 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-01-01 20:24
I'd just like to say something about the 'New Year Resolution' thread started by Ed Palanker.
Though I initially decided to pass over it, I then saw Ed's post (almost immediately deleted) that finally made it clear to me that his main target was myself.
It is of course very strange behaviour to use the New Year Resolution mechanism, not in order to make a resolution oneself -- thereby indicating one's intention to do better in the future -- but rather, in order covertly to suggest that others, and someone else in particular, should adopt one's resolution; and moreover, in order to take the opportunity label that someone else's posts as 'nasty'.
That sort of behaviour is slimy, because it's an attack that isn't upfront. In my view, it's much worse behaviour than being direct with someone.
Ed is of course upset with me because I don't always find what he and others post to be responsible discourse, and then presume to say so. But for me, his trying to avoid criticism by saying "But, that's just what I think!" isn't good enough. You need to demonstrate that it is, in fact, responsible. And because Ed considers himself to be so eminent, he interprets that demand as 'lack of respect', or 'impoliteness'.
I have to say that whatever respect I might have had for Ed has been considerably diminished by this behaviour of his. And since that means that I am already more 'polite' to Ed than I consider he deserves, I couldn't now possibly adopt his 'resolution' myself -- especially as it applies to him.
I have to say, I don't think I am nasty here. Mostly, I try to help people. But when people who know diddley-squat get up on their pedestals, I reserve the right to say whatever I think is appropriate. Sometimes that's mild, sometimes not.
I have a different agenda here from some of you. I'm not that interested in people's opinions. And I don't regard much of what is considered 'mainstream' opinion about clarinet playing of much use, either. The habit of taking note of the received wisdom of legendary players, and passing it on willy-nilly, is much less valuable here than the habit of asking what makes sense in one's own experience, when striving toward clearly defined musical goals.
That means that the musical goals need to be well represented too, of course. In that regard, I don't hear Ed's constantly promoted Mozart clarinet quintet performance as even remotely representing the work, because the players in it have quite independent agendas -- mostly personal, instrumental ones -- that destroy what the piece is about.
So I've actually held back from making what is to me an obvious observation. But probably I shouldn't have.
Anyway, Happy New Year to anyone here who feels OK about hearing it from me. And if you don't, that's fine too.
Tony
Post Edited (2009-01-02 00:14)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-01 22:50
I'm sorry you feel this way about me Tony, I can assure you that you are not the only person that I, and apparently many others judging from some responses, feel the way I do. I would just simply like to see everyone treated with respect, even when you, or anyone else, doesn't agree with them. That goes for you, me and anyone else. It's too bad you have chosen to make this so personal towards me. I certainly don't believe my performance of the Mozart, live in a church, is by anyway, manner or form, the performance to measure all performances, it's simply an example of my playing and I'm proud of it. If I was recording it in a studio for commercial release I can assure you it would be considerably better. I know my faults, I know I'm far from perfect but I'm proud of my playing even if you find so much fault with it. Your opinion does not mean anything to me because I already know my short comings. I love the way I play though I know it can always be better. Why can't we all simply be polite to all of those that read and post on our clarinet BB. ,and that means you, me and all the others, is that really to much to ask? In any case just to make sure that we don't continue this public discourse I am making one on my resolutions not to read any of your posts, including your answer to this, and therefore certainly not answer you on anything. So as much as I respect many thing you say I think it's best to just ignore you in the future. I wish you the best and a very happy and successful new year. Good by Tony. ESP
PS. I'd like to thank all of those in support of me in the answers you wrote on some other posts on this BBoard as well as the supporting e-mails I've received.
(Notice, no mention of my Mozart this time)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-01-02 01:46)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-01-01 23:01
There's a difference between respectful, polite, and nice. I can be one or two and not the others quite easily.
I have to agree with Tony on this one, and I think that often the most respectful thing to do is to post an honest reply that is may be less than nice.
As for Ed, it seems that your resolution to be nice has already been broken.
I'm not encouraging people to be mean or rude or disrespectful just for the sake of it. However, in my experience, especially in music-related discussion, there can be a lot of good, honest, insightful discourse that is lost if everyone insists on being nice all the time.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: William
Date: 2009-01-01 23:10
For what it is worth, here is what my old university board of regents had to say about inquery and discussion:
"WHATEVER MAY BE THE LIMITATIONS WHICH TRAMMEL INQUIRY ELSEWHERE, WE BELIEVE THAT THE GREAT STATE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN SHOULD EVER ENCOURAGE THAT CONTINUAL AND FEARLESS SIFTING AND WINNOWING BY WHICH ALONE THE TRUTH CAN BE FOUND."
Lets all try to make 2009 a year of sharing and learning. Peace...........
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2009-01-01 23:22
As I wrote on Ed's post - I don't want Tony to play nice at all! Tony Pay is a world class clarinetist - his recordings with the Nash Ensemble are brilliant - every one of you should listen to them.
As a music student here in America, I came to realize very quickly that most professional musicians here are extremely polite, even when they hate each others' guts. There is a prissy arrogance to them that I just can't stand. They never make a frontal assault against another person - instead, they make little back-handed comments, death by 1000 cuts.
On the other hand, Tony is "real" - he has a lot to say, and he doesn't suffer fools gladly. I don't agree with 100 percent of what he believes, because honest people can disagree on some details without either necessarily being wrong. In some cases, what is true for you is not necessarily true for me. However, everything Tony posts I like to read and give my utmost consideration to, because I know a great musician is sharing with me what his years of experience have led him to conclude.
This is a message board, and everyone has an equal say. In fact, the webmaster and mods have a greater than equal say. But Tony truly is an elite musician, and everyone here should appreciate that he takes the time to come here and discuss issues of the clarinet, and this includes when you vehemently disagree with him or even when you are on the receiving end of one of his posts.
One of my favorite curmudgeons was Groucho Marx. He lost all of his money in the stock market crash of 1929 and became an insomniac for the rest of his life. For amusement, he would randomly call people in the middle of the night and insult them. I hate when people wake me up in the middle of the night, but I would pay good money to get that phone call. You little clarinet geeks should feel the same way when Tony takes the time to skewer you. It's an honor.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2009-01-01 23:52
How refreshing it is to meet people who are nice to your face even if they don't like you, the whole time thinking inside themselves how they need to learn more patience and forebearance. We cannot be so arrogant as to think that we hold the copyright on the "correct" point of view. If we try, our patience can grow enormously with age and we become better people for it.
