 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-11-01 19:57
I have noticed that there are a number of posts on this site that refer to the brighter tone of the Selmer 10G compared with R13s etc.
Having taken receipt of a 1972 10G myself (x series), I found that the sound was actually a little raw, giving the impression of a brighter, less cultured sound. This was slightly disappointing as the intonation was excellent, better than the Buffet R13 I own of the same vintage, but missing the intrinsic sweetness and naturalness of the R13.
And now I have got to the bottom of why...
10Gs are supplied with a wooden barrel with a bore lined in ebonite, ostensibly to make it more stable in use.
Selmer offer an 'upgrade' 10G barrel (circa GBP 60/ USD 90) that is NOT lined in ebonite.
As soon as I tried this all-wood barrel, the sound sweetened and the music acquired the requisite naturalness that had been missing.
This change of barrel has completely elevated the 10G to the very best clarinet to play I have ever tried, and it shall now take its place as my main instrument.
Nick
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-11-01 22:11
Selmer 10G is a copy of Gigliotti's Buffet R13 clarinet which was tweaked by H. Moennig. So, I would expect it to sound a bit different.
If it makes you feel better you can describe brighter tone as being clear and projecting with rich harmonics in the entire sound spectrum.........
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-11-03 00:19
Nick ... good to hear you've had a positive experience with Selmer clarinets. I have, in the past owned one: a series 9* ... it was wonderful and I regret the very day I sold it ...
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-11-03 12:38
Tony personally approved the first few hundred of these as they came off the line from Selmer. "X" was the first model run.
I wonder if the lined barrel was to reduce the potential for cracking?
Amazing scale on those early 10Gs!
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Author: JHS
Date: 2004-12-06 20:26
Nick,
May I ask where you found your upgraded barrel? Thanks.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-01-22 18:54
Another tick for the barrel that comes with the 10G (Moennig-like lined in ebonite).
Take a fine sandpaper like 2000 grade, wrap it aroudna thick pencil or pen, and evenly spin the barrel to remove the finest fraction of the ebonite. For some weird reason,it sweetens it up. I've since tried 2 other 10Gs and the sound of the barrels does vary. I've tried one where you don't need to do as suggested because the sound is sweet already, without edge.
BTW - Rcently tried a 10S D series - I don't agree with those who say they're no good - this one's a delight. Have tried others that are not great, so like all clarinets, I guess they vary.
Nick
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-22 21:21
nick,
Do you or anyone else reading this know how to check to see if your barrel has that ebonite lining? Is it a noticeable difference or is there a way to tell?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Covalaga
Date: 2005-01-22 22:26
Nick,
Long may you continue your interest with Selmer 10G and the like, I have never known such dedication and interest. Have you any more thoughts on the Series 9 and Series 9* and why the difference.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-01-23 02:50
Well now, I read somewhere that the Selmer 10G was based on Gigliotti's 21 thousand series Buffet. Anybody else ever heard of that?
My 21xxx Buffet is pretty bright
Bill.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2005-01-23 04:31
The feeling of tone darkness may be quite different in different coutries.
Not many Buffet users use the buffet mouthpieces which come with their clarinets but many Selmer users do. In case of 10G, when it was introrduced into market,this may caused misunderstanding of 10G itself. With HS or C series mouthpieces it is very stuffy although present C85 or CP series are suitable for them. The bore size of 10G is a little larger than other Selmer clarinets then. I did not know this fact then and wondered why Selmer's mouthpieces do not match my 10G but Vandoren 2RV does.
I understand Selmer could not say 10G had been designed based on a Buffet R-13 tweaked by Hans Moennig to promote their sales.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-01-23 23:17
Alexi
If you look at the 10G barrel lined in ebonite, you will not discern any wood grain at all. When the barrel is damp, the dampness will be visible against a surface that looks more like a blackboard than a wood bore.
With the unlined version of the 10G barrel, you will clearly see the same finely 'sunken splintered' grain of grenadilla.
Nick
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-01-23 23:30
Covalaga,
The difference between the Selmer 9 and 9* is bore size - one is large bored, the other is closer to a classic French narrow bore. But the difference we're talking about here is very small, around 1/1.25mm or less!
