 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2009-11-16 00:11
This is my second posting in about 10 minutes, but I don't know if anyone on the bboard has found it yet. It's a video of Benny Goodman playing the Copland Clarinet Concerto, accompanied by Aaron Copland himself, conducting the Los Angeles Philharmonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1za5qebqqo
Wow, he's old. It seems miraculous that he can play the altissimo notes at all, at his age.
Well, just wanted everyone to know.
Seok Hee Jang
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-16 00:32
Playing that register was always Goodmans forte, you don't loose that just because you get older. He wasn't a hundred years old when he recorded that you know. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
PS. I'm seventy now and can easily play a high C, that's C7. It's like riding a bike, you never really forget, besides I still play professionally. Stanley Drucker just retired from the NY Phil at age 80 and he plays as well as he ever did, even the high notes, wow.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-11-16 01:10
Decent performance, particularly by BG. The LA Phil. is surprisingly sloppy and square, and the pianist hasn't a clue, but it works pretty well -- certainly much better than the premiere with Reiner conducting the NBC Symphony, which was a disaster. Copland was a famously bad conductor, but he does well here.
Going back to prior arguments about "swing," I thought that BG's tone and phrasing were strongly influenced by his jazz background.
Does anyone know the recording date? Goodman died in 1986, and I've read that he was playing right up to the end.
Ken Shaw
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2009-11-16 01:53
I'm sorry if I offended you. But I was surprised. I didn't know that Goodman only lived until the age of 77. To me, he looks older than that in the Copland video, more like 90. But doesn't it get harder to maintain a firm embouchure as you get older? And if fatigue caused by age wasn't the reason why his altissimo notes were flat, what was?
Again, sorry if I offended you.
Seok Hee
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-16 15:55
Seok Hee I'm not insulted don't worry about it. It is true that as one gets older a persons embouchure could get weaker at some point. That will depend on how you "work out" and just how old you are. In some cases it could occur at an earlier age and in some case very late in life. There have been many jazz trumpet players that kept their embouchure strong well into their eighties. Ever hear of Doc Severnson?
Benny Goodman was an alcoholic by the time he recorded the Copland and probably was not in "great shape" though he still had his range. There could have been several reasons for his high notes being flat and not being conscience enough of it could have been one reason but it could also have been some loss of control that he had when he was younger.
He performed with us, the BSO, back in the 80s sometime, I think the Mozart but it could have been a Weber and he needed to have a grand piano to lean against even though one was not required and he kept his "drink" on the piano and took a sip now and then. We don't think it was water. In his prime he was one of the greatest clarinetists of swing ever but in my opinion his "classical" playing left a bit to be desired, even when he was in his prime. ESP
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-11-16 17:00
Ed Palanker wrote:
> Benny Goodman was an alcoholic by the time he recorded the
> Copland and probably was not in "great shape" though he still
> had his range.
Ed - do you have a source for that?
I had always read that Goodman was probably the most "straight" of any of the jazz musicians of that era.
However many of his band members had notorious drinking problems (ex: Zoot Sims)
...GBK
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Author: FDF
Date: 2009-11-16 17:42
Out of curiosity, I placed a chromatic tuner on my computer and watched it while the video played. B.G. had remarkably good intonation. He was not flat. The high notes, if anything, were a little sharp. The violins were flat from time to time, but, over all, the blending of the clarinet sound with the orchestra was very good.
B.G. looked sober to me, and his embouchure appeared firm. He played the Concerto from memory and with attention to the conductor while listening to the orchestra.
I saw and heard little to criticize and a great deal to admire.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-16 18:50
GBK, All I know is that when he played a concerto with us he was definitely a drinker. There was no way he was completely sober when he played with us that evening. The clarinet section all talked to him afterwards and we could smell his breath. It was obvious to all of the orchestra members, especially the violins he was leaning on the piano near, why he needed to lean on the piano when he played. It was amazing that he was able to play as well as he did but despite his obvious drinking, and the drink on the piano, it wasn't water, he played with reasonable control. Someone that takes an occasional drink cannot do that. By the way, we did not need a grand piano for anything else for that concert. It was required in his agreement. I can't remember the year he played with us but it was near the end of his life. Perhaps he was able to control his drinking by then or recently became a drinker, I don't know, but that night, he was a drinker. Maybe he was having a problem and began drinking to mask the pain in his later years, my father ended up doing that before we realized what was happening, I just don't know. By the way, I always admired him, he was the reason I began playing the clarinet. As far as the pitch goes, I don't have that recording so I can't comment on his pitch. I've always thought he was truly the "King of Swing" and I still listen to his swing recordings. ESP
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-16 20:08
This video's probably older than you think. Although Benny Goodman played his clarinet up to the day he died (he died with one of the Brahms Sonatas on his stand, so the story goes), Aaron Copland had Alzheimer's Disease (the early signs of which appeared in the early 1970s). Copland conducted his last concert in 1983 and by that time his condition had already deteriorated significantly.
