouthpiece's scale.
Given all the recitals etc I have heard in which every time the player goes into the throat tones he/she is very flat, I think it is fair to say that one risks experiencing the same problem all the time playing on a non-shortened series 13 mpc in a cold-hall, 442+ world."
But it is NOT JUST THE SERIES 13 !!!! It is also a VAST majority of today's custom mouthpieces using the Hans Zinner blanks.
Is this Zinner's fault? NO !!!! Everyone wants to market a mouthpiece that gives you a "darker" sound, so that's the style blank they base their product on.
...............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-24 16:10
I'd like to restate one thing.
I've heard many players in both recital and ensemble play INCREDIBLY sharp on traditional vandorens.
i listened to a recital a year or so ago where the player was so sharp that they were pulled out 3-4 mm at the barrel. However, notes in the upper register and long tube clarion notes were still sharp. The throat tones were 20-30 cents low because the barrel was pulled so much.
30-40 cents sharp and 20-30 cents flat
V.S.
having some throat tones a shade under.
One can see why, especially in the realm of 440, the latter would be more desirable. When clarinetists bite, which many many players do, the sharper mouthpiece create a large tuning discrepancy (up to 50 cents!) from the sharpest to the flattest.
I prefer playing a higher pitched mouthpiece with a relaxed jaw pressure and firm lips. However, it is worth noting that tuning problems are not do not only belong to 440 mpcs, and many times can be exponentially worse.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-24 16:22
So let's train all our students to bite and accept a "few flat notes."
THIS is the disservice to which I refer.
.....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-24 17:59
Paul,
I was merely playing the devil's advocate. Only ripping on the 13 series mouthpieces makes one think that no tuning problems would come up with 442 mouthpieces.
When playing at 440, it's not necessary for one to bite to bring up to pitch most of the range of the clarinet, and the few flat notes aren't that flat.
Forcing a student to play at 440 with a 442 mouthpiece and standard length barrel can be a disservice to many students as well. 440 mouthpieces by companies other than vandoren do tend to play higher, as I've never play a piece as low as a 13 series mouthpiece.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-24 19:04
If one is playing with an embouchure that supports completely around the entire mouthpiece (a good amount of UPPER lip AND cheek muscles reigning in the sides) the sound you produce WILL be lower, such as with a DOUBLE LIP embouchure.
I am getting at PROPER and COMFORTABLE embouchure. And yes, I believe the ONLY way to approach pitch is from ABOVE. If you are pushing UP from below, how do you then go about judging what is TOO much jaw pressure?
Another poster just stated that he was BELOW pitch on a 13 Series and was talked into purchase by "experts."
Starting flat is NOT NOT NOT the way to go.
....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-24 19:31
Tuning at 440 and playing a 13 series mouthpiece is not coming up much, if at all, unless the clarinet is completely ice cold. When my R13 is warmed up with a 66mm barrel, playing a 13 series at 440 doesn't require any serious effort to play in tune. At that point it's just a few notes that are favor a lower voicing. I don't find that in this situation I have to increase jaw pressure or anything to play in tune- just listen and voice.
As Simon has brought up as well as you, if you play in groups that tune higher and tend to play sharp, it gets dangerous very fast, especially with a standard length barrel.
I play a 442 Kaspar with a 67mm barrel and have no problem at 442 or 441. 440 gets a bit dicier, but is manageable.
If I went back to playing an M13lyre, I would play a 65mm barrel. The only real pitch problem I had with the 13 series was that I wasn't always able to use my favorite resonance fingerings for throat Bb to throat G when the instrument wasn't completely warmed up.
Generally, I agree that one should be pulling the pitch down and not trying to bring it up. As much as Simon doesn't like hearing hours of recitals and auditions where people aren't aware that their throat tones are low (influenced by equipment choice), I don't enjoy hearing recitals where people are so sharp because they are unaware of how their embouchure style and their equipment choices impact the instrument.
As I said before, if you play a 442 mouthpiece, play a "smile"embouchure, and pull the barrel to compensate, the scale of the instrument can be MUCH worse for the wear. Especially when using standard length (66-67mm) barrels and tuning to 440-441.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-24 23:38
>I've heard many players in both recital and ensemble play INCREDIBLY sharp >on traditional vandorens.
>i listened to a recital a year or so ago where the player was so sharp that they >were pulled out 3-4 mm at the barrel. However, notes in the upper register >and long tube clarion notes were still sharp. The throat tones were 20-30 >cents low because the barrel was pulled so much.
>30-40 cents sharp and 20-30 cents flat
>V.S.
>having some throat tones a shade under.
I would be disinclined to judge a mouthpiece by how a student's (or bad player's) deficiencies are manifest on that mpc. Was the person who was very sharp using 5+ reeds? Was their barrel a sane length? Were there other factors that caused the sharpness?
Why not judge the traditional Vandoren by how the OSM guys sound on it?