Honest concern for others can include a generous allowance of hearing other's points of views, realizing that just because we allow them an audience we still retain the choice to agree or disagree with them. Three things happen: 1)We can simply enjoy a laugh or an interesting conversation and then let it go, 2) We can understand that even though the person has lots to learn and obviously knows less than we do, his opinion is based on his understanding at this point in time and he will continue to learn in the future, 3) We may actually learn something we didn't realize, even from someone younger or less experienced than ourselves.
Having such a point of view when listening to or reading notes from others can create a healthy environment where people feel safe to exchange information. We all started at ZERO and worked our way up, after all! History shows that human society benefits by to be able to experience forbearance of opposite opinions without arguing or disposing of each other. Not even behind their backs! That's so disgraceful.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-01-01 23:53
JessKateDD wrote:
> You little clarinet geeks should feel the same way when Tony takes
> the time to skewer you. It's an honor.
This is exactly the kind of comment, that irks me. There is no honor in being skewered by anyone because they are reputedly someone.
There is value in a comment, however polite or impolite it is, if it brings a piece of knowledge that is worth reading.
It's exactly like playing at a masterclass of someone famous to put it on one's resume. Doesn't matter whether anything was learned, as long as one can say one was there one feels good about oneself...
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-01-02 00:05
"You little clarinet geeks should feel the same way when Tony takes the time to skewer you. It's an honor."
Another great year starts out on a high note. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
There is a place for civil discussion and disagreement, and there is a place beyond that where people insult one another for no really good reason. I admit I have done that in the past, but I will attempt not to do it from now on, as Ed suggested in his other thread.
Happy new year, all.
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2009-01-02 00:17
> You little clarinet geeks should feel the same way when Tony takes
> the time to skewer you. It's an honor.
[spoken with much sarcasm] Yes. I should feel honored to be 'skewered' just because I don't know something.
I don't think so. That won't fly with me, sorry. I'm more than happy to learn, and I think we should be told when we are wrong, but in a more respectful manner. I believe that is what Ed P. is trying to tell us here.
I've said all I want and need to say here.
Happy New Years to ALL of you no matter our opinions.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-01-02 00:29
Ryder wrote:
> > You little clarinet geeks should feel the same way when Tony
> takes
> > the time to skewer you. It's an honor.
>
> [spoken with much sarcasm] Yes. I should feel honored to be
> 'skewered' just because I don't know something.
>
> I don't think so. That won't fly with me, sorry. I'm more than
> happy to learn, and I think we should be told when we are
> wrong, but in a more respectful manner. I believe that is what
> Ed P. is trying to tell us here.
>
> I've said all I want and need to say here.
You're responding to a throw-off phrase from someone who is supporting me in this debate.
Do I 'skewer' people?
Really???
I don't think so. Read the posts, please.
Tony
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-01-02 00:44
Even this, to be blunt, flat out verbal brawl is insightful. Right now there are no veils on this conversation, no stoppers on how we all feel and share knowledge. If discussion like this always occurred, I think we would grow more as clarinetists, and as people.
I believe the phrase to quote is "The School of Hard Knocks".
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-01-02 00:59
Tony,
I can only speak for myself, but what annoys me is the sort of blind worshiping one gets after reaching a certain status.
There are too many famous, possibly talented, musicians who are also absolutely horrible teachers. They preach instead of teach and talk to us about THE method of playing whatever "THE" is.
I find your posts illuminating because they present ideas and facts that are often thought provoking but always well presented and argued.
When you speak of music I put a lot of trust in what you say not only because you are an internationally renown musician, but mostly because you have showed us countless times that the information you give is trustworthy, often verifiable.
So I read your post with less skepticism than I read most others on this board, but if you start talking wrongly about things I know more about than you do, I won't hesitate to correct you. I doubt this will ever happen though.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-01-02 01:38
I see it as everyone here has feelings.
Having respect for that regardless of their stature musically is a good thing.
I enjoy Tony's contributions, and Ed's as well.
It's unfortunate when you guys fight.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2009-01-02 03:27
I love Tony's posts, I wish I had the "testicular fortitude" to point out the blatant B.S and non truths that make it on this board. My New Year's resolution will be to attempt to be as articulate in writing as Tony is in his posts. Enough of my own BS.
I have a technical question for Tony: When you play various "period" and modern clarinets, do you have mouthpiece and reed combos that are in line with the clarinet you are playing, i.e.. German type facing when playing ohler,albert ect? or have come up with multi purpose type of set up that you adapt to all the different types of clarinets?
If they are different, how would you describe the playing differences?
Thanks Tom Puwalski
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Author: DaveF
Date: 2009-01-02 06:08
I personally look forward to posts and responses from these two men who I have great respect for. I've learned greatly from each.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-02 07:12
Ed wrote:
<<I'm sorry you feel this way about me Tony, I can assure you that you are not the only person that I, and apparently many others judging from some responses, feel the way I do.>>
Wait a minute...just because I (and some other people, too) expressed my intent to be more polite in *my* posts (I've made a few where I've regretted saying what I did), that doesn't mean I think negatively of Tony's posts (or anyone else's, in particular)!
On the contrary, I love reading Tony's posts, because he dispenses with useless hagiography and focuses in on what really matters here--music and music-making. And he does so with a critical eye/ear, which is not only a good thing from the standpoint of reliability (you can be confident that what Tony writes is reliable), but also from the standpoint of making the rest of us sharper musical thinkers and listeners (and by extension, better players). I, for one, feel that I have learned a tremendous amount from reading his posts (and from thinking about them offline--some of my favorites are a bit like Zen koans--cryptic at first, but highly enlightening upon meditation!).
Tony wrote:
<<Anyway, Happy New Year to anyone here who feels OK about hearing it from me.>>
Happy New Year to you, too.
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Author: hans
Date: 2009-01-02 14:54
I see that Tony Pay has taken exception to something Ed Palanker wrote (I didn't see it) and decided to try to punish Ed.
I'm in my 50th year of playing clarinet and I've enjoyed the clarinet BB for a number of years, but find that Pay and his ilk increasingly try to impose their arbitrary standards on other members, who range from beginners to very highly qualified professionals. They seem to be succeeding, unfortunately, and apparently enjoying the conflict. It's my view that being good at one thing doesn't make Pay and his friends in any way superior to others, or always right about everything. It has finally become too boring for me and I no longer want to read more of Pay's bubulum stercus. Pay and his retinue of ass kissers tend to be disrespectful of others to the point of being insulting, which has made me decide to end my membership in the BB.
