 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-20 14:58
For those of you who are technicians:
According to the tuner my clarinet is basically in tune except that the low Bb is a whole 5 cents sharp. The low A is only slightly sharp, and the notes below it are fine. The C and D above it are fine as well.
This normally wouldn't be too great an issue except that when playing the Schubert Trio Op.99, playing the violin part with C clarinet. There are two areas in the second movement where both the cellist and I sit on an extended syncopated Bb while the pianist does her thing. (I've marked the violin/C clarinet part two octaves lower in order to not play a pp Bb in the stratosphere, and to not play the same mid Bb as the cello while the piano has its beautiful solo.) In order to compensate I have to lip down considerably while trying not to let the tone wobble. In rehearsal I have my tuner on the stand in order to find out how far to relax on the reed to be in tune, and it's a lot!
So is there something that my repairman has missed this week? Perhaps a tone hole is too small? A pad not raised quite enough? He replaced a couple of lower pads and did some key adjustments so that the keys sit better over the tone holes so now the resonance and sound projection is much better. But this specific problem didn't get resolved.
We're playing this piece in concert on Saturday! 'Am I ready yet?' a friend asked. We can't say we're totally ready until afterwards... when we have audience members tearfully tell us how moved they were... we hope! It'll be vidoetaped, and knowing our audience the DVD of the evening's performances will be played in many parts of the earth. Not a situation to be overly confident, nor to have a sharp Bb.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-10-20 15:26
How is your top line F? If it is not sharp, you might want to try lining the upper half of the hole under your right middle finger with a layer or two of plastic electrician's tape to see if you can bring the pitch down.
It might be worth it to put the top line F flatter just to give yourself peace of mind for this performance --and then peel it out later.
good luck
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-20 15:58
OK, the sticky black tape my Dad uses on his electronic stuff over the years, not the white non-sticky plumbing tape in my clarinet case...
So how do you line the upper half of the tone hole? I can only imagine using a small piece and pressing it into the tone hole and curving the extra 2 mm underneath into the bore.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gregory Williams
Date: 2008-10-20 16:36
The intersection of the bore of the clarinet and the chimney of the tone hole is filleted...or undercut. Make sure that the tape is only in the chimney part of the tone hole, and does not extend into the bore or undercutting...otherwise the notes can sound fuzzy. You can use a razor blade to trim the size. Clean the tone hole first with a q tip. I usually cut a strip of tape just long enough to go halfway around the tone hole on the upper side (mouthpiece side of the instrument). You may need less tape since the Bb is only 5 cents sharp. By placing tape in the top part of the hole...closest to the mouthpiece, you are effectively moving the hole further down the instrument and making it smaller. This will have the most effect on the Bb and some effect on the F. You can also use two layers of tape if necessary. make the second layer slightly shorter than the bottom. You can use electrical tape, white medical tape works well, or gaffers tape. Some people use cork with contact cement. Don't get any contact cement on the pad seat...or your pad will stick. Probably best to use the tape at first...and have a repair person help you with the cork if you like the results.
Greg
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-20 16:51
Thanks, guys, for the detailed explanation! I'll give this a try.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-20 18:06
The advice about filling the upper side of the tone hole can work, but hold on a minute!
Brenda, are you saying that the low Bb being 5 cents sharp, and the low A being slightly sharp (less than 5 cents), is the worse intonation problem you have on your clarinet?! You did say "a whole 5 cents" which to me implies you mean that is a lot.
Just for example, tuning to 441 instead of 440 would make almost as big difference as that. It is also relatively easy to keep a good tone and make intonation change of much more than 5 cents. The fact that you say adjusting for 5 cents you need to "lip down considerably" suggests that you don't lip up/down at all generally yet your clarinet is less than 5 cetns out of tune for all notes...? This sounds very strange but anyway....
More specific to your quesiton, if a pad doesn't lift high enough the note will only be flatter and more stuffier. There is a moment where the note becomes stuffy so the pad should be above that and as high as it needs to be for intonation (there isn't a huge range of intonation variation with pad high above the point where the note is not stuffy).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-20 19:15
Nitai's right (in fact, I think he's more right than he thought he was). 5 cents is not much at all, especially at that low a pitch. If my math is correct, we're talking about only a 0.67 Hz difference in pitch between a perfect low Bb (233.08 Hz) and one that's 5 cents sharp (233.76 Hz).
