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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-01-23 00:48
I discovered something that I didn't think applied to clarinet today. I'm a saxophonist on the side, and have jazz and classical mouthpieces for all of my horns. Those concepts of sound are totally different, so the different mouthpieces are deffinitly justified.
However, a few days ago I picked up a M15 Profile 88 Mouthpiece by Vandoren, as it was 20 bucks and I desperately needed a good backup piece. I was playing it side by side to my Clark Fobes Cicero 13, which I absolutely love. Doing this, I noticed something very interesting. The M15 was more covered, less brilliant, and a more dull sound, all qualities which the Fobes have (relatively speaking, of course). However, I immediately noticed the M15 would blend much more...easily into a section of clarientists, and the Fobes just felt suited to a solo/orchestra/small ensemble situation. I use the fobes in concert band, and struggle to blend it. The tone is controlled, but doesn't match my section of clarinets.
Do any of you have any opinions on this? I can blend the Fobes with effort, but some of the characteristic elements of that mouthpiece are lost, while the M15 is suited to sectional playing.
Is this something that is worth note, different mouthpieces? Shall we take a lesson from jazz players, or is it just another(sadly) flaw in my skills in tonal production, and have I purchased a mouthpiece above my skill level
Thanks!
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-01-23 00:59
Well look at Benny Goodman and Eddie Daniels. I'm pretty sure that Benny used the same mouthpiece for classical and jazz and fairly soft reeds. Last time I checked Eddie Daniels was playing Vandoren V-12 and Classic reeds #4 with 1.04mm opening mouthpiece(Eddie Daniels model by Zinner) for both classical and jazz playing. You might choose a little softer reed for jazz than you would for classical but it's all up to your playing. I play both jazz and classical with my 1.04 mm opening Gennusa Excellente mouthpiece and Glotin GIII #3.5 reeds. The only thing that I change is that I take a reed which is slightly softer in the 3.5 range and play with softer embouchure pressure.
I think playing with softer reeds maybe 1/2 strength and more relaxed embouchure is much better than changing mouthpieces.
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Author: swkeess
Date: 2009-01-23 01:14
I don't think that you've purchased a mouthpiece above your skill level, it's just that you are astute at perceiving the different sound characteristics between the two mouthpieces. For my Buffet bass clarinet I have two mouthpieces: a Grabner Personal for ensemble playing because it plays very well in tune with the other members of my small ensemble, and a Grabner early version of the Lawrie Bloom mouthpiece, which plays a little too sharp for my trio but is excellent for band as it can be blended into the larger ensemble with no problem and projects very well. Different mouthpieces for different situations - why not as long as you are happy with how it sounds and blends in with the different ensembles?
Susan Keess
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-01-23 01:25
You've both made valid points.
Some food for thought.
Would Marcellus, or any other great orchestral player, have blended into a section of say, 10-15 clarinets, or would he have to change his concept of sound to achieve this. When your part is doubled, what does that change?
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-23 02:42
Going from "classical" to jazz is a different set of problems from going from soloist or 1 on a part in an orchestra to playing in a concert band section. (By the way, for what it's worth, I don't think Goodman sounded at all comfortable when he played classical music, so if he actually was using the same equipment - I don't know if he did or not - it didn't work well, imo.)
You need to choose equipment that best lets you do what you need to do musically, that makes it easiest to produce the result you're looking and listening for. You've noticed a difference in the sound you produce on each of those mouthpieces. But think about more than just the tone you produce with whatever mouthpiece you consider. It also needs to respond, tune easily, etc... You should use the one that works better for you in the context in which you're playing it.
I'm not sure which mouthpiece you're worried is above your skill level, but both the M15 and the Fobes are very serviceable mouthpieces meant to make a high level of playing possible.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-23 03:30
Ryan K wrote:
<<Would Marcellus, or any other great orchestral player, have blended into a section of say, 10-15 clarinets, or would he have to change his concept of sound to achieve this. When your part is doubled, what does that change?>>
I'd say that being able to blend in well with the guy sitting next to you (as well as the other players around you--including other instruments--as appropriate) is a *prerequisite* to being a great orchestral player (or even just a good one).
