 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Simon
Date: 2009-04-06 06:04
I know this has been covered many times on the BB but I am still not exactly sure how to do it and why it is done. Is it for speed and is double tonguing, tonguing a note twice as opposed to tonguing a note once in single tonguing?
Your advice is most appreciated.
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2009-04-06 08:50
Double tonguing is a technique aiming at faster staccato notes by producing two staccato notes per tongue movement instead of one.
Where in single-tonguing you just move your tongue tip up to the reed and back, with double-tonguing you try to produce two notes in rapid succession with one movement: one when the tongue tip hits the reed, and another one when you bring your tongue back in a way that it somehow touches the palate (imagine saying "tic-a-tic-a-tic" very fast).
This is just the general idea - since I have never mastered this art, you should turn to others for more detailed advice. The search function should be very helpful here.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-04-06 15:42
Basically, two methods:
1) Ta-Ka, Ta-Ka (double) Ta-Ta-Ka, Ta-Ta-Ka, (triple)
This method is also used by most brass players for multiple tonguing. Robert Spring advocates this method.
2) Ta-Der, Da-Der, Da-Der (double) Ta-Der-Da, Ta-Der-Da (triple)
The second involves flipping the tongue up over the tip of the reed and striking it again as it comes back down. *Ta* gets it going, then its Da-Der after that. John Bruce-Yeh of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra uses this method because it works best for him in the upper registers--C6 and up.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2009-04-06 19:07
William:
Triple tonguing is actually "Ta-Ka-Ta, Ta-Ka-Ta". It's a subtle but big difference.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-04-06 19:39
What I have noticed while trying to learn this and indeed speaking to colleagues that play the flute, oboe and bassoon is that your air support needs to be really strong in order for the KA or GA to sound equal to the first toungue stroke.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2009-04-06 19:40)
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Author: Liam Murphy
Date: 2009-04-07 00:59
Matt Locker said:
>>Triple tonguing is actually "Ta-Ka-Ta, Ta-Ka-Ta". It's a subtle but big difference. <<
I've had far greater success with the method as described my William.
Almost every brass player I'm acquainted with describes triple tonguing as William does.
The “big difference” that I see: with the T-T-k T-T-k pattern the accent will naturally fall on the first note of the triplet rather than having a stronger attack in the middle of a triplet.
The sound of T-k-T T-k-T is lumpy and less rhythmically controllable for me, but may well work fine for you.
I believe the ends justify the means in this regard, so either pattern is fine if it works, however I suggest that you give the other pattern a go.
- Liam
Post Edited (2009-04-07 02:26)
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Author: Simon
Date: 2009-04-07 03:17
Thank you all, I will give this a try.
One more question, so at what point does one know they need to use double or tripple tonguing? Is it when the task can't be acomplished with single.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2009-04-07 15:33
Liam:
I learned triple-tonguing on horn. I personally can't imagine using t-t-k as it feels so clunky but it may be something that is learnable. I'll need to give it a try.
Apologies to William. I was too quick on the Enter key!
Thanks,
Matt
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-10 23:12
It's certainly pretty well always audible... on the other hand it is for lots of other instruments as well! I always find it funny to hear brass players clunking away on semis at crotchet=120 or even slower with their ks sticking out like the dog's proverbials while the clarinets aren't getting close to their single-tonguing limit yet.
It's important to practise ktkt and even kkkk as well to help even up the two attacks.
There's another variety of double tonguing which is related to William's "Ta-der-da-der": it's a gentler back-and-forth variety called diddle tonguing for what I hope are obvious reasons (you 'pronounce' didlidlidlidl...). It doesn't give crisp articulations but is rather fun for going very fast indeed.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-04-10 23:57
The "diddle" method--as described--is not at all related to what I was trying to describe as "flip" where the tongue actually passes up over the tip of the reed for the first attack with the second attack occuring as the tongue comes back down over the tip. Up-down, up-down, etc over the tip producing very crisp attacks--much moreso than the back-tongue strick with your "diddle" (or maybe I just don't get it). In any case, whenever possible, single tonguing is best.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-11 00:02
The real question is why....? Why would anyone spend the time that would be needed to do this effectively when they could be working on sound, reeds, technique, literature....etc.
While I have heard a select few clarinetists double tongue effectively, it comes at the expense of music making or sound. Much better to throw in a few slurs or be able to single tongue like Stanley Drucker.
As an orchestral technique, it is effective when the clarinet doubles the violins (Rossini comes to mind (esp William Tell overture)) but never in an orchestral solo that I can think of.