More than likely this video is an excerpt from the PBS special "Copland Conducts Copland" from 1976.
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title.jsp?stid=463857&atid=0
In one biography of Copland, there is a photo of him rehearsing the Concerto in 1976 with Goodman and the LA Philharmonic. They look pretty much the same as they do in this video. You can view the picture by clicking the link below:
http://tinyurl.com/yfvptkj
If this was indeed taped in 1976, Goodman would have been 67 years old and Copland 76.
If Copland were alive today, this past Saturday (November 14) would have been Copland's 109th birthday.
Post Edited (2009-11-16 20:10)
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Author: FDF
Date: 2009-11-16 21:48
The instrumentalist in the background of the rehearsal photo also shows up on the video. Too bad, Benny died his hair for the performance; looks better gray. Good research, mrn.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-11-16 22:17
If B.G. was an alcoholic it's the first I ever heard of that. There is a difference between being an alcoholic and drinking per se. As far as leaning on the piano that could have been due to muscular weakness....common when you get to be closing on 80. I have been listening to some early B.G. with Teddy Wilson's orchestra and have a new respect for his jazz playing. Where's the documentation re B.G's being an alcoholic. Opinions don't count. And....if he was so what?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-16 22:25
I didn't say I thought any less of BG for his drinking when he played with us years ago. I assumed he was an alcoholic by that time because who else would play in that condition at a public concert with a major orchestra and need a piano to lean on. I have no less respect for him if he was or not. If he wasn't so that much the better. Let's just assume he was not an alcoholic. Let's just let it be that he liked to take a drink before and while he played a concerto, I can live with that. I liked him and his playing. So I take it back, he was not an alcoholic, I couldn't care less. Sorry I ever mentioned it. ESP
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2009-11-17 16:29
Thanks for the video! I'm performing that with the South Dakota Symphony this week, and it's good to have another recording to inspire me, and to get a few ideas from. First rehearsal is Thursday, and I meet with the conductor tomorrow. I promise to drink only water!
Chris
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2009-11-17 19:11
To second what Ed said about Goodman drinking at performances, I played in orchestras he performed with twice in the early 1980's and both times he was drinking. It was very evident from the smell that the clear liquid in his glass backstage and onstage wasn't water.
I'm not going to hazard a guess as to whether he was impaired or not, since I didn't know the man and his typical demeanor. I'll just confirm that he was drinking and it wasn't water.
I didn't really give it that much thought since I knew many players who took a drink before concerts because of nerves. I suppose now, many take beta blockers, which mask fear and nervousness much better without impairing ones judgment and coordination.
On another note, I played in orchestras where many famous artists appeared as soloists. Most were incredibly nice and personable, kind and gracious. Goodman was not one of them. As a clarinetist I was anxious to meet him. I just wanted to let him know how nice it was to meet him and how much I had enjoyed his playing over the years. He was very cold and dismissive to everyone who approached him. I don't know if that was "Goodman being Goodman", if age and infirmity had lessened his tolerance for making small talk, or if he was just a garden variety ass.
Post Edited (2009-11-17 19:35)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-11-17 20:24
I thought it was a 'fair' performance. The orchestra didn't play particularly well, true; but it's very difficult for an orchestral player to contribute with the sort of conducting that Copland was producing: very definite beat, insistent even in relaxed passages. He had no ability to create atmosphere even in the magical opening. And it's notoriously tricky anyway for the violins. He's not the first composer to serve his own work less well than others.
Goodman was ill-at-ease, and 'got through' in my view. Someone said he played from memory -- but he didn't, as you can clearly see near the beginning of part 2.
And I have a beef about the effect of his performances on us, because there is much more in (say) the cadenza than he has ever attempted to express. The function of the written accents, for example, including the possibility of their subtle modulation, is completely passed over.
The idea that we should start from the score is nowadays given short shrift by students. They just copy either Goodman's recording, or their own fave clarinet player's version. When you point out that they're not playing what's written, they have their excuse ready: "He/she plays it like that on their RECORDING!"
Recordings have a lot to answer for. They short-circuit the necessary process of arriving at an integral vision of a piece.