But I'm going to go out on a limb and also say that I think 90% of that (or at least a good portion of it) is having a good ear for tuning and balance.
Mathematically speaking, if two players are playing in unison with good balance and perfectly in tune, the spectra of their tones will "average out," and you will "automatically" create a new timbre that is somewhere in between the tone qualities of the two players. That's because of the nature of the frequency spectrum of a periodic waveform and something called the "superposition principle" (which is a fancy way of saying that you can combine signals/sounds together mathematically by simply adding them together). You can "weight" this average one way or the other by changing the balance (relative volumes of the players). That's why I said that I think 90% of blending is about having a good ear for tuning and balance. (And my experience playing has led me to believe this as well--if the tuning and balance is right, it should not be hard to sound "blended").
One of my favorite examples of this principle is in Ravel's Bolero, where he combines flute (maybe it's flute and piccolo...can't remember), horn, and celesta together by having the instruments playing harmonically-related pitches (pitches from the harmonic series). If the balance is correct, it sounds like a completely new instrument, despite the fact that the individual timbres of the instruments are so different. The tight vocal blend of Crosby Stills and Nash is another good example.
Now just to be clear, just because you're playing perfectly in tune with good balance (so that your sounds "blend"), that still doesn't mean that the resulting blend will necessarily sound good. The individual players still have to make sounds that, when combined, "average out" to or at least complement each other to create something pleasing. But here still, I think the real "tonal concept" is (or at least ought to be) the combined sound, not the individual sounds. And in that case, I think it's still primarily about having a good ear.
Post Edited (2009-01-23 04:28)
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-01-23 07:39
I favour different mouthpieces for different situations, and different reeds ditto, and perhaps different ligatures ditto. But it is possible to take that idea too far. If you have a lot of playing then it is more feasible than if, like many amateurs, you have little time to play. With a good deal of time you can learn to adapt to different mouthpieces so you won't have a horrible accident on any one of them. With too little time, it is better to concentrate on one mouthpiece and play it safe.
Recently I performed a whole concert using an Alexander Superial reed, bar one movement, where an exposed passage sounded better on a Grand Concert reed. In theory I could have achieved something similar by changing mouthpieces. It is the same principle.
A benefit of more than one mouthpiece is that it reminds you to adopt good playing practices, as it is usually easy to change from one to the other if the playing funadmentals are correct. If you stick only to one mouthpiece then you can ingrain bad habits. A similar point arises on playing E flat or bass as well as B flat. Having to play these instruments within the same piece reinforces good technique, because bad technique will find you out in those cases.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-01-23 08:41
I have a couple of mouthpieces which sound superb in solo practice but which do not blend with the people I play with. Conversely, the ones that shine in ensemble tend to sound coarse in my little practice room.
I think there's an effect both of the ensemble and of the room acoustics here. In practice I now persevere with my 'ensemble' mouthpiece, as in the long run that's the one I'll have to play on stage.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-23 10:38
Ohhh...wait a minute! I think I know what you're talking about. For some reason it didn't quite dawn on me that we were talking about high school band. I had a similar problem when I was in high school band. My tone projects very well, which is a real plus in an orchestra, but can sometimes be a minus when you sit first chair in the high school band (especially since you have to play so much up high).
The problem with playing in a high school band is that bands use clarinets to take the place of the strings in an orchestra. Strings don't project all that well (even on really high notes)--relatively speaking--that's why you need so many of them in an orchestra. As an orchestral wind instrument, the clarinet is designed to be able to cut through all those strings--so, in a sense, a clarinet is an overkill substitute for a violin. Couple that with the fact that the strongest, most confident players in a school band usually play the highest notes (which project the best, anyway) and the weakest projecting low notes are often played by the most timid players in the section, and you have a recipe for balance problems.