Regrets and thank you to Mark C. and GBK - you have done a great service to the world's clarinet playing community and I appreciate everything I have received as a result of that.
Hans
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Author: William
Date: 2009-01-02 16:06
I'm on Ed P's side of this ongoing 'discussion', but nevertheless, why can't we just all agree to disagree and get back to clarinet issues? Everyones voice is important, even the least experianced among us, so lets all simply resolve to resume sharing & learning from each other, and as a result, make 2009 a better "clarinetting" year--even if you are like me and already know it all (LOL).
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-02 21:52
hans wrote:
> but find that Pay and his
> ilk increasingly try to impose their arbitrary standards on
> other members, who range from beginners to very highly
> qualified professionals.
You know, I've never quite seen that. What I have seen is people having to confront their "sacred cows" and make sense of what they think they know. Standards, yes - arbitrary, no.
No one forces anyone to read and/or reply to posts, but, if you do want to get into any "real" discussion or debate, then I think some preparation would be in order.
Most of our discussions here are rather simplistic - but nonetheless helpful I think. It's the ones that have to do with the "nature of things" (music!) that can become contentions. As I think it should be.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-03 00:10
Mark wrote:
<<....It's the ones that have to do with the "nature of things" (music!) that can become contentions. As I think it should be.>>
Well put! You can't have "critical thinking" without having room for criticism.
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Author: smoreno
Date: 2009-01-03 03:21
From a student's point of view, I will just say that many clarinetists have such extreme high respect and regard for both of these fine musicians, in playing and teaching.
Many of both of your past, future, and current students read this board and I'm sorry to say, this particular thread is being spoken of rather widely.
We have such great respect for both of you and simply wish for a healthy atmosphere, possibly without this very public discourse.
Happy New Years to you both, and I enjoy the insightful things you have to say!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-01-03 07:53
smoreno (sorry, don't know your real name) wrote:
>> Many of both of your past, future, and current students read this board and I'm sorry to say, this particular thread is being spoken of rather widely.>>
Why are you sorry to say that? Is it a bad thing that it's being spoken of?
Somebody said, why can't we get back to talking about the clarinet? But of course you can; and in other threads, people are.
One thing I learnt whilst playing chamber music -- and it took me a long time to learn it -- is that shutting down even a seemingly irrelevant musical discussion has undesirable consequences, because it leaves someone incomplete. And that's even including the fact that rehearsal time is inevitably limited.
Here, on the other hand, you can read, and even join in, another thread.
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-03 15:09
Dear smoreno, I read your post above but had to ovoid Tony's response because I promised I would not read or respond to him on this or any other matter so I don't know what he said to you. I just want to say that you are so correct in your judgment in what you said. It's never been about context, it's only been about respect for others. That's the only point I've tried to make. Thank you, ESP
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Author: William
Date: 2009-01-03 15:31
"Somebody said, why can't we get back to talking about the clarinet? But of course you can; and in other threads, people are"
Well, Tony, I am the "somebody" that made that comment. What I should have said was, threads like this one have little value on this BB and should not be allowed by the moderators. We are not allowed to discuss politics or promote our own personal interests (concerts, publications, etc), why should we be allowed to post veiled character attacks on each other that require retaliatory postings and etc, etc, etc. No musical good can benefit our clarinet community from all this petty bickering. What I would really like to see is a "THIS THREAD IS CLOSED". Lets get back to discussions that you are so good at--clarinet pedagogy--and leave the animosities behind. And for auld lange synne, Happy New Year.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2009-01-03 16:31
I'm new to this discussion forum, and I'm not sure if I've read all the posts that are relevant to this thread.
However, I'd like to offer an observation from my day job, which often involves both giving and receiving peer review for academic journals. In their guidelines for reviewers, many journals now include an instruction for reviewers to avoid using an aggressive or confrontational tone in their criticism of a paper. The reason is not so much that we'd like people always to be "polite" or "nice" to each other, but rather that being confrontational or aggressive is nearly always counter productive. I don't think I've ever seen a case where a confrontational review has resulted in a better paper, or where criticism has lost effectiveness by being non-confrontational in tone. Usually confrontational behaviour simply results in bad feeling on the part of the person at the receiving end---he or she perceives it as being a personal attack, and probably becomes more likely to act in a similar way him/herself. More importantly, it doesn't result in better science.
My suspicion is that the situation is similar in many ways on an internet discussion forum like this one. Personally I doubt whether adopting a confrontational attitude will achieve anything constructive, or lead to more enlightening discussions about music or the clarinet. However, I might be wrong. Perhaps somebody posting inaccurate information will be less likely to do so in the future if he/she receives a confrontational response. Maybe a confrontational attitude will draw more people into a discussion, leading to more insight about music, though I personally doubt both of these. So, my suggestion for a new year's resolution would be for people to pause before hitting the "post" button. Ask yourself whether your post will lead to bad feeling on the part of anybody who reads it. If the answer is "yes", ask yourself whether the resulting bad feeling is really necessary for the post to make the required contribution to the bulletin board. If you honestly think that it is necessary to be confrontational, then go ahead and click the send button, but if you can still achieve the same contribution without being confrontational, then edit the post as appropriate.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-03 16:43
ebonite wrote:
>...
Nice. I like that.
In my "day job" as a system analyst (IT, large-scale complex systems) we end up with both confrontational and non-confrontational discussions. Both are normally healthy - as long as you're intellectually honest & up-front.
Some days are easy, some days aren't.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-01-03 16:44
William wrote:
>> No musical good can benefit our clarinet community from all this petty bickering. What I would really like to see is a "THIS THREAD IS CLOSED". Lets get back to discussions that you are so good at--clarinet pedagogy--and leave the animosities behind.>>
Well, William, here's the thing.
What happens when people discuss matters like pedagogy is that disagreements arise. Sometimes those disagreements are trivial; but sometimes they're not, and are deeply rooted in different ways of construing both the physical world and the world of music itself. Even definite physical facts come into it. In my view, sorting out and clarifying those things is an important task; and it's therefore important also to clarify when the principles that underly that task -- basically, the principles of rational enquiry -- are being undermined, overtly or covertly.