And as far as solo contemporary playing, I have never heard it done effectively as a way of adding to the musical intent of the composer....
Other thoughts???
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-11 07:49
"The "diddle" method--as described--is not at all related to what I was trying to describe as "flip""
...fair enough, I only meant that it's another method in which the tongue moves up and down. It certainly won't have the _same_ results - it's a different effect which I think also has its place.
"And as far as solo contemporary playing, I have never heard it done effectively as a way of adding to the musical intent of the composer...."
oh well, I have. :-) For quite a while some composers have just expected it to be available - think of the Ravel Introduction and Allegro for example (and diddle is very useful indeed on all those sextuplets). There's a passage in the Nielsen concerto (the più vivo before figure 33) where he's used a notation that in flute music certainly means double tonguing.
I think once we have things like that to offer, composers find interesting ways to use them. Which is how technical innovations have always worked, isn't it? I don't think Mozart wrote a concerto with no idea what the clarinet's lowest note was and then left Stadler to figure out what to do with it... ;-)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-04-11 14:25
Oliver,
Stadler invented the basset clarinet whilst improving the basset horn with the Viennese maker Lotz. He asked Mozart to write the pieces he wrote. Unless you were being sarcastic which is hard to tell here sometimes.
regards
Peter Cigleris
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-11 15:57
Oops, sorry, I thought the wink would have given it away! Didn't mean to be obscure. :-)
Yes, I was certainly being sarcastic. My point was that Stadler didn't think: oh, low E's been low enough for everyone else, don't see why I should bother taking the thing any lower, after all there's no music where you need it.
And I think it's a pity when people say: single tonguing is fast enough for everyone else, don't see why I should bother learning to double tongue, after all there's no music where you need it.
No, maybe there isn't - yet. (In fact as far as I'm concerned yes there is, but that's another matter.) But if we have it to offer then everyone's better off, no? Composers have more to draw upon, they have one more reason to write for clarinet, music to come draws on a richer range of resources.
(In fact people are already writing for it and have been for some decades so this discussion is a bit historical by now...)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-04-11 16:08
Oliver,
I totally agree with you. I've been learning it on and off for the past 12 months but put off learning it because my single tonguing was pretty fast. But now I realise that double tonguing is as important as single, especially in some orchestral contexts. Flute players and double reed players have been using it for a long time why shouldn't we?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: hinotehud ★2017
Date: 2009-04-11 21:08
I have a question that I haven't seen addressed yet. Herb Couf (1st chair Detroit Symphony at one time) was my high school clarinet teacher. He used to double tongue and sounded great. I learned to double tongue on flute about 40 years ago. When I try it on clarinet, my tone scoops when I get around D in the staff. I get a "Tah-Kwah" sound. No matter where I place the "G" or 'K" it makes the tone scoop. (I also bend tones by moving my tongue position in the back part of my mouth.) When I talk to people who can double tongue effectively, they tell to just keep practicing, it will come. I find there are some people who can double tongue on higher notes on the first try. Others are like me that can double tongue on the lower notes but not when it gets higher in the staff.
My question to those who can double tongue is: did any of you start off with my problem and overcame it?
Right now, I'm thinking that the individual shape of our mouth or tongue determines whether or not a person will be successful at this.
Keith Hudson
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Author: Liam Murphy
Date: 2009-04-11 23:44
Keith,
>>>>My question to those who can double tongue is: did any of you start off with my problem and overcame it? <<<<
I think everyone experiences this problem, and nobody completely overcomes it.
Depending on my mouthpiece/reed/clarinet selection, double tonguing (t-k-t-k) becomes useless around clarion A to C.
Good luck,
- Liam
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-12 09:15
"Right now, I'm thinking that the individual shape of our mouth or tongue determines whether or not a person will be successful at this."
It determines a lot of things, that's clear. It must surely make a difference if one player has a tongue that's pretty much straight while playing and another has a tongue that's curled up, for example.
I also can't use tktk effectively past the range Liam describes. (Although (or rather because!) it's not so clear an articulation, diddle works for me quite a bit higher and the 'scoop' effect is less. I haven't used the 'flip' effect as described upthread.)
I feel it's important to practise kkkk and ktkt as well as tktk - in fact sometimes ktkt can be more even for me. Certainly practising kkkk is what did the most for me. It's very tiring though. But on the upside that means you don't take up much time practising it. ;-)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-12 09:26
Some player use for triple tonguing t-k-t - k-t-k (i.e. double tonguing just triplets).
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-12 09:34
...which is itself good for training the evenness of the k bit so you win both ways!
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