In my case, it was very easy for me to overpower the section in high school, especially given that high school clarinet players are often predisposed to play somewhat timidly. And for the director, it was probably easier to try to get me to play more softly than it was to get the entire section to play out more. What I learned to do was to think of myself not so much as the main attraction of the clarinet section (which was easy to do sitting first chair), but as the icing on the cake--that extra little color on top. If I couldn't clearly hear all the other layers of the clarinet-section cake, I had to back off. Usually this meant playing everything about 1-2 notches lower on the dynamics scale from the written page (at least from my point of view). To make it easier to play at low dynamics, I used really responsive reeds (so that soft notes would speak). These days to accomplish this, I'd play on something like Grand Concert Select Evolutions, which have almost a hair-trigger response if you get a good one. If playing on a mouthpiece that projects less helps you do this, then by all means, I would use it.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-01-23 15:35
There was a point when I was playing both the Gigliotti P and the Backun C, but within a few months went exclusively to the Backun Mouthpiece. The Backun (of course) blended a lot better with Ricardo - Gigliotti sounded bright compared to it. I wouldn't have believed it on a bet till I heard the difference figuring that the Gigliotti was among the more dark mouthpieces out there. Not dark as in stuffy, or not being able to carry through Orchestra Hall, but dark and full as in "not bright".
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2009-01-23 17:11
I am also a fan of using different MP's for different types of playing. I have 3 mp's. 1 for orchestra, 1 for wind ensamble and 1 for everything else. I some times do change those aroud. But it does make a difference.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2009-01-23 17:14
Hello,
I use the same set-up for all types of playing. It's my opinion that regardless of the music you are playing, you should try to sound your very best and always strive for a great sound. With different types of music, of course, tone colorations are achieved by your embouchure and the way you blow your airstream. I can understand the same brand of mouthpiece with different tip openings (within a pretty narrow range) to achieve less or more projection, but think it would be confusing to switch brands between styles of music.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-01-23 19:14
This is all very interesting, especially the comments on blending. I'm glad this is a two sided issue, and I'm not just crazy.
My high school band is just as you describe. There is a large skill difference between the first clarinets, and the seconds, and even within the first section. I'll try thinking more like "icing" and see how that works.
There were some comments made on adapting embecure to sound more "dark" or blend more. Is this voicing, where pressure is applied, or what? (I bet I'm digging into a much bigger, more interesting, can of worms). I've never quite know how great players do this, and I'm sure it differs from person to person, style to style. I'm quite interested to hear what you all have to say. Is this in any common clarinet text book, and described well. I have "The Art of Clarinet Playing" but for some reason its descriptions just done click with me, outside of giving me a vague mental concept.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2009-01-23 22:38
Iceland, Marca reeds are like the Vandoren V12, but they go to strengths from 1.5 all the way up. Such reeds with such a thick body should be used on mouthpieces with a gradual facing instead of a severe facing curve like a Selmer C85 that has, nevertheless, a relatively closed 1.05mm facing. This particular Selmer can take a 1.5 strength reed and still get the high notes at least up to G. Well?
Ryan K, Blending with other instruments? The high notes sound dark on the clarinet which makes it fly above the other bright sounding instruments. Fix that with a softer reed on either a closed mpc with a severe curve or an open mpc with a gradual curve.
kdk, yes choose a reed mpc combination that helps you articulate better. Is not that a softer reed? Do auditions listen to blending or soloing?
mrn, Ravel's Bolero has that tiny Eb clarinet playing the solo that sounds dark and pretty good for that small instrument. You know how to "cut through" as you suggested. You were good to mention the large clarinet section in a band on the other hand.
graham. nobody is in to more than one mpc, ask redwine.
I am going to stay tuned and respond to youall about mpc and reed matters.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-01-24 00:01
Sorry Ken Mills but I didn't get your point at all. I play on Glotin GIII reeds and have tried Marca but found them of very poor quality.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-25 13:15
Sorry, but I disagree. There's far more than just articulation (by which I assume you mean "tonguing") involved in playing musically and the mouthpiece/reed combination affects the ease of accomplishing all of them. And there is a point of vanishing returns in going to softer reeds even for tonguing ease.
And I don't understand your point about auditions. Ryan originally asked whether or not different mouthpieces were appropriate for section and solo playing. He did not ask which it was more important to accommodate - he was interested in the best way to accommodate both.