I'm happy of course that you think I sometimes have something worth while to say about the clarinet. But I'm not happy that you think that means you can order me about, and tell me what I can and can't say here -- tell me, in fact, that I should say only down-to-earth stuff that YOU might think interesting or useful -- as though I'm to be tolerated only if I behave like your pet clarinet consultant or something.
You call it 'petty bickering'; but it isn't. I'm trying to establish a proper community of enquiry here -- one that serious people of all levels can take seriously. Your high-handed judgement is damaging to that endeavour.
You say, "Let's get back to..."
I say, "Let's YOU get back to that."
I'm happy to abide by the decisions of the moderators. What you say I should or shouldn't do -- based, notice, on nothing more fundamental than your own personal boredom, your own personal irritation and your own personal inability to switch to another thread -- cuts no ice with me.
Tony
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Author: duxburyclarinetguy
Date: 2009-01-03 17:17
I have to say this whole thread seems very "personal" versus "professional". In my humble opinion, people can and should sometimes disagree without being disagreeable, truly an art form however. I know in my own experience having studied five years with Harold Wright, he was always cognizant of the other major players' differences from his playing. I never heard him speak ill of any other professional player, nonetheless he would state his case emphatically as to why he played a phrase a certain way or why he preferred his equipment to others then currently in use. Anyone listening to him playing would have been convinced of the efficacy of his choices, just as they would have been if it had been Robert Marcellus, Jack Brymer or Stanley Hasty playing instead.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-01-03 18:41
Rick wrote:
>> I know in my own experience having studied five years with Harold Wright, he was always cognizant of the other major players' differences from his playing. I never heard him speak ill of any other professional player, nonetheless he would state his case emphatically as to why he played a phrase a certain way or why he preferred his equipment to others then currently in use.>>
Yes, and I do the same, for the most part.
As I have often explained in the past, what happens in LESSONS can be very different from what has to happen here. HERE, we need to deal with what can be said to an arbitrary reader, and in the more or less complete exposition of that.
Whereas, a teacher who can hear you play is responding in real time to YOUR problems, and can adopt varying tactics to lead you to a better playing experience. They can leave out a whole raft of qualifications because they can hear that you have no need of them.
But if someone here says, "you have to do such-and-such," or "such-and-such is so," they are on a stickier wicket, because the player might NOT have to, and the such-and-such might NOT be so.
The fact that the such-and-such works FOR THE POSTER is only one part of the picture. And many people don't even understand that they are posting what applies to them, and may even apply ONLY to them -- or to the small number of people who resemble them sufficiently. (It may also apply only to the contexts that they can imagine; but not to wider musical contexts, which it may be necessary for the reader to understand.)
When people deny these facts, and GO ON denying them, some sort of confrontation is inevitable.
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-03 23:48
William said the following and I totally agree with him. It's time to move on. ESP
Well, Tony, I am the "somebody" that made that comment. What I should have said was, threads like this one have little value on this BB and should not be allowed by the moderators. We are not allowed to discuss politics or promote our own personal interests (concerts, publications, etc), why should we be allowed to post veiled character attacks on each other that require retaliatory postings and etc, etc, etc. No musical good can benefit our clarinet community from all this petty bickering. What I would really like to see is a "THIS THREAD IS CLOSED". Lets get back to discussions that you are so good at--clarinet pedagogy--and leave the animosities behind. And for auld lange synne, Happy New Year.
Bravo William!
PS. As promised, I have not been reading Tony's posts so I do not know what he has been saying about this or anything else. I promised him and Mark that I would no longer read them so I'm keeping my promise.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2009-01-04 00:16
My take on this thread as an issue is that it has to do with how to give and take criticism. The two principal players (no pun intended) do not take criticism well. However, I agree with many points that each side takes. My own view, as a person who taught performance arts for 37 years, is that people do not like to be criticized. We all want constructive criticism, but are more interested in praise. I think it’s human nature, especially for people who have invested their heart and soul and analytic ability into their creative endeavors.
As I take it, the fundamental issue here is that Tony Pay would like to make the clarinet board a scholarly enterprise. As a fellow seeker of the truth I have no qualms with this. Mr. Palanker would like to keep the criticism civil, thus keeping it to a level accepting of all interests. I have no problem with this either.
My problem comes when each one thinks that their method is the one to be followed. Each side made excellent points, each side’s position should be considered. The truth lies outside of their agendas.
Nonetheless, thanks to all for your thought provoking ideas. Also, I listened to online recordings of both clarinetist and found each, in their own way, to play quite beautifully.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-01-04 00:29
ebonite wrote:Quote:
The reason is not so much that we'd like people always to be "polite" or "nice" to each other, but rather that being confrontational or aggressive is nearly always counter productive.
Full ACK. And we shouldn't forget that the written communication in a forum lacks an important dimension, and sometimes there isn't even enough whitespace on the screen to read between the lines.
And if we don't manage to get along in here, how can we honestly expect the same of political opponents where much more is at stake than a skewed embouchure or a misinterpreted phrase in Vandorius' Minoan Symphony?
--
Ben
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-04 00:52
FDF said, Also, I listened to online recordings of both clarinetist and found each, in their own way, to play quite beautifully." Thank you!
I agree with your other thoughts and comments as well. Thank you, ESP
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-01-04 00:55
Well said, FDF and tictactux...
I don't know if I somehow skipped or skimmed the offending posts (tl;dr kicks in really fast for me), or if I just didn't find any offensive, but I really never noticed much of the rudeness or disrespect that these threads are all about.
Then again, I frequent boards and mailing lists of highly variable quality and taste. I've found this to be one of the most civil, professional online boards I've ever come across. I've been *dying* to post some extremely apropos yet possibly distasteful images to this thread, but would never actually go through with it. I wouldn't give a second thought to posting them on just about any other board, and most people would probably get a good laugh out of them, but they just don't match the level of discourse that we share here.
As a musician, it really can behoove you to have at least a bit of a thick skin. Lots of criticism can hurt if you take it personally, but the vast majority of it is not meant as a personal attack. I've found that, aside from purely mean comments along the lines of "you're a loser who will never amount to anything," the criticism that seems most harsh is often that which is most honest and, by far, most valuable. If fifty people love (or claim to love) the concerto I just wrote, and one openly dislikes it, I'm much more inclined to want to follow up on the one who doesn't care for it. I can figure out what I did right much more easily than what I did wrong.