There are a few postings on this elsewhere if you search this bulletin board. One posting suggests the 9* was a precurser to the 10G - the copy of Gigliotti's customised R13 which he believed improved on the R13s intonation of the time. Though which version of R13 I have no idea. the 10G came out in 1973, so one might surmise that Gigliotti's modified R13 may have been based on a model with a serial number rather less than 100,000. Clark Fobes believes that the R13's intonation improved in the '70s (above serial number c90,000, up to around 200,000). Was this in any way connected with the launch of the 10G??? Rumour has it Gigliotti went to Buffet first with his ideas but was turned down, so crossed Paris to propose to Selmer.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have this piece of information at their fingertips?
Nick
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-01-23 23:53
nickma wrote:
> the 10G - the copy of Gigliotti's customised R13 which he
> believed improved on the R13s intonation of the time.
> Out of curiosity, does anyone have this piece of information at
> their fingertips?
In the December 1999 issue of The Clarinet, Gigliotti wrote:
The first time I went to the Buffet factory in France was in 1953 and I remember trying 55 Bb clarinets. After selecting the two best ones I then spent countless hours with Hans Moennig tuning and voicing them until I could finally try them in the orchestra. My reason for becoming involved with the Selmer Company was to make it possible for a student or professional to buy an instrument that didn't need all that work and it has resulted in the series 10G which was based on my Moennigized Buffet which I played for 27 years.
...GBK
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Author: JHS
Date: 2005-01-24 14:33
Nickma,
Please tell us where you found your replacement barrel, the one without the ebonite lining. Thanks.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-01-24 18:38
Just at a regular woodwind shop - Howarths in London, UK: I think they are generally available.
Nick
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-01-24 18:44
Very interesting indeed! So the Moennigized Bufet that the Selmer 10g would have been based on could well have been an early polycylindrical model, around the 50K-60K serial numbers. This was a period, Clark Fobes tells us, during which the R13's 12ths were wider than later ones: this intonation issue was improved from serial number circa 85K onwards. In other words, beyond reproducing the customised work that Moennig did on his Buffet, the 10G is still a very different instrument to a later Buffet R13. Nice to know we have lots of choice!!
Nick
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-03-19 22:01
Selmer 9*:
Fascinated to learn more about the tonal qualities of the 9*, which I understand is a fractionally narrower bore than a standard 9 (.577 plays .588), and with a bit more undercutting. I finally bought one, which should arrive within next 2 weeks. I shall update you all when I do. I don't expect it to replace my 10G (nothing could do that), but I do think it'll sell well and I hope it sounds lovely.
I have seen on this Board one or two people have had great experiences with a 9*, and one has not been so impressed. Would anyone who has had one like to tell me more about how they feel about it?
Thanks
Nick
Nick
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-03-21 17:46
A 1953 Buffet would not be a 50,000-60,000 serial number instrument. It would be somewhere in the low to mid 40,000's. It might have been at a pre-R13 evolutionary semi-polycylindrical stage (Caree was working on the R13 concept at the time) or it might not. Moennig complained about an experiment in bore design by Buffet at about this point that he had to advise them to correct. We don't have good solid observational information on the all the changes in bore tried during the time, at least as this bulletin board is concerned. I do know that a 37,000 Buffet that has always been in my possession has no observable polycylindrical changes in the bore, though it does have a reversed cone barrel!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-21 18:14
Toward the end of Gigliotti's life (last 10-12 years maybe) has was making and selling barrels for the 10G which were a lot better than what came with them.
I didn't try one, but a friend who plays the thing likes it a lot.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-03-22 03:58
My professor has two gigliotti barrels that he uses with his matched set of R13 Prestiges. But then again, he's a bit of a gigliotti nut (being a former student and all). Uses Mr. G's mouthpiece (the newer version), ligature, barrels, swab, and sometimes reeds too.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Musicalmrso
Date: 2009-10-12 19:59
I have a Y series for over 20 years, I cannot play a Buffet because I have small hands. I love my instrument (wooden barrel) and use a Vandoren M13 mouthpiece and Mitchell Lurie 5 reed to compensate for the 'brightness'. My clarinet set-up provides me with a 98% note accuracy +/- 5 cents.
Melissa Overhiser
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-10-13 02:11
Or you can describe it as Gigliotti did - darker than other French instruments and more focuses than German ones. In my experience most people who describe a tone as dark usually mean good and when they use bright they usually mean they don't like it. Gigliotti's dark and Morales's dark are two different creatures.
I think the differences between Buffet and Selmer tonal tendencies increased as the 10G matured.
I would take some very careful measurements of the barrel tapers before I'd ascribe the differences to the hard rubber sleeve in the barrel.
Karl
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