Are they 30-40 cents sharp in the upper clarion and 20-30 cents flat in the throat tones? No they are in tune. To me that is a more reliable indication of the pitch merits of a mpc.
You heard me last week. Was I 30-40 cents sharp in the upper clarion and 20-30 cents flat in the throat tones? No. On the contrary, the 12ths are well-tuned on M30s.
>I was merely playing the devil's advocate.
The last thing we need on the board is another devil's advocate!
>Only ripping on the 13 series mouthpieces makes one think that no tuning >problems would come up with 442 mouthpieces.
It may sound presumptuous but in relation to other mouthpieces, I have not observed the trad M30 (442) to have any overt tuning problems.
My experience suggests that, across the board, the trad M30 is one of the most intrinsically in-tune-with-itself mpcs I have heard. I can't explain why but the respective registers of the clarinet sit where they should with this mpc. The throat tones are voiced "up" and the voicing of the upper clarion is also voiced "up" without being sharp. The most welcome characteristic is that the overall pitch is seated a bit lower than the M15 so one is not always lipping and voicing notes down.
In orchestra and chamber music I have no tuning problems with my trad M30 (aside from the instrumental tendencies of individual notes that have to be favored up or down). I am pulled out a bit for orchestra and a bit more for chamber music, without the throat tones going flat. When I use a Series 13 and certain Zinner-blank models I have pitch problems (nothing against the Zinner blank).
I rip on the Series 13 mpcs because among the legions of players I have heard using Series 13 models, not a *single* student has been able to play it up to pitch in the throat tones. I know that sounds like I am now judging a mouthpiece by how a student's (or bad player's) deficiencies are manifest on that mpc, but surely a few of them were playing with good mechanics.
>30-40 cents sharp and 20-30 cents flat
>V.S.
>having some throat tones a shade under.
You flatter the Series 13 by referring to its flatness as "a shade under". If they were simply a shade under I wouldn't be ranting like the anti-Series 13 zealot I am starting to sound like.
We are not talking "shade under" but rather wholesale "throat tones are at a different diapason than the rest of the instrument" flatness.
Paul Aviles regularly brings up the 12ths. The importance of the tuning relationship of the 12ths cannot be underestimated. Mpcs that have too narrow or too wide 12ths are not professionally usable.
>Forcing a student to play at 440 with a 442 mouthpiece and standard length >barrel can be a disservice to many students as well.
Perhaps. I see a greater disservice in putting a student in the unrealistic situation of playing at 440 to begin with. I can't remember the last time I played at 440. If the strings are sitting low in chamber music I pull out a bit. The trad M30 still plays in tune in that situation. But I have the luxury of being able to push in on a cold A clarinet and be up to pitch, a regular reality in playing and something a Series 13 mpc cannot do on a cold clarinet (or warm clarinet for that matter).
For me the bottom line is this: What Vandoren does to lower the pitch on a Series 13 mpc messes up the pitch. It renders the 12ths too wide.
With the predominance of A441 and A442, by definition a mpc made to play flat is a non-starter.
On the other hand, for me personally, with the trad M30 Vandoren seems to have come as close as anyone so far in making a mpc that is well-voiced, in tune with itself and containing a good balance of highs and lows.
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-25 03:09
Hey Simon,
Most of my comments in my last statement were with regards to how these manifest with students.
The student playing that sharp, and flat, was using a 66 mm barrel and pulled quite a bit.
On the note of the OSM guys. Mr. Crowley has played every mouthpiece under the sun, all the while playing in tune. One of his favorite "go to" mouthpieces over the years has been the M13 lyre. I believe he had one shortened by a mm or so, but knowing him he has at least a dozen of that mouthpiece!
It is true that most students don't play in tune on 13 series. It is also true that most students don't play in tune...
My Kaspar plays higher than the traditional vandoren, so I don't have anything against higher pitched mouthpieces and pitch flexibility.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2010-03-26 11:45
I take it that Orchestre Metropolitan tunes at 442..?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-26 12:11
Dear D Dow,
I know that you're being tongue and cheek, but for those who don't know, string players all think they sound better a little higher and the tendency is for most ensembles to ride on the higher side. Lately, somewhere (was it actually on the audition notice?) I saw an "official statement" that the Chicago Symphony orchestra tunes 442. To me, to see that printed ANYWHERE was almost as big a deal as the US passing Health Care.
So now that we can all accept that we play a little higher, one also has to accept the fact that a few cents GLOBALLY on the horn IS A BIG HAIRY DEAL.
We just all have to be aware of that.
.......................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-26 13:45
"It is true that most students don't play in tune on 13 series. It is also true that most students don't play in tune..."
