 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-02-12 19:25
Hello all,
After searching previous threads, there seems to be very little information out there about the serial numbers of Leblanc basset horns and corresponding age. After considerable searching I've reached the hypothesis that bassets were numbered within the same series as bass clarinets, and I wonder if you agree or disagree with this. Here are some of the pieces of evidence:
1. Based on an old post by larryb http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=204017&t=204008 , we have an approximate date for his BH S/N 17xx of 1961.
2. Based on the presumed low production rate, my BH S/N 80xx would be pretty high (i.e. fairly new) if bassets were given their own series.
3. My BH probably predates my 1975 Leblanc bass, given the style of the logo - G above and "Leblanc" conforming to the outline of the border, and the fact that the automatic single register vent is tied to the thumb key, rather than to the A key. My '75 bass and the latest BHs have the A key mechanism. As further evidence, my BH is not fitted with a floor peg.
4. The well known Leblanc serial number logs (esp. drrick.com) do not give a separate category for the BH, or, for that matter, for the much more common alto clarinet.
So, if I'm right, then my instrument would fall into the 1964 range of serial numbers. Does this seem reasonable?
Thanks for any input that would support or cast doubt on this conclusion.
Best regards,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-12 22:51
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnLeblanc.htm#SNLeblanc (sorry - I can't make the link clickable) I'm not sure where basset horns, altos and other harmony clarinets (apart from basses) fall into this list, or if they got numbered along with sopranos.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-02-12 22:52)
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-02-13 15:23
Hello Chris,
Thanks for your post. I'm familiar with the page you cited, and it looks like the information is substantially the same as on the Dr. Rick page I referenced. It seems odd that no information seems to be available for Leblanc altos (and bassets), especially since intermediate (Noblet) altos are listed.
Another interesting feature of Steve Sklar's Clarinet Perfection page is the set of logo images. I have three Leblanc instruments, one with each of emblems 1, 2 and 3. From what I understand, #2 should be the oldest ("G" in line with "Leblanc"), followed by #3; #1 being the newest. My Dynamique A clarinet, which I've come to believe dates from the early 1950s is the oldest of my three instruments and has emblem #2. The s/n of the A is "1A", obviously not part of the normal run of soprano clarinet numbers. The bass (Model 400), s/n-dated to 1975, has emblem #1. The basset, s/n 80xx, has emblem #3. It also has the older, thumb-key-coupled, automatic single register vent. All of this makes me pretty confident that the age of the basset lies somewhere between the other two instruments.
The date of 1964 based on the bass clarinet series seem quite plausible. I'm wondering if there's other evidence out there that would confirm or refute the idea that the bassets and altos may have been numbered within the bass series (which we already know contained a host of different models of bass clarinets).
Incidentally, when I got my BH from the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, they were also selling a second BH the s/n of which immediately followed the one I bought. I wonder if the two instruments were made to order at that time. Surely Leblanc wouldn't have been carrying a large inventory of basset horns (?)
Best regards,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-02-17 02:05
Sorry to be keeping my own thread alive, but I just found a couple more bits of data on bass clarinets on an auction site.
s/n 9613 dates from 1969. It is an LL model with emblem #3 per the Clarinet Perfection site, same as my basset 80xx. Unlike my basset, it has the automatic register key tied to the A key.
s/n 10718 dates from 1972. It is also an LL model, but has emblem #1.
My bass is s/n 116xx from 1975. It does not have the LL inscription and has emblem #1.
If the basset horn were numbered in with the bass clarinets, it would date from 1964, and the physical characterists seem consistent with a bass of that vintage.
Regards,
Jim
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Author: John25
Date: 2009-02-17 13:53
I bought my Leblanc basset-horn brand-new on 23rd November 1961. The serial number is 5575. I hope this helps.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-02-17 16:50
John25,
Thanks very much for your input. This is an excellent bit of data.
I also checked on altos on an auction site and found numbers 5286 and 7160. Both have the #3 emblem cited previously. Alto 7160 has the same style, presumed original, case as bass 9613.
It's too early for any solid conclusions, but it remains plausible that basses, bassets and altos my have had a common serialization.
Jim
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-02-18 15:33
My LeBlanc basset horn was bought new in 1988 and is serial #9374. It has a lovely sound and sounds like the narrow bore bassets of other brands I've heard in person or in recordings. It doesn't have near the resistance that the narrow bore models that Ive tried.