Even if you were playing unison, let's say, you'd have a beat tone with a period of almost 2 seconds. That seems awfully close to me. Unless you're playing with Yo-Yo Ma, I'll bet your cellist's pitch will vary more than that in a performance, even if you're perfectly in tune with the tuner. (and even Yo-Yo Ma isn't going to play everything exactly at the tuner's pitch)
I really don't think you need to modify your instrument if the furthest out of tune you get is 5 cents, especially since that 5 cent deviation in the low register might be there *by design* to prevent some bigger problem from occurring in a higher register--the design of a clarinet (like that of any machine) is full of compromises between competing constraints. A 5 cent deviation in the altissimo register, for example, is a bigger deal because the beat frequency becomes more noticeable (and the altissimo register is notoriously flat, don't forget--so a little sharpness in the low Bb is probably a good thing).
My undergraduate education was in engineering. These days engineers use really fancy calculators to do complicated calculations they used to do with slide rules. While I don't think anyone seriously wants to go back to using nothing but slide rules (by the time I studied engineering, nobody I knew, except for myself and some of the professors, even knew how to use one), they did have an advantage over calculators in that they didn't lull you into a false sense of perfect accuracy like calculators do. With a slide rule, you get a better sense of how critical (or not) your calculations are because you can see how close together the little marks are to each other. They also remind you that absolutely perfect numbers are never attainable.
Electronic tuners are kind of like digital calculators in that they can give you pretty exact results, but the level of detail they provide is often overkill. And they certainly can't tell you that 5 cents difference in the chalumeau register is much, much less perceptible than 5 cents difference in the altissimo register (which is several Hertz difference at that high a pitch).
If it were me, I'd perhaps use the tuner to help get everybody *tuned to the piano* before you play, but then I'd put it away. If it sounds good--don't mess with the tuning. If the tuning sounds bad, chances are good that the cello is the culprit (since they have more variable tuning than we do) as well as the person most able to fix tuning issues (for the same reason).
Also, are you absolutely sure that the tuner is reading you and not the cello? If you're in octaves, like your post indicates, it's very likely that the tuner is displaying the pitch of the cello and not you. To the tuner, you (the clarinet) look like a harmonic of the cello, so it's probably going to filter you out and listen to what it thinks is the fundamental pitch, which would be the cello's note. That might explain why lipping down doesn't seem to have much effect on what the tuner reads when you're practicing. As I suggested above, your ear will give you more useful information about ensemble tuning than a tuner will.
Post Edited (2008-10-20 19:51)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gregory Williams
Date: 2008-10-20 19:25
The tape thing does seem like a lot of work for 5 cents...try putting down some fingers in the right hand like the low f/c or e/b keys.
greg
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-20 19:57
Well, that's part of the problem.... our cellist hasn't completely mastered being consistently in tune. So my little bit sharp is amplified by his being just that little bit flat. When facing an upcoming concert there comes a point when, if one cannot keep in tune for a certain note, the others compensate in order to satisfy the ear. Once we get to our venue and try the piano we could have other surprises in store for us.
Anyway, I'll try the tape since it's only temporary and can be pulled back out if it throws things off too far.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-10-20 22:12
It's fine to try using the tape, although it will likely bring your F flatter too, which could be a bigger problem.
I would correct the sharp B-flat using the third finger of the right hand. You can partly cover the hole with this finger until you find the right tuning. It's better to use this 3rd finger rather than the 2nd finger, because the 2nd finger is on the nearest open hole and the slightest change of how much you cover this hole makes big differences in the tuning. Using one hole further away means that you make larger adjustments with the finger with smaller effects on the tuning. That being said, you still have to find the right amount of hole to cover, but this can be done quite easily with a bit of practise.
All the best for your concert!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2008-10-21 05:01
The above is all expert good advice.
Sharpness in the middle of the low register right hand can sometimes be corrected by using a Moennig type barrel rather than the original barrel, but I don't think the 5 cents is much to worry about. For now, the answer could be, as suggested above, to put another RH finger down. Actually, it would probably be impossible to find a Moennig barrel for a C clarinet, anyhow. Have a good concert!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-21 10:43
I have not read all the posts, so I am sorry if this is a repeat of what someone else wrote.
If the lowest Bb is a bit sharp and you have a performance on Saturday, try these fingerings.
xxx l xox
Try this with and without the pinky keys on the right hand. One of those combinations should help you bring the pitch down.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-10-21 12:15
5c is not a lot. A number of things could be happening here to affect your /perception/ of the note...