As a student, who does play in tune, and have been complimented on my playing skill by being elected to my county's all star band and have sat in first chair in my school band for last 3 years, I know the M13 Lire does not play in tune with my clarinet. It is not me that is out of tune. However, with the help of the experts on this board, I also now know that there is so much more for me to learn about playing that I would never try to come off as being able to offer any advice to the players here, not for a long time coming.
I just did not like the various copies of the M30 I recently tried, even though their tuning virtues are written about here. I can't explain scientifically why it did not work for me, but I know it did not feel right. The M13 Lire did feel "right" for me. I was dissapointed at the time that I could not play in tune as this would have been a great solution for me for under $100. My budget certainly is traveling upwards as I guess a shorter barrel is in my future, or I continue trying to find a mpc that work with my standard R13 barrel. I am not yet able to combat the tuning with varous techniques as described in this thread because I am just not that skilled yet or my teachers are not that aware as some of you are.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Sylvain
Date: 2010-03-26 16:57
buit15:
If you really like the M13 Lyre, just get it shortened. It's cheaper than getting a new barrel. Mr Aldrich seems to know a lot about this so I would trust his 1.75mm recommendation.
I play on this mouthpiece (unshortened), and short barrels (63/64 on A, 64/65 on Bb), but I probably need to listen to some recent recordings see if I am flat on the throat tones.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-26 17:34
Dear buit15,
Aside from the tuning issues, the M30 has thicker rails and has a strong tendency (for me) to be less responsive and sound "thuddy."
I would still recommend looking at the Traditional Vandorens such as the 5RV Lyre and the 11 Dot 6.
...............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-26 22:19
"I just did not like the various copies of the M30 I recently tried, even though their tuning virtues are written about here. I can't explain scientifically why it did not work for me, but I know it did not feel right."
I can understand that. The local woodwind store here in Montreal gets many mpcs in at a time. The last batch contained 15 M30s. I tried them all and one was good so I bought it. But the others were not particularly good.
Paul wrote "Aside from the tuning issues, the M30 has thicker rails and has a strong tendency (for me) to be less responsive and sound "thuddy."
It is true that the rails of the M30 are thick. Also the tip is quite open (115). Traditionally a mpc with thick rails and a open tip requires quite a bit of effort to play and is dangerous in orchestra, with all the ultra soft entries and sustained soft playing. But for some reason the M30 (or at least the good ones I have found) is not typical in this regard. I figure it is because of the long facing which makes a reed act and feel softer.
buit15 - I was going to say the same thing Sylvain said about your concern about getting shorter barrels in order to use an M13Lyre, "If you really like the M13 Lyre, just get it shortened. It's cheaper than getting a new barrel."
Ask a competent repairman to put the mouthpiece on a lathe and shorten the mpc by 1.75mm at the two logical spots it needs to be shortened (at the bottom and top of the tenon).
DDow asked "I take it that Orchestre Metropolitan tunes at 442..?"
Yes, as do all the bigger regional orchestras in this area (Trois-Rivieres, Laval, Longueil, etc).
The Montreal Symphony technically plays at 442 but when I play with the MSO winds the pitch sits even higher than at the other 442 orchestras.
Simon
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2010-03-27 00:41
I remember my teacher Harold Wright saying the Boston symphony when he joined was at 444 which he felt was terribly high. It gave him real headaches in the lower chalumeau and in his words was maddening..
...This after his work with the Washington orchestra which tuned at 440 or else die. I believe Dorati was the conductor there with Wright..and he took no bull from anyone...
I think it proves a point that orchestral pitch does move around from place to place. The Mso winds play with a tangy light astringency which I have felt reminds me of tea with lemons.
as to M30s I still think the verdict is yet to be out on this piece. It has a nice sound but questionable tendencies. I have yet to find one that plays the throat e in tune on either of my clarinets..
Out of batches I have tried of M15s..I own two M15s which are super and play nicely at 440...so I settled on that one. Big deal.
....I have also thrown out a few M15s that I have purchased previously due to complete frustation with their inherent tendencies and speech. One which was given to me and another that I bought on order blindly.
I think pitch in Quebec is pretty much 442...is the TSO at 440?
I also remember Karl Leister stating at Domaine Forget that all Wurlitzers are made with the same pitch tendencies..low on the throat Bb and Ab etc. He also knew that this was simply part of the way these clarinets were regulated.
And yes the Berlin Phil in those days every player used the same facing in a clarinet section.
In the EEC youth orchestra we tuned at 444 in the mid 1980s...no problem. This was the days of B45s and small bore facings. I remember the throat notes being alot higher than the rest of the clarinet thoough.
It is also implied if we are high then we are sharp as a section..yikkess!!
and Paul...yes there are conductors out there that hear and feel the difference. Clarinetists all over deal with them everyday and have to play in tune...that is part of the job.
Baroque ensembles play well below 440...some as low as 436...provided we are in tune among ourselves and are having fun!
That being said I have found this post to be quite a good read!
David Dow
Post Edited (2010-03-27 01:10)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