It is a great horn although I have to pull out the neckjoint 1/4-1/2" (either at the base or at the mouthpiece / neckjoint junction (or better both) to get it in tune with A440 instruments. It is dead on in tune at A442 so it must've been made for the European market. Had thought of buying a longer neckjoint that they are apparently are making with the newer models. Are others' LeBlanc basset horns also a bit high in pitch?
Eefer guy
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-02-19 18:29
Hello Eefer Guy,
Thanks for adding your information. 1988 is a long time (ten years) after a bass of comparable s/n would have been made. Steve Sklar suggested to me privately that probably the BH were made a batch at a time, and kept a while in inventory. Perhaps the best thing there is to go on is physical characteristics. Could you describe yours with respect to the following: Is the emblem of the late type (block letters) per the Clarinet Perfection site, or the somewhat earlier type with the top of the letters following a curve? (Mine follows the curve.) Is your register vent switching tied to the A key or to the thumb? (Mine is on the thumb.) Is yours fitted with a floor peg. (Mine has no peg.)
I haven't done enough listening, nor recorded myself, to be able to compare my sound with that of narrow bore instruments. However, I've had several comments on the sound from others as I've been playing (solo) alto parts in a clarinet choir. I think the basset is a wonderful sub for an alto, and is well worth the trouble of transposing. Moreover, there's a lot of latitude for changing the sound quality by changing the set up.
My Leblanc basset horn isn't high at all. With the Leblanc mouthpiece that came with the horn I pull out perhaps 1/10" With the Hite mouthpiece I'm now using it's spot on A440 pushed all the way in.
We my be able to get a handle on whether the pitch difference is in the length of the neck. I put a string through mine and stretched it the shortest way from the bottom edge to the top edge. That measurement is 9 cm (3.54"). The length of the tenon from the bottom edge to the collar is 1.75 cm (0.687") and the depth of the mouthpiece tenon socket is 1.82 cm (0.718")
Best regards,
Jim
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-02-20 00:11
Jim,
OK mine has block letters, vented on the thumb, and a floor peg. The case is an odd shade of maroon. Only the low C is played with the right hand thumb, which doesn't match any of the layouts in the Basset horn book. I do wish it had a D or C# down there too. The C# is in the top row for RH pinky and the Eb in the same position as on the alto and Eb basses, bottom row RH pinky. The D is the only basset note played by the left hand pinky. This makes some movements impossible like a C#-Eb trilll or even a fast passage. Thankfully most of the solos involving the basset notes are fairly slow or involve just one of the basswet notes in a run.
I have played the basset as an alto substitute until my Prestige alto arrived. It is a better horn yet. It was certainly Bufffet's finest day of clarinet making IMHO!
Maybe this pitch problem is a problem for me and not the instruments as I have to pull out a good bit on the Prestige bass and I use the long neckjoint on the Prestige alto too. On the other hand I play the Eefer in really good tune all the way to high C. Must be something in my embouchure or maybe throat. I started on Eefer at 9. My neck joint might be a hundreth or two shorter too if my meausuring is correct. It even fits a bit loose in the compartment. the other joints fit snugly.
There apparently is a larger neck joint available on the new ones but I haven't bought one.
Eefer guy
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Author: larryb
Date: 2009-02-20 00:33
Hi Leblanc Basset Horn guys,
Eefer guy wrote: "Thankfully most of the solos involving the basset notes are fairly slow or involve just one of the basset notes in a run."
Having recently performed Elektra on my Leblanc BH, I can attest to the fact that there are way too many wickedly fast and tortuous passages, including many basset note runs.
My horn doesn't have a floor peg, and I think it might have helped. Also, there are numerous low Ab-Eb passages that are nearly impossible to play cleanly, unless you're double jointed in the right pinky.
Mine tunes sharp relative to a=440. Only came with one short neck/bocal.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-02-20 04:23
Eefer Guy,
Well, the block letter logo in combination with your s/n seems to throw my theory about being serialized with the basses into a cocked hat. The 9613 bass from 1969 had the curved-top letters. Evidently the bassets had the venting on the thumb a lot later than the basses. From pictures on current dealer web sites it appears that they eventually went to the A key mechanism.
