 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-05 01:13
There's an interesting article titled "Some Strings Attached" by Will Cicola in the newest issue of The Clarinet. It is a very informative article but I have to take exception with his final comment. "I have yet to find a clarinetist who has judged the sound and response of the string ligature to be anything but unparalleled" Well he just did and I know many professional clarinetists that think that metal, leather or other materials sound and respond better than string. If that were not the case just about every professional would be using a string ligature.
I don't have a problem with string ligatures, they're just not for me. I don't feel like I get enough focus in my sound with one, I don't find that they dampen out the highs in my sound like my present one does, it doesn't give my low register or throat tones enough of a solid compact sound and I don't feel the response is as good as what I'm presently using. In short, like so many others, I prefer something other than a string ligature.
My major teacher, Leon Russianoff, told me to look for a ligature that gives me the same result as my thumb when I hold the reed on the mouthpiece when I try out a reed. A string ligature doesn't make it for me, and obviously not for many others as well.
Sure I know several players that play string ligatures and sound really good, but I know many more that use other types of ligatures that also sound very good. So even though I think it's a very good article I take exception to his last comment. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
PS. By the way I use a Rovner ligature on both clarinet and bass clarinet.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-05 05:01
Since I don't intend to read THE CLARINET, could someone clarify if this is about actually winding string onto the mouthpiece?
If it is, there is much to be said for this method. But many clarinetists outside of Germany do not do this because it requires a learning curve, a cake of 100% beeswax, and the constant patience to wind and unwind with EVERY use.
I would say that response is different, not necessarily better. One thing that is for sure, is that it makes reeds feel almost a half strength weaker.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-10-05 08:01
"a cake of 100% beeswax"
--
Paul,
I used to use a German mouthpiece with a string for a couple of years, but I never heard about the beeswax. What is it for?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-05 14:42
Paul, the article was about the string that you wind on your mouthpiece but he mentioned a few of the other string ligatures as well. As I said in my post, there are players that use string that sound very good but there are many other players that prefer another types of ligatures. One type does not work best for everyone, something that some people never seem to understand about anything clarinet wise. I try to get that point made constantly. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-10-05 16:21
Paul Aviles wrote:
"Since I don't intend to read THE CLARINET"
May one ask why in the world not? It would certainly seem to be must reading for any clarinetist.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-10-05 16:57
I don't read the Clarinet, though I may have to subscribe if I'm going to apply for a performance space at the Clarinetfest in 2011 in LA.
Back on the String ligature, I have been playing on my Vandoren Klassik for over a year and a half and have no problems, I really like the darker sound it gives me and now that I've changed reeds which are made and hand finished in Vienna (French cut) I have found the sound to be what I like.
I have always used string on my period clarinets and have had no problems there. For the Germans and Viennese to continue to use string after all these means there must be something in it.
I like this quote, "I have yet to find a clarinetist who has judged the sound and response of the string ligature to be anything but unparalleled" I have to agree with him on this. I have at least 8 other ligs from Rovner, Gold Charles Bay to name a few, I always keep coming back to the Klassik.
It works for me.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-05 17:11
Even though the German mouthpieces have grooves for the string (so that the wrap doesn't just slip off the narrower end of the mouthpiece) and many even have a bumper at the top Line of Ligature, you MUST run the cord you use through a block of beeswax (perhaps three or four quick passes) to make the string tacky.
I used "Blattschnur" for many years on standard American mouthpieces with no problems. One just needs to keep the cord a bit more tacky than a standard German would.
I mainly use silk, rat-tailed braided cord but acrylic can work to......with more BEESWAX !!!!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-10-05 17:18
I worked with a German player in the summer who used string on her German system Wurlitzers. I don't recall her ever using beeswax for the string, she just tied it round, in fact she had a spare cord and I used it, it wasn't tacky in the slightest.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: donald
Date: 2009-10-05 18:39
I often use string on my E flat clarinet mouthpiece. This is a french style mouthpiece with no grooves- and having also used string on a grooved German mouthpiece, i have actually discovered an advantage to not having the grooves...