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-18 00:39
TonkaToy, thank you for you observation of Goodmans drinking. I wan't trying to put him down, just telling how it was. As I said before, I never liked his "classical playing" but I loved his Swing. I mentioned this another time but Eric Simon told me this story when I studied with him many years after Goodman did. Simon told me that Goodman flew into NY from LA several times over several months to study the "style" of the Mozart Concerto and Quintet when he was preparing to record both of those works, at least the Concerto for sure. After giving Simon a copy of the record Simon told me he played the concerto the same way he did at his very first lesson. He said Goodman didn't change a thing after all those lessons. He did say though that his name appeared on the back of the record jacket.
ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-11-18 06:51
I think this rendition is quite a disappointment, and it is very generous to BG to regard this as a "fair" effort. I feel he was concentrating on getting the notes right. The musical message is lost to me, and the playing sounds clumsy and often rudimentary. I, like many, admire BG greatly so it is a pity to see him falling short here. But, I would like people's views on the tone presented in this recording. Is it likely it sounded as scratchy and garbled as it seems or is that likely to be a fault int he recording technology? I hope the latter.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-11-18 11:36
"to me, he looks older than that in the Copland video, more like 90"
He was simply having a Bad Hair Day....
Bob Draznik
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-11-18 16:30
TonkaToy, regarding Goodman’s attitude:
Sometime in the 1960’s or 1970’s, my father was on a flight from NY to Keflavik, Iceland, and was seated beside Goodman on the way.
I remember that my dad told me that Goodman was cold and pretty snob. I’d have to ask him about it again (many years since he told me), but it seems you aren’t the only one who thought this about Goodman.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-11-18 17:15
I heard Goodman live towards the end of his career at an outdoor jazz festival in England. Other acts were Lionel Hampton and Brubeck, so he was not the only big name there. It was obvious that his attitude towards his essentially young band (he was the only old guy in it) was very generous. Indeed, they did more playing than Goodman. But he refused to let the sound engineers turn up the amplification high enough for more than a third of the audience to hear (fortunately I was far enough forward). He was also reported later as having complained at rehearsal that he did not want to play in the middle of a field (perhaps he was unaware it was open air) and when cheared to produce an encore, he played two short high notes before sauntering off.
Needless to say Hampton, Brubeck, and all the others played at the right amplification volume for the audience, and the sound quality was fine.....
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-11-18 21:53
Just like to state what should be the obvious here.......
We have the Copland Concerto and Stravinsky Ebony Concerto and others due to commissions from Benny Goodman.
So before this becomes another "Artie Shaw was better because...." or "Benny was a bigger ******* than Buddy Rich......" lets not forget that he loved the clarinet and quite frankly is responsible for MANY of us being clarinet players.
Let's play nice guys.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-19 03:27
Paul wrote:
<<We have the Copland Concerto and Stravinsky Ebony Concerto and others due to commissions from Benny Goodman.>>
The Ebony Concerto was actually commissioned by another big band era clarinetist, Woody Herman. (although Benny Goodman recorded it)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-11-19 11:17
In about 1965, I remember hearing a recording of Copland's Concerto with Goodman playing it, and it made quite an impression on me. I had only been playing for about a year at the time. I also remember hearing him in person once at an outdoor jazz concert in about 1973.
Yes, Goodman was responsible for some of the great 20th century classics for the clarinet including the Bartok Contrasts and the Hindemith Concerto. Many years ago, I picked up a copy of Milhaud's clarinet concerto, and I think this was also written for Goodman. I played through it a few times, but unlike some of Milhaud's other clarinet pieces, this one didn't seem to be worth working on. It just didn't seem to be a work with any substance at all. Has anyone worked on it, performed it, or heard it performed?
I get the impression that it's completely ignored today.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-19 17:10
I taught the Milhaud to a student years ago, lot's of notes, not much music. It was good for technique work, which is why we worked on it. He just retired from the Navy Band in Washington DC, so it worked. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-11-19 17:15
It is largely ignored. Jack Brymer compares it to the Francaix in terms of difficulty. It requires a great deal of stamina. Maurice Gabai had an LP. More recently, Ken Peplowski and Eduard Brunner have both recorded it. (Both recordings are probably deleted by now though Amazon shows the Peplowski available for under $10 and a couple of used copies of the Brunner for around $20.)
As I recall the story, (either from a prior post here or on the Klarinet list or possibly on recording liner notes), Goodman enjoyed playing a clarinet transcription of Milhaud's "Scaramouche" and commissioned the concerto expecting something similar. He was disappointed at the outcome and never performed it.
Best regards,
jnk
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