 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: selmerplayer
Date: 2009-05-21 01:15
I heard that WWBW sells only B stock or less. Surely this can't be true. Has anyone else heard this?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-05-21 11:34
I got a perfectly good instrument from wwbw now so long ago. No problems whatsoever, and the clarinet played beautifully.
Jeff
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-21 11:40
I was at WWBW a few weeks ago and the first to play a Yamaha student model bass clarinet. I watched the factory sealed box being opened. As seems to be typical from Yamaha, it played pretty well right out of the box.
However, this was the only one of this model available to try (new or B stock) in the store. I'm not sure I am sold on the use of rubber rings instead of corks on the tenons.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-05-21 12:23
I was just at the WWBW recently (about a month ago) to try Yamahas, Selmers, and LeBlancs.
Several of the instruments I tried were new - I may have been the first to try them.
I was disappointed by their inventory however. The biggest competitive advantage that WWBW used to have (in addition to cheap prices due to volume and high inventory turn over) was that they would stock the biggest selection of instruments to try from. No longer true.
I think with their ownership by Guitar World, they have gone to a JIT model and only keep what they think they will move quickly. The guy behind the counter seemed to imply that they have more stock at a warehouse in Kansas City but what good does that do me when I can't try it at headquarters in Indiana?
I think the days of getting to try many clarinets is past unless you go to Elkhart or Jacksonville. Too bad.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-21 13:09
Roger,
I can't remember exactly but whatever it was, I was not impressed.
HRL
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Author: Ed Svoboda
Date: 2009-05-21 14:37
I have also tested horns that were still factory sealed and that had no major issues out of the box. Most horns could use a little tweak here and there to play at their best. I expect that after something gets shipped from France, Germany, or Japan.
I have seen no evidence that the instruments that WWBW are selling are any different from what Sam Ash or any other major retailer is purchasing.
www.woodwindforum.com/forums
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2009-05-21 15:57
I deal with WWBW almost exclusively for my musical purchases.
If you'll look closely on their website, in the clearance or outlet categories, they will tell you if the stock is "B."
I've always been very pleased with my purchases from them. Clearly, local music stores aren't. A popular music store (THE music store for band and orchestral equipment) is closing in our town. Reason given = people are ordering online and not doing business locally. (I wanted to tell them that had their store prices been more competitive, the outcome might have been different!)
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Author: selmerplayer
Date: 2009-05-21 16:45
Claire Annette wrote:
> I deal with WWBW almost exclusively for my musical purchases.
>
> If you'll look closely on their website, in the clearance or
> outlet categories, they will tell you if the stock is "B."
>
> I've always been very pleased with my purchases from them.
> Clearly, local music stores aren't. A popular music store (THE
> music store for band and orchestral equipment) is closing in
> our town. Reason given = people are ordering online and not
> doing business locally. (I wanted to tell them that had their
> store prices been more competitive, the outcome might have been
> different!)
That's true. The music store in my town sales their stuff at MSRP which is rediculous. A person would have to be out of their mind to pay MSRP when they could get the same instrument at about half that at WWBW.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2009-05-22 00:46
This topic usually gets me agitated. Retail music stores are a lot like many other retail stores, they will do or say anything to lure you into their store, lie, deceive, use high pressure, whatever it takes to sell something. Most of these stores will end up bankrupt in one to ten years because they have such a pathetic business model, many of them are/were run by musicians.
A solid and long term model is actually not that difficult to visualize and almost any small store (3 to 20 employees) can easily beat the big boxes every day of the week. I still consider WWBW a big box even though they have become smaller with the recent change of ownership. Using unheard of techniques like competitive pricing, a decent stock, selling quality instruments and great customer service (repairs on site, friendly and knowledgeable staff…) will almost always give the hometown store a huge plus in every way. I feel that the purchase of a musical instrument is a very personal one and the customer (if they are like me) will want to play several instruments before they buy, there are too many variables (in products and in people) to trust only a recommendation from a friend.