- If the mouthpiece is non grooved, then you can loosen the string slightly (by sliding it up the mouthpiece) to make adjustments, then tighten it by pulling it down again.
- additionally, one you have tied the string off you can slide/pull the string down the mouthpiece a little further to tighten the string, tending to tighten it more at the top end than the bottom (this effect can be enhanced by wrapping tightly at the top but relaxing at the bottom). This gives the same effect as tightening the top screw more on a 2 screw lig, really sealing the reed at the window.
I do find that changing reeds in a performance is a bit more annoying than it needs to be, and remember a LONG silent minute on stage at the OU Symposium 2005 as i changed reeds.
Much as I like string, the comment in the Clarinet has no statistical basis and would not appear to be true- but is also worded in a way (as far as I read here) that means he could be referring to when HE demonstrates the string lig and then asks the listener to respond... ?
dn
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-10-05 19:40
I don't know any German clarinet players who use beeswax on their string ligatures...
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Author: donald
Date: 2009-10-05 19:49
I always thought the beeswax was to stop the ends of the string from fraying... but I have no recollection of where I learned this?
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-10-05 20:42
I'm with Steve and Peter regarding the Vandoren Klassik. I've tried a good number of ligatures and, without question, I prefer Klassik on Bb clarinet.
On bass clarinet and saxophones I prefer Optimum (plate #1).
Roger
http://www.amc.net/RogerMAldridge
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Author: hrvanbeek
Date: 2009-10-05 21:04
I use a 2mm unwaxed cotton string on a mouthpiece without grooves and don't have any problems with the string loosening or slipping off. I can see the need for beeswax if one uses a more slippery type of string material though. The German Air Force band member who taught me how to tie it never once mentioned beeswax. I guess it's personal preference or how one is taught to tie it...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-05 21:28
Peter said he agreed with the quote. So I have to ask you Peter. Do you think that every professional player in the world thinks that a string ligature is better than anything else? If so, why is it that the vast majority of players use something else? Remember, I'm not saying the string is not very good, only that everyone doesn't agree that it is the "best". ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-10-05 21:41
Ed,
I agree with the quote because of my own personal and professional experiences playing with string, as it were. I don't think that every player in the whole World thinks that string is the best thing since sliced bread. To be honest I'm not bothered by what ligature they use. I judge a player solely on their on what comes out of the instrument.
Why do the vast majority of players use something else? I don't no, perhaps because players in the US want a more brighter sound and 'ping' that a metal ligature might help produce, whereas some players in Europe prefer ligatures that let the reed vibrate such as Rovner and BG and string. You have to realise that the metal ligature with screws was really only invented for convenience of changing a reed. Players had been using string successfully for many years before it ever was even thought of.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: William
Date: 2009-10-05 22:12
"You have to realise that the metal ligature with screws was really only invented for convenience of changing a reed."
Sorry to disagree, PC, but I always thought the main reason for the inverted lig was to prevent sqeezing where the two metal sections met in the middle, thereby providing more uniform pressure to the back of the reed.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-10-05 22:28
William,
I was referring to when Muller invented it in the traditional form, with the squeezing back in the 19C.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2009-10-05 22:39
I've used a string ligature for over 20 years. I don't know why. I think it's a good conversation starter.
I like the way it feels but I certainly don't claim that it sounds better than anything else.
-Steve Hartman
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-06 00:37
Peter, your answer is interesting but I must tell you that the Rovner ligature, and copy cats, are probably some of the most popular ligatures in the US today, far more than the string type. I actually know very few clarinet players today that use metal ligatures, though I do know some and I'm sure there are many others. Two of us in the BSO use the Rovners, two are using a string type ligature, but only recently. I for one do not like a bright sound with "ping" as you put it and I don't think the others in the BSO like that either. My favorite player, a former student of mine, Ricardo Morales, certainly does not like it but I'm sure there are some in the US that do. I much prefer the feel, sound and response of a Rovner than I do of string, but I'm not putting down string. I just don't agree with the writers statement "I have yet to find a clarinetist who has judged the sound and response of the string ligature to be anything but unparalleled" That simply is not true, period. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-10-06 01:56
Most people in the U.S. I know use Rovners. I do, too. I have a Mark III for my clarinets and a Dark for my alto sax.
