 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-07-30 21:52
I am going to invest in an alto saxophone in order to make myself a more versatile musician. And I just love playing jazz on the clarinet, so why not on sax?
What is the SAME between the clarinet and sax?
What are, if at all, the drastic differences?
Do you have any suggestions for a reasonably priced (under $2500) new or used alto sax that seems to play well for it's cost? I know I need to try, try and try, and believe me I am, but i need something that will get me going and keep up with me for several years until i become a more advanced saxophonist.
Any random tips on doubling, or playing sax?
Thanks
how ignorant of me... spelling corrected, thanks Chris P.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
Post Edited (2008-07-30 23:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-30 22:49
The lower register on an alto sax sounds at exactly the SAME PITCH as the lower register on clarinet, although the note names are different (and this can help when playing clarinet parts on sax, or vice versa). So low F on a clarinet sounds the same as low C on an alto sax (which is concert Eb).
Most of the fingerings on sax (in the lower and upper register) are identical to the upper register fingerings on clarinet, so D is xxx|xxx and G is xxx|ooo.
Saxes have long Bb (xoo|xoo) and side Bb key (xxo|Bb ooo) as well as the cross F# 'sliver' key for playing E#-F# or F-Gb smoothly (xxx|xo,o).
But I reckon you'll get fluent on sax in a short space of time, and getting around in some tricky keys that you may not be so comfortable playing in on clarinet. Get some dance band or big band playing in too - it's always nice to play in a sax section.
As for saxes, look out for a used Yamaha YAS-62 that is in good playing order. There are several good makes, but I think a good used Yamaha 62 alto will last you for yonks.
You may also want to try out some older American pro saxes (in good workign order too) such as Conn, Buescher, Martin and King, though do ask for advice on any of these (and find out the model) to be sure you don't get something that's not worth much.
Though please do use the correct spelling - it's 'saxOphone', as opposed to 'saxAphone' as this can upset some sax players (and make others laugh).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-07-30 22:51
You need a much looser embouchure to play alto sax, especially to get low notes out. Whereas altissimo notes are harder to play on clarinet than the bottom chalumeau notes, sax is sort of reversed in this regard. The bottom part of the sax's range can be quite difficult to get to speak. I think this was the trickiest thing for me in moving from clarinet to alto sax.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-07-30 23:07
> Yamaha YAS-62
2nd that. wonderful instrument.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-07-31 00:50
If you have $2,500 to spend, you don't have to buy a used instrument. For about $2,250, you can buy a new Yamaha YAS-62II or a Yanagisawa A901. Either of those should serve you very well.
In addition to some of the similarities/differences mentioned above, saxophones have no thumb hole. Also, if you think there are a lot of different designs in clarinet mouthpieces, wait until you start looking at sax mouthpieces.
There are currently two schools of thought regarding whether modern saxes or vintage saxes are a better choice. Proponents of both inhabit this bulletin board. Those who prefer the vintage saxes usually swear by their tone and big sound (but, sometimes, at their intonation ). Those who prefer modern saxes will point to better intonation and far more ergonomic keywork, which makes them easier to play. Personally, I think vintage saxes are an acquired taste and, for what you want, I think a modern one would be a good place to start. I think it also more likely that a newer sax will be in good adjustment -- critical for playing the low notes (but, disclaimer, I am firmly in the modern camp). I have a couple of vintage Kings but the saxes I play are Yamahas (soprano, tenor) and Yanagisawa (alto).
The sax professor at my University, who happens to be one of the top free-lance players in St. Louis, thinks very highly of Cannonball saxes for beginners. They might be worth some research but, IMHO, if you can afford it, it's tough to beat a Yamaha YAS-62.
Because of its size, an alto is probably an easier instrument to learn on. It might be interesting, though, to hear the opinions of other folks on the bulletin board on whether they think a tenor might be more useful in the long run. Nowadays, my sax playing is pretty much limited to orchestral playing and shows and I play the two about the same. When I started years ago, however, the tenor was much more versatile because it was by far the instrument of choice for for rock n' roll. One advantage I think a tenor has is that, at least IMO, its easier to transpose fake books/lead sheets on a Bb instrument (tenor) than an Eb (alto) -- and is the same transposition as your clarinet.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: am0032
Date: 2008-07-31 01:15
You won't have much difficulty with the fingering except that you will have to get used to different note positioning with your eyes. IE..Low C fingering on clarinet same as G on sax but 2nd line in the staff. Not too big a deal though.
I use a lower tongue position for jazz and try to use an embouchure as if I have been watching TV for 18 hours straight.
The YAS-62 is a great horn. The new 62II are a bit stuffy I think compared to the old 62. The New Custom Z horn is closer in feel to the old 62 and more free blowing than the 62II.
Have fun!!!
Adam
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Author: allencole
Date: 2008-07-31 02:18
I bought one of the early YAS-62's (for $900 in 1981!) and have never looked back. A great deal for sure.