If we're not critical of music, it can stagnate very easily. "But he's trying very hard" can become indistinguishable from "He did a great job playing that," and that's doubly hard to distinguish on a board. I can't count how many times I've been to concerts where a significant portion of the audience applauded because they like the performers and not the performance. In real life, we can use almost infinite nuance, saying "Oh, that was great" while shrugging slightly so the person knows we thought it was just so-so but we aren't outwardly bitter, and we can even pretend to be completely honest and have our body language betray us.
Since we can lose so much in the written word (not to mention dialect and local expressions, and translations between different languages), I take everything with a grain of salt. I always give people the benefit of the doubt, and in exchange I tend to be a bit looser with words. But I also make a point to reread things, especially on this board, before I post them. For every opinionated post I make on this board, there's another where I think better of it and don't hit the Post button. And, quite often, within a half hour someone else has said it for me, worded better than I had set it out.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-04 01:26
Attachment: DSC_0851.JPG (97k)
EEBaum wrote:
>
> I've been *dying* to post some extremely apropos yet possibly
> distasteful images to this thread, but would never actually go
> through with it.
Here's one ...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-04 01:33
EEBaum said the following,
'I don't know if I somehow skipped or skimmed the offending posts (tl;dr kicks in really fast for me), or if I just didn't find any offensive, but I really never noticed much of the rudeness or disrespect that these threads are all about.
Then again, I frequent boards and mailing lists of highly variable quality and taste. I've found this to be one of the most civil, professional online boards I've ever come across.'
I haven't read other bboards so I can't speak from experience so I can only comment from what I've read on our bboard in the past. It is true that mostly we are polite to others, certainly I try to be and I often try to include a little humor in my posts. Life is to short to be serious about everything all the time. But it has been said a few times here that we are the laughing stock of some of the other posts the way we sometimes answer other, sax and oboe especially. I certainly hope that it is not true but it has been written right here on our dear clarinet bboard. ESP
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-01-04 02:14
I read this, and it evokes in my head the image of a debate over what conduct is chivalrous, and what isn't.
It is true, that this board, on others(SOTW), is noted as one where you can easily get torn appart for saying something ignorant. That is not to say, however, that I have ever seen a new player get torn appart, or a good questions answered with anger.
I think it holds the posts here to a much higher standard of preparation, relevancy, and general quality.
The level, and type of criticism, that comes with that is not something you can simply change. The personalties that gravitate to this specific boar will always act as they want to, until a moderator forces them not to.
If you are so offended, you either have a serious problem that can obviously be addressed with a moderator, or you have set your self up for it in my opinion.
Disclaimer: I am a fan of harsh criticism, and prefer it to be used on me.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: idahofats
Date: 2009-01-04 04:46
Consider me an impartial bystander who thinks he sees humor in this situation, although I'd rather no one's feelings had been hurt---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno
I'm not saying who's Arthur and who's the Black Knight, but the conflict has been the stuff of legend...
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-04 07:06
Get ready. Here comes another one of my long, philosophical posts...
I think the biggest problem we have on this BBoard is not lack of politeness (although I won't say that's not a problem from time to time). Rather, it's the fact that many of us are quick to take others' comments, especially those of a critical nature, personally. I think we would all do well to try to read comments with which we disagree or that are critical of us or our ideas/beliefs in the best possible light and assume that the writer has good intentions whenever possible. It is far, far too easy to read well-meaning comments as personal attacks.
I think that's especially true when the person making the comments (or questions, as they may be) is someone of such high stature in the musical community as Tony. What I mean by that is that when Tony asks a challenging question or makes a statement that challenges our perceptions, it is too easy for us "mere mortals" to interpret such remarks as a put down--picking on, or "skewering," the defenseless little guy, so to speak.
Yet, I don't think that's what he does at all. I think he asks challenging questions and makes challenging statements EXPECTING you not only not to take offense, but to feel INVITED to give a reasoned argument in reply (whether it turns out to be a refutable argument in the end or not). That's what law professors do (at least here in the U.S., where they often teach with the Socratic Method--at the "Oxbridge" Universities, I understand they use a similar approach in their "tutorials/supervisions"). And in law school (as in a lot of things in life), 9 times out of 10 there is no "right" answer to any given question--the main goal is to make an argument for or against a position or to clarify your position. It may look adversarial on the surface, but in the end, the ultimate goal is reasoned discourse and greater understanding, and the participants remain, in reality, friends/allies the whole time.
The vast majority of the time when things start to look ugly on this board, it's because someone took offense to something that was never intended to offend. Moral: Always try to assume the person writing has good intentions before concluding otherwise.
The second biggest problem we have (and it's a close second), IMHO, is that many of us cling so hard to the received wisdom of others that it becomes dogma. So when someone questions that wisdom or presents a point of view that tends to invalidate the assumptions underlying such dogma, the person on the receiving end of that discourse feels violated. If Bonade, let's say, said "you must do it this way." And somebody not part of the Bonade tradition like Tony comes along and says, "no you don't because I don't, so Bonade was wrong," there are going to be some people who are offended by it, and there really shouldn't be. I mean, if you can do something in a different way than Bonade and play like Tony, that in fact does prove that you don't HAVE TO do something the way Bonade said, even if what Bonade taught was good advice in the context Bonade taught it--it's the "you must" part that's wrong, not necessarily the rest of it. And, of course, on a message board, there's virtually no context to anything (unlike in a private teaching setting), so it's even more important not to make absolute prescriptive pronouncements in this setting--they may actually be bad advice, given the actual context, for all you know.
Further, conventional wisdom oftentimes ends up being wrong at the end of the day, so I think questioning the conventional wisdom, as Tony often does here, is a good thing. I also think that his admonition to resist the temptation to give overly specific and prescriptive advice in this "low context" environment is also well worth heeding.
But it would be wrong of me not to give Ed credit in this department, as well. One of the things that I have seen/heard him place great value on time and time again is the importance of individualized experimentation to determine what works for a particular student. As I understand it, Ed's teaching philosophy is not the same sort of prescriptive approach that many other teachers espouse--in fact, that's one of the things I like about reading Ed's posts.
Because of this, I suspect that whatever philosophical differences he and Tony have may not be as great in reality as they might appear. The problem is that the discussion of those differences (or lack thereof, as the case may be) always seems to end before it begins, which leaves everyone feeling uneasy or sore and simply leads to further misunderstanding.