The few times I've tried using a shoestring to tie my reed on I've been pleased with the sound. The only thing I don't care for with the string is that I've not really perfected the art of tying it on so that when I move the mouthpiece from instrument to instrument, I don't dislodge the reed. So I've stuck with the Rovner. I still keep a shoestring in my case, though, just in case I might want to use it.
It was my understanding that the whole point of the Rovner ligature (originally) was to create a ligature having the tonal/responsive benefits of string without the hassles.
The Klassik ligature looks like an interesting alternative, but I just can't bring myself to spend that much for a ligature, and I'm happy enough with the equipment I have that I haven't felt the need to switch.
Post Edited (2009-10-06 14:01)
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Author: wcicola
Date: 2009-10-06 06:12
Hello to all!
I'm excited that my article has spurred such a discussion! I want to thank everyone for the feedback—I must agree with Ed Palanker that my final statement came off too broadly. I definitely did not mean to assert that every player everywhere in every situation will find the string to be superior to all other solutions, but I can see now how that is perhaps the most intuitive reading of that sentence. My intended meaning was more along the lines of Donald's speculation—everyone who has heard me play both the string ligature and a metal or leather ligature has agreed that the string produces better results (in my own playing). The vast majority of those who then try it for themselves have also found something to like, although this is a sample heavily populated by undergraduate and graduate clarinet students.
That being said, many of them prefer to stick with something more convenient, and a few have even sounded objectively worse with the string. This last group has almost universally had the same experience as Ed—unfocused tone, poor response, and a tinny sound in the upper register. If nothing else, this is a fascinating testament to the diversity in equipment, both organic and manufactured, and further evidence that there is no single universally appropriate setup.
My apologies again for the ambiguity in the final sentence of the article; in the future, I will certainly be more careful to consider all possible readings of my words!
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2009-10-06 13:29
I'm already so obsessive compulsive about my clarinet:
Reed breaking in
Reed balancing
Reed sanding
Reed strength
Reed brands
Reed position on mouthpiece
Mouthpiece facings
Mouthpiece openings
Ligature choice
Ligature tightness
Ligature height
Barrel choice
Barrels: inverse tapers
Clarinet brands
Clarinets large bore or small bore
Clarinets: water in tone holes
Clarinet barrel rotation (for best sound)
Clarinet bell rotation (for best sound)
If I were to use string ligatures, I would spend more time fussing with my equipment than I would playing.
Bartmann
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-10-06 13:38
"If I were to use string ligatures, I would spend more time fussing with my equipment than I would playing."
Maybe one could obsess over the exact type of braid?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-06 13:43
While I use the Vandoren Klassic regularly, I actually had a concert gig where I misplaced my ligature, so I resorted to the black lace from my dress shoe, wrapped around the mp several times, then knotted. Worked just fine.
Jeff
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-10-06 13:43
I'm often reminded of the many variables involved in producing a quality sound on an instrument.
Whenever discussions like this take place among musicians the discussion offen ends in "whatever works for you". It's true! There is no "best" mouthpiece, reed, ligature, or instrument. Clearly, the biggest factor is the musician himself or herself. After that, in my opinion, is how the individual pieces of our equipment are matched to create a whole that fits our tonal conception and how we work with the instrument.