My original case is very rudimentary (read flimsy) with the remains of a "Leblanc" decal. I expect this was strictly for the non-US market. My keywork is exactly as you described - silver plated, by the way.
Tuning of these bigger horns is a mystery to me. Years ago when I was doing a little doubling on bass, I had a terrible time getting down to pitch on every horn I tried. When I picked up bass again recently I had the same problem, but I soon found myself pulling out less and less, and now it's not a problem.
Thanks again for all the info.
Jim
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-02-20 17:45
Larry,
I agree that Elektra does work the bassrt notes HARD. As I remember I had to stick a tongued note in order for it to work, mostly as written. Luckily Elektra seems to be the exception not the rule!
Any other cures for the slightly sharp nature of the horn other than pulling out the neck joint?
Eefer guy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-20 18:08
Will a larger chambered or larger bore mouthpiece lower the pitch enough?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-02-20 22:26
Chris,
Good question! I use mainly the Hite alto mouthpiece wth the LeBlanc basse horn although the Java reeds that i just bought sound really good with the Grabner mouthpiece on my Prestige alto. Will check to see what sort of pitch that makes.
That's why tis group is SO amazing. It's realy added tremendously to my playing.
eefer guy
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-02-23 19:50
Hi All,
Here are the conclusions reached based on the inputs I've received regarding the relationship between BH age and serial numbers:
1. There doesn't appear to be a direct relationship between bass clarinet age, serial numbers, emblems or mechanisms and those of bassets.
2. We have been given definite purchase years and serial numbers of basset by John25 and eefer guy that span the years 1961 and 1988.
3. Absent further hard evidence, it seems reasonable to guess that about the same number of bassets per year were sold during that time and that on average the same number were made, albeit possibly in builds that could have been years apart. Therefore, a best guess is that serial numbers vs. years placed in service should follow an approximately straight line between 1961 and 1988. (It can be demonstrated from the serial number logs that that assumption is true of bass clarinets.)
4. The fact that the serial number provided in an earlier thread by larryb would result in an impossibly early date indicates that there's a limit to how much we can extrapolate to years earlier than 1961.
The bottom line is that the best-guess date placed in service for Leblanc basset horns sold between 1961 and 1988 is given by the following:
In service date = 1961 + 0.0071 * (s/n - 5575)
Example: My s/n is 8059, which yields a date of 1978.6, or approx. 1979.
Best regards,
Jim
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Author: Dianne M.
Date: 2015-05-18 20:19
Dear Jim,
I am just finding this in May 2015 and figured out how to enter this site just to answer you. I have a Leblanc basset horn SN 11067, no floor peg, block letter logo (which does not say France underneath it, by the way. It was purchased by a now-deceased friend directly from Leon Leblanc, who was a friend, probably in the early 1980s (though it's not impossible that it was late 1970s). At any rate it was before 1986 when I met her, and she hadn't owned it all that long. It's a wonderful instrument. My clarinet guy here in the Boston area tried to find a peg "kit" for it but Leblanc doesn't have one. I bought a guitar footrest for $20 and put it on the floor in front of me--it's got a nice rubber cover so won't hurt the bell, and even though I keep the neckstrap engaged for security the footrest is a great peg substitute.
I would love to know the exact date of manufacture, since the legend is that my friend Marilyn had it manufactured for her so knowing the serial number date would tell me when she bought it (as opposed to assuming it was picked out of an inventory of unknown timespan). Did you ever find any more information after your excellent February 23 2009 final post?
Dianne M.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2015-05-18 20:44
Hi Dianne,
Unfortunately, I haven't pursued this matter further. In the summer of 2009 I traded in my basset horn on a French horn, which is now my instrument of choice. As for fitting a peg, the last I knew it was possible to get a bass clarinet peg assembly, which can be adapted well to the smaller bell. I've had this done on a Leblanc alto clarinet. Unless you have someone who can install the peg mount and make it look "original" you might consider acquiring a used alto clarinet bell so you can keep your original bell pristine. As I recall, the basset and alto bells were the same, though I could be mistaken.
Best regards,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: Dianne M.
Date: 2015-05-18 21:06
Thanks for your speedy reply, Jim. Gosh, French Horn "instrument of choice" now? To each his own 8>).
Thanks for ideas re: peg, too. I wondered about just buying a basset horn bell with peg as manufactured for later models. Intend to pursue this with Leblanc and see whether it's financially sensible.