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Author: smoreno
Date: 2009-01-04 07:55
Tony said :
One thing I learnt whilst playing chamber music -- and it took me a long time to learn it -- is that shutting down even a seemingly irrelevant musical discussion has undesirable consequences, because it leaves someone incomplete. And that's even including the fact that rehearsal time is inevitably limited.
Here, on the other hand, you can read, and even join in, another thread."
I wasn't saying that you guys should STOP talking about this, not at all. I enjoy anything I read on this board, especially from such great musicians as yourselves. I was just letting you know that quite a few students, past future and present, of yours read this board and perhaps it may bode well to keep that in mind when writing certain things. As what you say does hold extreme value (whether that be positive or negative) in the eye of your students.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-04 15:29
smoreno, you are a very intelligent and acute young student. You are so correct in your observations. That is why I also agree with William, in his post above, calling for this to be closed. It never should have remained opened so long.
I've received e-mails with questions from people that say they can't ask on the bb for fear of being intimidated or humiliated as they've seen happen to some others. This should simply never happen on such a valuable and interesting medium such as our clarinet bboard.
Thank you smoreno, William, FDF, and the many others for their supporting comments, that includes those that have e-mailed me as well. ESP
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Author: William
Date: 2009-01-04 16:55
Some time ago, Mark asked us to use direct emailings to address personal issues, questions and other private business rather than post on the BB for all to suffer. As this entire thread seems to be mostly regarding a conflict between Ed P and Tony P--both eminent and valued regular contributors from which we all have much to learn--I believe that, in accordance with that older rule, it should have been closed long ago and that its seemingly endless continuation is of no musical or informational value to the rest of us. Perhaps all that we can do to bring closure here is to simply ignore further postings and eventually let its position on the BB expire to the "older topic" category--ergo, "out of sight, out of mind".
[this will be my final posting to this thread--it was really never about me anyhow]
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-04 18:22
William, I totally agree, I've been suggesting that, along with some others, for a few days now. Just for the record, I don't have really a problem with Tony Pay. I made a statement about respect, it was quickly taken off the posting that someone else mentioned his name in, I never actually did mention anyone by name because I felt it applied to several people, not just him. After I realized the managers of the bb deleted the post I thought that would be the end of it.
Yes, you are correct, take this whole post and but it to bed. Let's begin over and hopefully learn from it, I certainly have. ESP
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-04 18:28
This HASN'T been closed because it has not been exclusive to the two people involved, but has been a (I think) interesting discussion between a group of people. I find it interesting that the person who is asking that the thread be closed (a job for the two moderators) is not the one who started this particular thread, but in fact, keeps posting to it and brings it back up to the top. If people stop posting here, it will naturally fall down to the next page and out of sight.
I'm not really concerned about who agrees with whom - there's room enough on this BBoard for different styles, and I'm not about to impose one.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-04 18:31
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Mark, that's your VW if I recall?
Yup- "snowed under" in Canandaigua ...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-04 18:43
Mark, it's the contents of my posts not the numbers that I considered important. I've just been agreeing with many others about shutting it down but on your recommendation this will be it. I will not continue to reply to thank those in agreement with me. No one is learning or gaining anything from this any more and I've made my point. Respectfully, Ed Palanker
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-01-04 19:58)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-01-04 18:48
Attachment: invalid.jpg (89k)
Mark wrote:
> Here's one ...
Oh, what the hey. Here's one I like (this is one of the clean and friendly ones).
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-01-04 18:50
My image notwithstanding, I think a lot has been learned and gained by this thread.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Sambo 933
Date: 2009-01-04 21:28
conflicting opinion's cannot be avoided.
there are many experienced musicians on this BB that have a lot of valuable information and I thank them for spending the time to help other people solve their problems.
I have no problem be corrected when I'm wrong by someone who isn't talking down to me like a snob.(please excuse my blunt terminology)
I think it is also sometimes forgotten that argument isn't a sure sign of disrespect. I believe that people get offended because of their egos.
I merely stating my opinion because I know that as great a resource as this BB is, it could be better if it lacked arrogance.
Let it be known that I am not accusing any particular person on this BB of being a snob, arrogant, or an arrogant snob.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-01-05 13:50
Not sure where other people get their ideas about the normal level of discourse on the Internet, but it seems to me that the discussions here look comparatively gracious. Given that we don't have a problem with raw, nude bleepery, death threats, etc., I'm glad to see Mark resist instituting picky little civility rules. (I mean, please -- we're all reed players. You know the old joke: How many clarinet players does it take to screw in a light bulb? Only one, but s/he'll have to go through 148 boxes of bulbs to find exactly the right one. Give us little rules and we'll happily bog down in the minutiae of interpreting the little rules.) Let's not get hypersensitive.
I learn more from an honest argument than I do from people pussyfooting around. (Where'd that trite term come from, anyway? I've never seen cats pussyfoot. They're a lot ruder than anybody's ever been here on Klarinet.) Another reason for bluntness is that plain English is easier to understand and less easy to misinterpret. This is an international community with many participants whose native language is not English. Those of us who do speak English as our native language come from several different countries where we speak regional variants. I'm often not sure whether someone means a comment seriously. For instance:
>> You little clarinet geeks should feel the same way when Tony
>> takes the time to skewer you. It's an honor.
>>
I read that remark as a humorous way to make a serious point (not really dismissing us as pathetic "little clarinet geeks," but observing that we're lucky to be able to get advice and information from a world-class musician), yet some here have taken it completely seriously. But, if what Tony does is "skewering," I say we might as well take advantage of it, on grounds that we should heal up pretty fast and, "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger."
I'll never forget how proud I was at the age of nine or so, when my paternal grandmother, Ethel Loban, took the time to read and then skewer a short story I'd written. (Among other things, she taught me that word "trite" I used earlier.) My mother, overhearing, waxed horrified, upset, indignant, protective -- and I had the hardest time trying to explain to her that my grandmother, a successful, published writer (short stories in The Saturday Evening Post and other major magazines; Doubleday Crime Club murder mysteries in the 1920s and 1930s), had done me an enormous favor by giving me blunt, serious, useful criticism instead of patronizing me with the usual, "Oh, aren't you clever to write a little story -- what a precocious little girl" crappola.
As a veteran of my father's fondness for Socratic dialogue around the dinner table, I argued with my grandmother about some of her criticisms. She demolished me. No doubt in my mind: I broke into print at age twelve because she respected me enough to refuse to pat me on the head and let me win.