For example, I cannot explain why Rovner ligatures work so well for Ed (and others who use them) whereas it has been my experience that Rovner -- every model I've tried -- dampens my sound. Clearly, Ed is a superb musician and knows his stuff. I also find it curious how the Optimum ligature works so beautifully for me on bass clarinet & saxophones however my experience with it on Bb clarinet is not positive. Conversely, while I get excellent results with Klassik on Bb clarinet I found that it's not as resonant on saxophone.
I've come to the conclusion that personal trial & error is a good way to go in order to experiment with a selection of equipment and after a deduction process find those pieces that are a good match for one another and for us as individual players. Then, it doesn't matter what we use versus others.
Roger
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2009-10-06 14:15
Regarding 'fussing' with equipment: during performances, at least, it's much less convenient to fuss with one's reed if one uses a string. It's important to make sure your mouthpiece cork is well-greased and that the string is not too loose so that you don't have a catastophe while changing clarinets.
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-10-06 15:18
I have used the BG super revelation which I liked but recently tried the Vandoren Klassik which I now prefer. It just depends on your setup and what works best for you.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-10-06 15:20
Mr. Palanker took exception originally to the statement at the end of the article in which the author said that he had yet to find a clarinetist who has judged the sound and response of the string ligature to be anything but unparalleled.
What exactly is wrong with saying that? Where is the implication that string should replace all other ligatures and that anyone who fails to recognize the benefits of string is a moron or an inferior player. Mr. Palanker read something arrogant and dogmatic into the author's very personal statement that is simply not there.
Upon reading the statement that certain players -- whom the author knows -- prefer string ligatures, Mr. Palanker felt the need to remind us that he and many others prefer cloth or metal ligatures. Fair enough. But that in no way negates the author's statement that he has yet find anyone who, presumably after trying string, "judges the sound and response to be anything but unparalleled."
With all due respect to Mr. Palanker, the author made a fair and legitimate comment that no one need take exception to.
Paul Globus
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-10-06 15:57
When in high school I used to use a cord type shoe string for a ligature or sometimes a rubber band, ( I had a habit of twisting the screws right out of their mounting.) Differences between ligatlures exist mainly in the mind, not the ear.
I still want to know why a member of this BB would say he not only does't read THE CLARINET. he doesn't ever intend to. Am I missing something here.
Personally I read every word of every issue, including the ads!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-10-06 16:24
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> I read it from cover to cover the second I open it.
Dave,
I'm a really fast reader but you got me beat ...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-06 19:55
Paul, I think the author of the original article answered my post very well, please read it yourself, it's several above this. His quote " That being said, many of them prefer to stick with something more convenient, and a few have even sounded objectively worse with the string. This last group has almost universally had the same experience as Ed—unfocused tone, poor response, and a tinny sound in the upper register." As I said before, it is a very good article. You're reading far too much into my comment. He implied that all clarinets agree with him, I was simply pointing out that all clarinetists do not and he has agreed with me, period. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-10-07 03:07)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-10-06 21:00
When I was using string regularly, I found a big difference in the results related to material. I found that the "harder" the material was (ie. the less elastic give), the more immediate and consistent the response became.
I once tried a suede leather ribbon that seemed to have very little pitch or tonal center. My final favorite was a silk cord that had almost no elasticity at all.
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Author: nenad
Date: 2009-10-06 22:18
I would like to share my experience...4 years of quest for the "certain" sound. I tried bunch of ligatures, barrels, bells, MP, reeds....
I have around 30 ligatures. Some of the more expensive ones are Paraschos, SAXXAS, Ishimori.