If anyone else has more SN information I'm all ears.
Dianne
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-05-18 23:22
Leblanc haven't made their professional model clarinets for some years now and the French made harmony clarinets for even longer so getting parts could be a big problem.
However the USA made altos were modelled closely on the professional ones so getting a peg assembly for one of those is probably reasonably easy.
I have just made a peg assembly for a recently acquired Semer Paris alto clarinet so any competent tech should be able to design and make one to fit you instrument.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2015-05-19 00:04
Ferree's Tools has the Leblanc bass clarinet peg assembly. I've had it successfully installed on a Leblanc alto.
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Author: Dianne M.
Date: 2015-05-19 02:29
Thanks to both Norman and 78s2CD. I am energized about researching a peg for my beautiful basset horn. I have worried that installing anything on the existing bell would be risky as regards aesthetics. But it sounds like further investigation is in order.
Dianne
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Author: Michel48
Date: 2015-05-19 11:12
I think that my Leblanc basset horn (sérial number 9738) is older than 1977 because it has only one thumb key for low C (cf Newhill the basset-horn and its music page 26,27)
Key for low D is for left finger and C# is for right finger.
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Author: Dianne M.
Date: 2015-05-19 19:21
Hi Johan,
As I've said, my basset horn SN 11067 is almost certainly from the early 1980s, possibly late 1970s. The bass clarinet listing places that serial number in 1973, which I'm almost positive is too early. There is an off chance that I'm wrong, but the friend who purchased the instrument from Leon Leblanc is no longer with us so I can't verify. My recollection is that when I met her in 1986 she hadn't had the instrument all that long.
Perhaps we'll never know for sure.
Dianne
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Author: SteveP
Date: 2015-05-19 20:05
My Leblanc Model 315S Basset Horn was bought new in the late 1990's -
I forget which year exactly- and is serial number 9749.
I don't think these numbers show up in the Leblanc Bass Clarinet list - the model 315 was not part of the list.
The "G" in the logo is on the top of the symbol above the "Leblanc."
Keywork is low "C" on the right thumb, Dflat and Eflat on right pinky, D on left pinky, no left hand alternate Eflat.
Mine came with a peg. The case is a maroon color, same exterior dimensions as the eflat bass cases of that era, different interior. Solidly made. It has a black Leblanc canvas and leather case cover.
Throat mechanism is similar to the Stubbins mechanism in that the register key and the Bflat key are on a rocker actuated by the thumb and the throat "A" key.
Pushed in pitch is 442, but tunes easily to 440 with a small pull at the bocal using a Grabner mpc.
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Author: Dianne M.
Date: 2015-05-19 20:55
Wow, Steve, that does put a new wrench in things. By the late '90s could the horn have been manufactured in the US? Or could the serial number series have been altered when Leblanc USA took over management of the French company in 1989? Does the logo say "Paris" and/or "France"? (My logo is block form and says "Paris" under "Leblanc" but does not say "France" below the emblem as some photos of other clarinets have shown.)
And how do you know the model number? Is it stamped on the instrument?
Keywork sounds the same as my older, peg-less one.
Mystery continues to grow.
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Author: SteveP
Date: 2015-05-19 21:14
Dianne M.;
I got it from Woodwind and Brasswind. The label on it and the accompanying Leblanc paperwork described it as a Model 315S. There were two versions at the time - 315 with nickel keys, 315S with silver keys. Mine has silver keys.
The logo says "Paris" in small letters underneath "Leblanc". At the back of the top joint just below the socket ring, it says in small letters "Made in France".
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-05-20 04:21
Dianne/Steve,
I might have to use the 0.1% escape possibility I gave myself. :-)
Could Leblanc have switched number series for the basset horn?
There's clearly something strange with Dianne's 11067 from the early 80s and Steve's 9759 from the late 90s. I have seen pictures of an instrument with serial 99XX where the case was of the same kind as Leblanc's soprano clarinets from the late 90s and early 00s (that black leather case with metallic protection at the corners).
This instrument has serial 14644 which is the highest I have seen for basset horns:
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/LeblancBH-Aoalsteinn.html (not for sale)
It does look a little old. Look at the logo and the case.
Post Edited (2015-05-20 04:27)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-05-25 02:14
This instrument has serial 9547 and is told to be dated 1982:
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/09102/_CM_0840711.html
Beautiful pictures. Should be on display at the "Musée des Instruments à Vent" in LA COUTURE-BOUSSEY, where the Leblanc factory was located.