Karl
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-01-25 16:43
Ken,
Your comments raise some questions for me. First, where do you draw the line between a "gradual" facing and a "severe" one? I can see that facings described by manufacturers as "short" would probably fall into the "severe" classification and those described as "long" would be "gradual" but in which classification would you put facings described as "medium"? (If you prefer to make the distinction in terms of millimeters or Brandt's facing numbers, I can interpret that.) Second, what is the theory behind your comment that thick reeds should be used on mouthpieces with a gradual curve but are inappropriate for mouthpieces with a severe one? When someone tells me I should do something, I like to understand the reason behind it.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-01-25 17:38
Using different mouthpieces sounds fine to me. Do what works in the situation. The test of time will resolve your questions. Out of curiosity did you ask the people you play with if they noticed any difference?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: William
Date: 2009-01-25 18:59
Hey guys, if I want to sound like Larry Combs, I use a LC #3. To switch to Eddie Daniels jazz sound, I just put on a.......well, you can guess the rest.
[huh???]
Post Edited (2009-01-25 20:07)
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-01-26 07:21
See p.141 of Brymer's "Clarinet" in which he says that, with the exercise of great care, more than one mouthpiece can be used for different situations. He does, however, imply that one mouthpiece can be made to cover most or all situations as well, so obviously it depends who you are and how you view things as to which path to take.
He also warns elsewhere of over relaince on what can be regarded as a "super mouthpiece".
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2009-01-29 23:00
kdk and Kissinger; I think that the gradual (long) curve of the mpc facing is more "reed friendly" than a "short" curve, and also that it is better for articulation (the polite term). But mouthpieces like the Selmer C85, a closed and short facing, have a special quality too; if you can find a good reed then you can play the altissimo with a soft reed to get "fat" high notes. However, Pete Fountain has a rapid vibrato which is not for me personally. But get his mpc whatever it is.
Iceland; Well then how do you like V-12 reeds? You mentioned softer reeds than those. So we have Marca reeds.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-01-30 00:03
Well I like the V-12 a bit but I stopped using them because I found them to be too varied within the strength and I also heard my friend players complain about the quality going down since they started to pack all the reeds in flow pack.
What I meant was that I would maybe use a little bit softer reed(not always) for jazz but the most important thing is how you use your embouchure and voice the notes.
Well I did less than a year ago test all the Marca range:Excel,Traditional,Superieure,FG Premium and Ponzol all #3 except Ponzols #3.5 based on a reed strength chart. Well The Traditional sounded like Vandoren #2 Excels and Superieure were fine but lasted very short time. FG Premium were great except they lasted even shorter and the Ponzol were like Vandoren #4.5
Then I looked again at the reeds and almost all of the cane were greenish or just Brown and in my book that counts for poor cane quality. Also the packing specially for Traditional and FG were very bad and I broke at least 2 reeds of both types when trying to open the clear plastic holder they were in.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2009-01-30 06:01
For what it's worth, I personally use an M15 in orchestral and solo settings and an M13 lyre in chamber settings.
I don't think that you should rely on the mouthpiece to give you a 'brighter' or 'darker' sound, your equipment doesn't make the player. At the same time, I think different mouthpieces can make it easier to do, and enhance, what you're doing. Certain mouthpieces are much brighter and easier to project with, while others offer a much darker, covered sound.
What I mean to say is, you should be able to change the colour of your sound on a single mouthpiece, after all, you need an entire palette of colours in a single piece, but using different mouthpieces for different settings can help you achieve the general colour you want. If I were playing the Mozart concerto, I'd probably be playing a different mouthpiece than if I were playing, say, Kovacs' Hommage a M. da Falla. At the same time, I know that I'd be able to play the Kovacs on the same mouthpiece as the Mozart, it would just be a little easier to get the sound I want on a different 'piece.
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2009-01-30 23:19
Iceland; I use the Marca "Pete Fountain" reed. He plays the 2.5 strength (which is not that soft), so I have that and the 2. Marca also has the SUPERIEURE which I like, but I need to compare them better to go ahead. I guess that Marca reeds are suited best for long mpc facings. If you want to play the high notes best with a soft reed then use a short facing, I think, and also use an R-13 clarinet. Also rapid articulation is important to me, but if you want to "hit" notes hard and fast then the alto sax is best and it has lots of power too. The trumpet is the king ("monarch" to avoid sexism) of solo instruments, but I can turn it up on my clarinet.
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