In my experience the choice of the ligature depended on the type of mouthpiece and reed I used with it (and of course me and the sound I wanted to achieve). When I played B45Lyre with V12 I prefered Vandoren leather. Now when I play Ted Lane zinner mp with Gonzalez RC reeds, Vandoren Klassik is by far the best lig of all the ligs I have. It's like I put amplifier on clarinet - big, resonant, warm sound...I also tried other string ligatures, german ones but Vandoren is just warmer sounding, maybe it's because of the material or the way you can tighten it with those two knots (I use a bit of force to tighten both knots to max). I play on Buffet RC Prestige with Fobes barrel and also GAO grenadilla bell. Unlike other bells I tried so far this one IS better then stock bell. It gives me much more powerfull and warmer sound (as you can see I like power ). Soon I will receive barrels from dr Allan Segal so I'll see how that works...good thing is that they are custom made unlike the barrels I tried so far. My quest is not over yet but I am near...my calculations say it will end in Texas clarinet fest next year :D
Roger, regarding saxophone ligs I just recently had my pupils try some ligs. We were comparing few ligs among which were Vandoren leather and Optimum and Olegature. Olegature was by far the best...give it a try.
Nenad Jurcic
Post Edited (2009-10-08 07:23)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-10-07 14:14
Nenad,
Your experience in matching particular mouthpieces & reeds to ligatures is similar to mine. Since much of my playing involves doubling, I've been using Legere reeds exclusively for the past 4 years. I spent a good amount of effort to find the particular mouthpiece facings and ligatures that give me optimal results with Legere. For whatever reason, Optimum (with plate #1) is simply amazing with Legere on saxophones and bass clarinet. I found that some ligs that are exceptionally good with cane reeds do not work as well with Legere.
Roger
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-15 23:19
Attachment: IMG_3758.jpg (1127k)
WARNING: Apology coming !!!
I was able to confer with an honest to god German in Berlin and was told that Germans in fact DO NOT use any coatings at all on their reed string.
My beeswax routine was handed down to me through a friend that had a ten minute conversation in the 70s with a member of the Netherland's Wind Ensemble in which the sting ligature winding was explained along with all the contact information for Herbert Wurlitzer.
I imagine that perhaps those of us who do not have the thick bumper at the top line-of-ligature CAN benefit from beeswax as I learned several times over the years when going to remove my mouthpiece only to find a hand full of twine and a soggy reed (sans mouthpiece !!).
So to you purists out there who DO NOT have grooves in the mouthpiece or a raised ring around the top line-of-ligature, go ahead and tie au natural. But be prepared to switch clarinets by grabbing your barrel.
AND
Enclosed is a picture of one of the BETTER blattschnurs used by my German friend which he describes as Kimono Silk.
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2009-10-15 23:33
You don't need a bumper at the top of the ligature line. Just take a triangular file and deepen the groove there on the back of the mouthpiece, just deep enough to keep the string from slipping.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-10-16 00:48
As it's become common for many German players to use screw ligatures, many mouthpieces do not have the bumper anymore. The body still has the same grooves but the top groove is now very deep. This prevents slipping but still does not block screw ligs.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-16 21:35
jpeg of 1.10 mega bytes. Maybe you don't support the format or don't have the space.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2009-10-17 16:07
A comment and a question:
The BG Revelation was mentioned here. I also was very pleased with imine until I looked down one day and realized that only one of the two rails was resting on my reed, no matter how much I tightened the screws. In examining the ligature off the mouthpiece, I discovered that the shape of the leatherish material had changed. Bummer. Upon closer inspection, I saw that the metal rails were not exactly centered on the ligature material. At present, I am borrowing a tweaked Bonade inverted lig. from a university clarinet professor.
Question: Where can I see good information (in pictures with explanations) about how to use string/twine as a ligature? I'm a visual learner and a video would be the best.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-19 12:00
Dear Heather,
GREAT VIDEO !!!!
That could have saved me several years of "on the job training" back in the day.
I would like to add a few points. It was clear to the initiated that the string had knots on either end but this was not pointed out. The knots allow you to pull either end to tighten...... bringing me to the next point.
After about two or three of the initial winds, you can pull on the vertical to snug up the top of the wind. And.... just before you loop the last wind at the bottom you can (should) give a tug to that end to snug up the bottom.
Of course this does not negate the VERY good advice in the video to keep the string taught as you wind it on in the first place.
WONDERFUL TUTORIAL !!!!
......................Paul Aviles
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