This next part is a bit rude but way too often very true. Musicians, quite often do not make very good business people. Understanding what you need to make as profit on a sale, rental or service is a little more complex than just charging the list price; you need to know your competition and your customers. Most of the musicians that purchase anything from me have no idea what kind of a profit I make, they usually guess very high. The expense side of the business is typically foreign to most people, when I sell a sax for $2600 the first thing they ask me is “Where’s the party?” What party? “The party you’re going to throw because you just made $2600!!”
I didn’t make $2600, I just made (after all expenses removed) about $58, I can’t make much more than that because of the stiff competition in my area.
I’m very sorry that there are so many states that do not have decent retail music stores to shop in so I do understand why the big boxes are so popular. I also understand that when you go into your local store and mention that you might buy something there if the prices were even close to the big boys, you get cold stares and little else. Everyone wants to be a millionaire.
The other part that bothers me a bit is that many people shop via the internet without even giving the local store a shot at the sale that hurts. Especially when, after you just bought a new mouthpiece on line, you go into the local music store and ask them to sponsor your child’s softball team. Where are they going to get the money to do that when you took your business on line and never gave them a chance to impress you? Yes, that happens a lot. Sorry for being so long winded.
The original topic was about B quality instruments. As a dealer in PA for 50 years I'm certain that WWBW sells grade A instruments and doesn't sell B quality things retail without the customer knowing full well what they are getting.
Scott Brodt
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-05-22 04:02
I've never ordered an instrument from WWBW, so I can't comment on the quality. If the changes that you are describing are true, it's quite a shame.
A couple years ago, I was shopping for a new clarinet for my daughter. I wanted her to be able to try the big brands and compare them. In my area (a major metropolitan area), it is impossible. Several stores stock Buffet, but nobody seems to stock the higher-end instruments from the other companies. I suppose I could have had WWBW ship several instruments so that she could have tried them, but I wanted to support my local music dealers. I did consider driving to South Bend if this couldn't be done. In the end, I found a good deal on a Buffet locally, so that's what we purchased.
Most local music stores make their money renting and selling student-line instruments (at least, that's what I've noticed). I've found that they'll be happy to specially order a higher-end instrument if you request it, but there's no opportunity to try several first.
I have a close relationship with a local music store, and I asked about them selling some higher-end instruments like the Bliss. The owner showed a little interest, but he explained that he didn't think there would be much of a market for them. He explained that if he ordered some, the store would have to buy them from Conn-Selmer. If the instruments didn't sell, he'd be stuck with them. I asked if the clarinets could be "borrowed" from the manufacturer with the understanding that if they didn't sell, they could be returned. He said no.
I think it's safe to say that in this bad economy, the market for higher-end instruments of any kind is not particularly strong. I've noticed that parents will pay for student-line instruments, but purchasing a better instrument as a student moves into middle school or high school is not a top priority. In my area, which can be described as middle income/middle America, a few parents do buy better instruments for their kids as they get older, but these parents are most definitely a small minority. Local music stores know this, and they know that stocking a large selection of "better" instruments is a money-losing proposition.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-22 12:26
Scott,
Well stated and to the point. Too many people tend to look only at the bottom line and are not aware how important customer service is until it is missing.
There is a small hardware store in my town that I patronize as much as possible. Lowe's and Home Depot are right down the road, Have you ever been able to purchase much less find many of the small items that a home handyman.
I also try to get as many things from Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds in Lansing, MI as I can. He stands behind everything, is great to deal with, and gives me a fair price (I've never price-shopped and do not even know if it is higher or lower than WWBW and don't even care). And he's a fantastic repair tech. When you contact him, ask him about the Satchmo I bought recently.
HRL
Post Edited (2009-05-22 14:16)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-22 12:41
I was in WW&BW twice. Once in late 90s in the (now gone) NY store and once a few years ago in their main store in Indiana. Some of the instruments had some adjustment problems typical of a store not checking an instrument first, but none (from I'm guessing about 20 instruments I've tried) seemed to be "B stock" and actually most were excellent.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2009-05-22 14:11
<<<<I have a close relationship with a local music store, and I asked about them selling some higher-end instruments like the Bliss. The owner showed a little interest, but he explained that he didn't think there would be much of a market for them.<<<<
This is the fear that we all have; if I order high end stock and it doesn't sell I'm out of business, Conn/Selmer, Buffet, Yamaha will not take them back. As small dealers we don't get those wonderful back door deals that the Magnificent 7 were getting years ago, (WWBW, Brook Mays, Chuck Levin...)
but the playing field is more level at the moment.