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Author: Dianne M.
Date: 2015-05-25 18:55
Hi Johan,
For what it's worth, my case is identical to the one shown in the Clarinets Direct photos except that the loops for the peg (which my instrument does not have) are on the front edge of the case rather than on the bottom of the lid.
I've assumed the integral peg assembly came later, so my 11067 being older than this one makes sense. Now, the 9547 you show in your second post, said to be from 1982, is identical to mine in keywork and logo--and because of the silver ring on the bottom joint I'm thinking the peg assembly was added to it (the assembly is different on 14644, the 1985 one from John Peacock's post). If that's the case, and the presence of an integral floor peg indicates a later model, then 9547-11067-14644 is at least a reasonable time sequence, and mine would fall in 1983-1984.
But does it seem strange that 5,000 basset horns would be made/sold over an approximately 3-year period?
And why does my case have a slot for a peg? Maybe my friend replaced the original case for some reason?
Ah, the mystery of it all.
Dianne
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-05-25 23:20
I would think that Leblanc has never made 5000 basset horns in total let alone in 3 years.
It would seem more likely that the basset horns share a serial number scheme with other harmony clarinets.
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Author: Dianne M.
Date: 2015-05-25 23:40
Norman, I absolutely agree that this is the likely answer. At least I think I've now got an approximate time nailed for mine--1983 or 4. The peg thing is mysterious--as is the absence of any records on harmony clarinet serial numbers that would solve this with certainty.
Fun not to discuss reeds etc., but I will say that I love my new Vandoren alto clarinet Optima ligature for my B40 mouthpiece I use on the basset horn.
Thanks to all for entering into this, and if anyone has more data--basset horn, case, peg history-- I'm always happy to see it.
Dianne
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2015-05-26 00:13
One final point: It was suggested by someone that a block of serial numbers may have been set aside for bassets. If this were true, then the relationship between numbers and production or distribution dates may have been problematic.
Best regards,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-05-26 00:26
I agree that a common number series for alto and basset horn looks likely.
Dianne, the bell might have been damaged/lost and replaced by an alto bell without a peg.
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Author: SteveP
Date: 2015-05-27 01:04
Johan,
You posted a link to several pictures in the museum at: http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/09102/_CM_0840711.html
My bassethorn, #9749 (I posted about it earlier), is identical to that one in the pictures. I thought about posting some photos of mine, but I would not be able to equal the quality of those the museum posted.
There is an interesting difference between these and the one you linked at http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/LeblancBH-Aoalsteinn.html. That one has a single section lower joint. Others are made of two sections with a normal socket-tenon-cork and joined by a permanent metal ring and screws. I know what is inside these because I used to own a Leblanc 330 low C bass with the same construction. It had a peg double-body mounted to the lower joint, and developed a wobble, so when having it repaired we unscrewed the retainer ring and overhauled the cork, and cleaned up the retainer screws for a more stable fit. That bass dated from the late 60s, and was single register, low C, with fork alternate Eflat keying.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-05-27 01:55
SteveP: the distinction between the single and composite lower joint is interesting. You might have expected they would shift away from a single joint as it got harder to find large pieces of quality wood - but the single-joint basset is the later instrument.
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Author: SteveP
Date: 2015-05-27 02:38
John, we assume that it is later because we assume the numbers are "serial" numbers. If that is true then mine took twenty years to get to market, for instruments that were very low build rate and presumably only made in response to perceived demand.
Perhaps the numbers are not continuous as was suggested earlier.
Also, since my 330 bass was, as I recall, a '67 model, the composite lower joint was already a technique Leblanc used then, suggesting it was not a response to a perceived shortage in supply of long billets later in time.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-05-27 03:33
Given the theory that basset horns were renumbered at the end of the 80s, it seems that the two piece lower joint is a later construction. All one-piece lower joint horns I have found pictures for have had an old case and some of them are numbered above 10000, which the new series never reached. On the other hand, the 1982 instrument from the museum in La-Couture Boussey has a two-piece LJ.
I have played a 430S bass with serial 17.XXX (very late, probably built in the 2000s) with a one-piece LJ, but I have also seen pictures of 17.XXX 430s with a two-piece LJ.
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