One of the many things I learned from these conversations with my grandmother: When an expert speaks, argue, of course, but above all, listen and be grateful. That's not toadying. It's not worship. It's self-interest and common sense.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-01-05 15:40
I kind of like a churning thread like this one. At least Tony has got Ed to stop telling us to listen to more Mozart. Ed, we all listen to plenty of Mozart.
I never heard of Tony until this BB, so I, not too long ago bought his CD of Weber-Crusell concertos etc. to check him out. In my day I've heard many soloists who directed their own accompaniment. The ensemble has always suffered for it. Next time Tony, get a conductor!
Tony's clarinet playing ranks amongst the best. Of all the active clarinet soloists I can never decide who stands out.
Opinions vary but civility should alway reign.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-01-06 18:24
I must say that I am amazed by the vitriol evident in Mr Pay’s post. I wonder what was in that alleged post “quickly deleted” that none of the rest of us saw...... I saw nothing in Ed’s “Resolutions” post that I took to be directed against anyone in particular. To be honest I thought he might have meant me! However I guess I’m not as paranoid as Mr. Pay. Certainly Ed wrote nothing to justify this comment.:
<<...”That sort of behaviour is slimy, because it's an attack that isn't upfront. In my view, it's much worse behaviour than being direct with someone”.>>
“Slimy” sounds like fighting talk to me. Why?
.....and later in his post:
<<....That means that the musical goals need to be well represented too, of course. In that regard, I don't hear Ed's constantly promoted Mozart clarinet quintet performance as even remotely representing the work, because the players in it have quite independent agendas -- mostly personal, instrumental ones -- that destroy what the piece is about>>
Since, as we know, Mr Pay never posts an opinion (he doesn’t agree with opinion and never gives one himself), only defensible hard fact, we must accept this condemnation of Ed’s work as the final and only valid judgment. Nevertheless it seems a trifle harsh coming from someone who often tells us to do what makes musical sense to us and not to slavishly copy what has been done before.
Also shame on Ed for his “constant promotion” of his performance, although I confess to not having seen it much promoted at all - maybe I’m just not looking in the right places. How different from Mr Pay’s own references to pieces he has written in the Cambridge Clarinet companion and other places.....which are only mentioned for our edification after all!
This animus towards Ed seems to have built up over the last few months, becoming more and more pointed until these most recent comments. I wonder why. Anyway to have one professional insulting another in such a blatant way is surprising to me. I am left to wonder if Mr Pay is a true english gentleman i.e. one who only ever gives offence intentionally, or if he is an idiot savant with a single area of genius who is totally lacking in social graces. Such a pity that all the highly interesting and informative posts are sometimes overshadowed by the occasional unpleasant outbursts and sarcasm.
Going back to posts of recent months here are a few gems:
<<Re: The use of the Larynx in voicing
“So I would argue against saying that the 'larynx' modifies the clarinet sound, because it's clearly a lie. (The larynx is a generator, like a mouth-organ.)........ “a lie”? more fighting talk!
and again
<<....It's a pity. I have to say that listening to your 'a little Mozart', in which you do indeed make a lovely sound and play most musically, you would have been better advised to be thinking more about the pitch of your first and indeed subsequent replies to the string quartet -- particularly the pitch of the open G -- than about keeping your throat open, your tongue down, or whatever it was you were doing at the time.
Tony
Seems unnecessarily sarcastic and condescending to me.
and yet again
<<.....I talk about it all in an entirely different way -- and, I have to say, disparage the tradition that Ed represents. It demeans what the clarinet may best be, as does much of the American school of 'music as PRESENTATION' -- which isn't confined to our instrument.>>
Yes indeed, talk about disparagement. I haven’t seen anything by Ed Palanker that attacks you in this way; in fact he’s too forbearing - maybe that’s what irked you; he wouldn’t be drawn into an open fight. Clearly your MO is to try to annoy and belittle people for your own amusement. I have come to believe that you are just laughing up your sleeve at the distress you cause....
Then there is this sequence. Clearly one rule for Pay, another for the rest of us.....
Re: Is there a proper tongue position?
Author: Tony Pay (---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk - ISP in Antony, C6 United Kingdom)
Date: 2008-09-20 17:46
Bravo! Good post, Ed.
Tony
but in another thread we have this:
Author: mrn (---.tx.res.rr.com - ISP in Frisco, TX United States)
Date: 2008-11-25 20:39
"I fear I find these two works quite awkward and unpleasant as viola sonatas."
-- Johannes Brahms, letter to Joseph Joachim, October 17, 1894
followed by:
Author: cigleris (---.range86-141.btcentralplus.com - ISP in Reading, K7 United Kingdom)
Date: 2008-11-25 21:13
Great quote!
Peter Cigleris
http://www.canteloubetrio.com
capped by you know who:
Author: Tony Pay (---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk - ISP in Antony, C6 United Kingdom)
Date: 2008-11-25 22:09
Cigleris wrote:
>> Great quote!>>
Is this intended to be a contribution?
Tony >>
‘nuff said?
Frequently patronizing, as well as insulting, as in:
Re: Philippe Cuper Masterclass
Author: Tony Pay (---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk - ISP in Antony, C6 United Kingdom)
Date: 2008-07-31 07:42
<<....why do these Frenchmen continue to bang on about that Poulenc Sonata stuff?">>
<<.....I did think he showed himself to be a good player, by the way.>>
<<....Now, if somebody I respected told me that Cuper was actually a GREAT clarinettist, I might take them seriously, and go out of my way to listen to some of his work.
But a highly presumptuous and ignorant old geezer like you...well.....>>
and this petulant little outburst when he failed to understand the original question and subsequent clarifications......
<<.....So now, I notice that I have been spending inordinate amounts of time posting carefully crafted posts; whilst you typically respond with enigmatic oneliners.
GET LOST.
I don't CARE whether or not you ever get to play the clarinet any better.
First, I doubt that you make any contribution with your playing now; and second, I doubt that whatever anyone says, you will EVER make a contribution.