Think about this, if you don't stock it, they won't come. In your area there are probably 2 to 6 top end teachers, the ones that always seem to get a lot of kids into the State bands, into Julliard, Peabody or Eastman. You need to stock what THEY think is a preferred, or the best selection of pro instruments and accessories. I'm not telling you to brown nose, but if your local pro teacher loves Buffet you need to have a great selection of Buffet clarinets, priced well, along with good barrels (if you can get them).
Yes, it's a risk, but well designed risks often pay off in loyal teachers and repeat customers.
Scott Brodt
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-05-22 14:27
Yup.
The local stores that have experienced workers, not the local guitar shop that carries a couple of reeds. Not a lot of them left that haven't been bought up.
There's a large chain (M&A) which buys up the local shops and they are no longer local shops anymore - basically the Walmart of music stores.
Don't like em at all. I'd rather do business with Muncy, Weiner, or WWBW than M&A.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2009-05-22 15:10
I would like to share my experience in dealing with a local store, as I received some unexpected help when I was planning to buy an R-13.
There are many stores here in the Washington DC area, but most seemed to cater to young students and didn't offer R-13s at a competitive price. However, a saleslady at one of the stores I visited, after becoming convinced that I was set on an R-13, told me she could not get them at a good price by ordering them in quantities of one. She then advised me where to buy one locally (an hour's drive in Washington traffic) for a good price, which I did. The price I paid was competitive with any of the internet prices I had seen.
Now, whenever I buy something locally, I only patronize the store that gave me the good advice. Even though they aren't nearly as convenient as several others, I feel they deserve my business in return for the help they provided.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-05-22 16:42
Interesting comments. I was thinking about something today: If you want to buy a piece of furniture and all the furniture store has is the floor model, no big deal. The store orders you an exact copy of what is on display and delivers it to you. The same holds true for most common consumer products.
As we all know, this does not work with musical instruments. Wouldn't it be ideal if a customer could go into a music store, try demo clarinets from a few different companies, and order the instrument of his/her choice? The customer would do this knowing that the instrument ordered would play exactly the same as the demo in the store. This might be possible with student line instruments, but I don't know if it could be done with professional models.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-05-23 00:43
>>>A customer could go into a music store, try demo clarinets from a few different companies, and order the instrument of his/her choice? The customer would do this knowing that the instrument ordered would play exactly the same as the demo in the store. This might be possible with student line instruments, but I don't know if it could be done with professional models.<<<
Not a chance. Especially with a certain manufacturer (who will remain nameless, lest someone come to my house and break my knees) variations from instrument to instrument are so wide that you can never be sure a specific model will be to your liking by trying one and ordering with the hope that the new one will be the same. You sometimes have to try more than 20 samples of a very popular model of clarinet to find one that is truly of high quality and will not need a great deal of work. That's why folks who advertise here, like Walter Grabner, Lisa's Clarinet Shop and Gregory Smith, all offer personal selection of Buffet clarinets, either from the US distributor or direct from Buffet in Paris.
If the one in the displaycase plays well, why not just buy that one? It's a known quality instrument, unlike the one which will get shipped from the US distributor.
Here in the Detroit area, you might consider Anderson Music. The Troy store has a top notch tech, and the Dearborn store has a pretty decent selection of quality clarinets, new and used. I have all my service done in Troy. This store is not far from Oak Park at all. It's on Rochester Road, north of Big Beaver Rd. Most of the other Oakland County stores are pretty abysmal.
Jeff
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-05-23 01:50
Someone might come to your house and brake your knees because you said that the manufacture would remain nameless but yet you blow it by saying trying more than 20 samples and Buffet clarinets hand select service from Grabner,Lisa and Smith. Everybody could see you were talking about Buffet clarinets and the R-13 model
I for sure hope that nobody will brake you knees but who knows what the Buffet mafia will do.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-05-23 02:36
>>>A customer could go into a music store, try demo clarinets from a few different companies, and order the instrument of his/her choice? The customer would do this knowing that the instrument ordered would play exactly the same as the demo in the store. This might be possible with student line instruments, but I don't know if it could be done with professional models.<<<
Keep in mind that MOST of the traffic in the music business is with *maintenance products*. I am sure music stores make more of a regular profit from selling guitar STRINGS than guitars themselves; same with reeds vs. clarinets.