1. The harmonic structure of that section might be tempting the cellist to pull the note slightly to sound perfectly in tune. Easy to do on a 'cello, not so easy to follow on a clarinet.
2. Pianos are nominally tuned to an even scale - but even they can be 'stretch tuned', where all the octaves are slightly oversize.
3. Blending the same note on two different instruments is not always easy. [As I understand it, (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) the 'partials' of a note that sound at the same time as the fundamental are not necessarily /exactly/ the same as the true harmonics (2x, 3x etc.) and need not be the same between strings / winds.]
The advice above, to /play the fingering that sounds right/, is good, I think.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2008-10-21 23:38
How about the simple expedient of pulling slightly at the middle joint?
This will nicely lower the C, B natural, Bb, and A with diminishing effects as you go lower in the scale.
Make sure you check your 12ths above to make sure that the G, F#, F, and E are not too low.
I doubt very much if a barrel with a moennig taper would help this problem, as it mainly only alters the twelfths in the upper joint.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New and Used Buffet Clarinets
World Class mouthpieces
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-10-22 00:30
Just put down some extra keys such as Greg Williams suggested. Another thing you can do is bring your middle and ring fingers very close to their respective holes while playing the B Flat and A. This is the easiest way to alter the pitch of those 2 notes in either register and you have a lot of controll and flexibility over how low you need to make those pitches.
Another way of doing this is is to lay your fingers sort of flat across those holes meaning the tips of your fingers will be on the left side post. One way or another, getting your fingers close to those holes with out closing them will give you all the controll you need on those notes with regards to intonation.
One thing to consider, getting them to close will cause your sound to get stuffy but with a little practice, you will get the hang of it. This seems like the best thing to try to me since you say your clarinet is in tune in other areas. Pulling out the middle joint may or may not work and might cause other issues. Easiest to use tape or use your fingers to impede the air coming out of the next closest hole to the note you are playing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-22 02:23
Walter and Ryan, It would be simple to pull out in the middle joint except that it's not an option. This is a Rossi C clarinet, and all of his clarinets are made as one piece precisely because of tuning issues in other brands. I'm glad to hear that the small amount that we've been talking about is truly considered small and it might well have part of the design in order to avoid other problems further up the scale.
This clarinet's been such a joy to hear while I've been practicing with it, that when it was in the repair shop for its tweaking I felt sad about having to resort to my Buffet Bb. But a Brahms performance is coming up and that means taking the Bb clarinet up again.
We have our last rehearsal on Thursday morning so I'll see how useful all of these suggestions are and which one works the best. I'm grateful to have such a range of ideas to work with.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-27 02:03
The concert last night went very well! Our audience was very appreciative in spite of not being classically inclined. We played only movements 2 and 3 of the Schubert Trio which was sufficient for this mix of people. There were lots of compliments afterwards, plus a new invitation to play at a recital this coming May.
The problem with the Bb being too sharp was solved quite well by pressing an extra key. Interestingly, however, during the concert the Bb problem wasn't as great as it had seemed. It was obvious that the cellist had worked considerably on his intonation. Also the new Heinzman piano at the venue was better in tune that the one we'd rehearsed with. We'll see how the DVD of the evening turns out in order to do a more objective post-mortem.
In any case, Mr. Rossi was very quick to respond to my e-mail and told me what the repair tech should be looking for. The Rossi design is different from other clarinets in order to assure good intonation throughout the range of notes. Since he designed the clarinet with an extra tone hole & pad cup near the bottom between the two we normally expect to see, he suggested a very small variation in adjustment to allow the long F/C to seal properly. Once this is done then the tuning should return to being consistent along its length.
Post Edited (2008-10-27 14:23)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: malanr
Date: 2008-10-28 18:06
Brenda, you could use the same technique for the cellist as what I use when trying to tune two piccolos. SHOOT ONE!!!
Haha
I couldn't resist.
Just another muscian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-28 18:11
Oh I know, it's so hard sometimes! In our clarinet choir we have between 4 and 10 people with different sizes and makes of instruments trying to tune, and it's challenging.
But the cellist is young and cute, and he's a registered nurse, so he'd be missed by more than just our Trio. We'll just have to spare him.... At least the pianist has an excuse - she can't help how the note sounds when she plays, but then we have to do all the adjusting.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