As far as I can see, you're what's called a waste of space.>>
And of course while the rest of us may not express an opinion unless we can support it with cold, hard fact that cannot be disputed, here is Mr Pay’s response to Sherman Friedland in the “kegelstatt” thread:
Bud Wright's great performance (I haven't heard it, but let's assume it IS great) wasn't great BECAUSE HE PLAYED THE NOTES HE PLAYED. It was great because of all sorts of other things about his playing, to do with his continuing response to what he'd played the moment before, to what his colleagues had played the moment before...and many other things besides, adding up to an ALIVENESS of presentation, both individually and as a group.....>> >>
( so would the performance have been great if Harold Wright had played other notes than those he did play?)
While elsewhere :
<< Author: Tony Pay (---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk - ISP in Antony, C6 United Kingdom)
Date: 2008-12-03 00:12
Iceland clarinet wrote:
>> Well it's about 3-4 years since I heard this so thinks might have change.>>
What use is that?
Don't post about things you know nothing about.
Tony >>
Well I could keep on but that’s enough. Lelia we’re not talking about justified, constructive criticism here, harsh as it may sometimes be, we’re talking about insults, disparagement, childish and churlish behaviour which adds nothing to the discourse on this board. I can’t stop people from posting this kind of stuff but I can control what I post and I think that was the whole point of Ed’s original “Resolutions” post. That it degenerated into this thread is a great pity. However If I can’t stop Mr Pay from writing this I can certainly follow Ed Palanker’s lead and stop reading it. So I shall. After all there are plenty of other good horn players with words worth reading
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-01-06 19:14
I've been following this thread since it started and chose to stay out of it, now I can't help feeling that it's getting out of hand. I'm not really going to take sides here, though I know Tony, but my feelings towards this is that everyone should have the right to express an opinion however trivial.
As one of the posters above said, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", well I believe in that and that is what helps to make us better musicians/clarinet players. If a comment is taken the wrong way when it was meant in a completely different way, well that is the the individual's problem i'm afraid.
Chris posted a post of mine which received a comment from Tony, well I must say that I was not in the slightest bothered by it because I know that's how Tony is sometimes. Infact he made me then expand a bit further on that thread as you can see. The same would apply to Ed, I wouldn't take offense at anything that he said. I want to learn from these people, even the ones I've never personally met or played to.
We should all have fun and try not to take ourselves to seriously.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-01-06 19:16
BTW, loved the picture of the snowed in VW
Peter Cigleris
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-01-06 21:16
"BTW, loved the picture of the snowed in VW"
Me too. Brought back lots of memories of the 6 older Beetles and one Karmann-Ghia I had. Took a lot of will power to keep from getting a new one recently. I just might do it yet......
Bob Draznik
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-07 01:17
chris moffatt wrote:
<<Such a pity that all the highly interesting and informative posts are sometimes overshadowed by the occasional unpleasant outbursts and sarcasm.>>
If you are so opposed to sarcasm, why do you use it yourself? I mean, if sarcasm were verboten, you wouldn't be able to write stuff like:
<<Since, as we know, Mr Pay never posts an opinion (he doesn’t agree with opinion and never gives one himself), only defensible hard fact, we must accept this condemnation of Ed’s work as the final and only valid judgment.>>
or this:
<<And of course while the rest of us may not express an opinion unless we can support it with cold, hard fact that cannot be disputed, here is Mr Pay’s response to Sherman Friedland in the “kegelstatt” thread:
Bud Wright's great performance (I haven't heard it, but let's assume it IS great) wasn't great BECAUSE HE PLAYED THE NOTES HE PLAYED. It was great because of all sorts of other things about his playing, to do with his continuing response to what he'd played the moment before, to what his colleagues had played the moment before...and many other things besides, adding up to an ALIVENESS of presentation, both individually and as a group.....>> >>
( so would the performance have been great if Harold Wright had played other notes than those he did play?)>>
...
<<After all there are plenty of other good horn players with words worth reading>>
OK. Now you've done it. You see, I can tolerate a little sarcasm, but what I absolutely cannot tolerate is people who call my instrument a horn!
(Now it's your turn. You get to make sarcastic statements about my making sarcastic statements about your sarcastic statements about Tony's allegedly sarcastic statements! Isn't this fun???)
Post Edited (2009-01-07 07:00)
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-01-07 07:27
"After all there are plenty of other good horn players with words worth reading"
This is a correct statement in itself, but it does seem that Tony Pay is the only internationally recognised big name clarinettist providing regular readable material on this forum, though there are of course a large number of his peers who choose not to, or else are successfully hiding behind nommes de plume, or sticking pretty rigidly to one technical topic (e.g. mouthpieces).
Does this fact point towards him being a bit crazy or having complex and potentially non-well meaning reasons for providing his insights? Perhaps so, but that is a matter of conjecture or opinion, and possibly is irrelevant or an immaterial question to many people. Just like with teachers, who may be great players, if you do not like his style or approach, stay out of his way. If you like having a go at him and because, actually you find his abrasive style curiously engaging, then may be you are a bit crazy as well ("you" in the general sense, not singling out Chris).
One point of personal irritation (speaking as an "English gentleman"): people who have something stern to say about other posters resorting to calling them Mr. so-and-so whilst retaining forenames for those they favour. This does seem too pompous.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-01-07 13:04
Just a comment - having had brief contact with Tony Pay fairly recently I thought he was full of good ideas and very modest - not the "I'm a star" type although he was attending the event as special guest coach. I don't know much about Ed being from the UK and I have not listened to his Mozart but I usually find what he writes very reasonable and mild-mannered - the kind of sympathetic teacher who would get good results from a lot of people. If the two of them have had some kind of virtual falling out, I'm surprised but personally I am sure that we can all still gain from both of them.
Vanessa.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-01-08 00:11
Not to use profanity...
its all here
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2004/03/001011.txt
David Dow
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2009-01-08 03:59
Tony cracks me up with some of his posts. I would also like to add that he is the only poster that makes me think and can talk about music without talking about clarinet...that's rare on this board.
I have learned much from his contributions or at least learned that I need to learn much more.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-01-08 15:30
A lot of the time Tony is putting you guys on. He likes to rattle your cages and see you jump about.
Let him have his fun. His nastiness will be blown back in his face by decent opnion. It's a bit sad though to read some of his more vulgar posts. A lot of young people read this BB and they're going to be disappointed in the tasteless antics of a well known musican.
Maybe I should post an exacting review of his Concerto CD? We'll see whose bull is gored then!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-08 16:24
Now that just about anyone who cares has had their say:
I'll be more than happy to re-open this thread if there's anything relevant to add.
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The Clarinet Pages
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