I think that these are probably the worst areas in which local stores lose out to the big discount retailers. Sure I want to play the actual clarinet that I will buy, but a box of 10 reeds in my local store has the same chances of being good as a box from online- and since you can't play test reeds like you can with instruments, you might as well go for the discount right? Same goes for scores, CDs, books, software, etc.
I think that is the biggest financial problem facing local dealers in any product market.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-05-23 13:28
The Internet changed retail forever including the music instrument business. The WWBW was always very competitive in terms of price and inventory, but the Internet helped it become the Amazon.com of the music business. I am sure that is one big reason Guitar Center purchased WWBW - the customer base.
There are some ways a local dealer can compete. Including:
1) High service levels by a knowledgeable staff.
2) Specialization in an instrument, or area of instrument sales so that customers will pay a premium for the information.
3) Rental to schools in the area (Biggest source of revenue)
4) A good internet site that is regularly maintained and has content as well as product prices.
5)Sales of accessories which some have already said offers higher margins than actual instrument sales
6) A competent repair technician(s) - most people will not mail their instrument for a repair that can be done quickly even if it cost more locally.
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-05-23 13:35
Dileep Gangolli wrote:
> The Internet changed retail forever including the music
> instrument business. The WWBW was always very competitive in
> terms of price and inventory, but the Internet helped it become
> the Amazon.com of the music business. I am sure that is one
> big reason Guitar Center purchased WWBW - the customer base.
>
Well since WWBW was going bankrupt, it was presumably not profitable. Something wasn't right in its business model. Guitar Center thought it could do something with the assets (like customer base) but it has and will have to change WWBW to make and keep it profitable. It will probably not change for the better from the musician's point of view.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2009-05-24 19:44
Pappy,
Please remember that WWBW went under because of the law suit between D. Bamber and E. Zapf, who was the guy that BUILT that website. Eric had a terrific website up in Philly and running long before Bamber knew how to log onto a computer, but the deal to purchase that site didn't go as planned and Mr. Zapf got screwed, big time.
Rather than pay Eric what he was owed, Bamber declared bankruptcy and stepped back.
You can find news articles on this all over the web still today, it's a good reading except for the ending, Eric is a great guy and didn't deserve what he got.
Scott Brodt
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-05-25 14:54
Here's a link that tells much of the story: http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/print/157194506.html
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-26 01:13
I think what it might mean is that there are several clarinet shops that a player hand picks out the instruments from the factory or US distributor and the others go into normal inventory. If there are a dozen shops that do that in the US then it would take what those players consider the "best" instruments out of distribution. Therefor everyone else gets the remaining instruments. Many of those shops advertise "hand picked" instruments. But you have to remember. They were picked by someone else with their mouthpiece and concept. It will probably mean that they won't pick an instrument with major problems but if they are actually the best, maybe, maybe not. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: selmerplayer
Date: 2009-05-26 01:38
Ed Palanker wrote:
> I think what it might mean is that there are several clarinet
> shops that a player hand picks out the instruments from the
> factory or US distributor and the others go into normal
> inventory. If there are a dozen shops that do that in the US
> then it would take what those players consider the "best"
> instruments out of distribution. Therefor everyone else gets
> the remaining instruments. Many of those shops advertise "hand
> picked" instruments. But you have to remember. They were
> picked by someone else with their mouthpiece and concept. It
> will probably mean that they won't pick an instrument with
> major problems but if they are actually the best, maybe, maybe
> not. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
So here's my question and I'm anxious to know. Would a beginner or even an experienced non-professional be able to tell the difference between the hand picked and normal inventory?
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Author: selmerplayer
Date: 2009-05-26 02:02
Here's a link that tells much of the story: http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/print/157194506.html
So who owns WWBW now?
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