I wouldn't worry to much about similarities and differences between the two instruments. Clarinet to sax is a pretty easy conversion for almost any good clarinetist. (sax to clarinet, on the other hand...)
If you've ever seen the Bugs Bunny cartoon where the truck spills its load of hats, remember how each falling hat would change the personality of Bugs or Elmer Fudd as it landed on their head. That's my personal vision of doubling.
Allen Cole
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-31 03:28
Try a Brilhart 5* mouthpiece if you can find one. Let me know if you want more details about my experience with changing to this alto mouthpiece and why.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-08-01 00:13
Hi,
I have stopped using my Mark VI alto and gone to a Super 80 (the first model) which I bought NOS for less than the Yamaha 62. I really like it as I thought the VI had a somewhat dark (aka covered) sound.
However, last summer one of my sax section mates had a new Yamaha Custom and we switched for a few tunes. It was almost like having identical instruments. But then my backup tenor for my Mark VI is a nice YTS 475. Yamaha really makes nice saxes (and my Yamaha CS Custom clarinet is the very best).
I would not stay with the stock MP though. I use a Meyer 7M, a classic short shank Selmer E or a Rico Royal B5 or M5 (believe it or not). The MP will really be important as a doubler.
HRL
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-08-01 03:13
Totally different embouchure. Actually easier once you've got it, because it is a lot more relaxed.
For clarinet you draw the lower lip thin over the teeth. For sax you bunch it up thick, and not drawn over the teeth. Because sax needs more lip in contact with the reed, for tone, control, and getting low notes.
Chin soft tissue is pushed up rather than pulled down.
(In my non-expert, never-been-formally-taught-either analysis.)
Fingering really is a lot easier on sax, except for skating around those left hand spatulas. And of course you do not need to cover tone holes with your fingers, so no squeaks :-) Unless you get accomplished at altissimo - a whole new ball game, involving critical tongue position for mouth cavity - the range is smaller than on clarinet.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-08-01 17:36
Use plenty of vibrato on sax--somewhat of a "no-no" for most clarinet playing.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-02 23:41
What with Yamaha's downgrading of their lineup, the YAS-82Z is really the nearest thing to the YAS-62 saxes of old (with the large bell key guard and purple logo) - though that's not to say the current 62II series are bad saxes, they're just not really in the same league the 62s once were, though they're still good value for money.
But I'll never change my 18-year old 62 bari for a current one - I didn't like the new 62 baris at all. If Yamaha ever get their act together and manage to better the old 62 baris by offering a Custom series bari (YBS-875?) then I'd like to compare it against my trusty YBS-62.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-08-03 16:33
Brillhart 5*
Brilliant choice. I used one for years with my boss's Selmer Mk VI tenor and alto.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-08-03 20:40
Ryder,
You've already received a considerable amount of helpful information. I have only several things to add:
1.) The obvious: Study with a saxophone teacher....perhaps even better, a teacher who is also a superb doubler on saxophone and clarinet. You'll make much more rapid progress this way and avoid pitfalls that you might fall into if you try to learn the saxophone on your own. A good teacher can also help with equipment selections.
2.) Listen to a wide range of classical and jazz saxophonists. As an overall excellent saxophonist with a beautiful sound, Dick Higgins is as good of a player to start with as any. You've probably already heard him in several movie and TV soundtracks and probably didn't know who the soloist was. Higgins was the alto saxophone soloist in the Tom Hanks movie Catch Me If You Can (I think that's the title). His sound and playing were absolutely gorgeous with the John Williams score. Higgins is also a fine jazz clarinetist. If you do a Dick Higgins search on YouTube you'll find some wonderful clips of his playing. The saxophone sound you develop will be YOUR sound. However, it's helpful to have a list of great players you admire as a way to develop your tonal conception of the saxophone.
3.) The choice of a saxophone and mouthpiece is personal. Whenever the subject of horn or mouthpiece selection is asked on the Sax On The Web forum it's common for the guys to respond with whatever equipment THEY like. Such suggestions may or may not be the best ones for the person asking the question. It's important for you to try a selection of horns and mouthpieces to find the combination that feels like a good match for you. The Catch-22 is sometimes beginners on the saxophone may not have enough experience yet to make a good selection. This is where having a good teacher can be helpful. Never the less, to take a stab at it....I'd suggest trying a Fobes. Clark Fobes' beginner mouthpieces are good quality and should be fine for at least your first year. There's one thing to be aware of: Some mouthpieces that were top-level in the past -- such as Meyer, Otto Link, and (I believe) Brillhart -- are now being made by the Babbitt Company. Some saxophonists are of the opinion these mouthpieces are not of the same high quality as when the mouthpieces were produced by their original designers. That said, if one tries a selection of current production Meyer, Otto Link, or Brillhart mouthpieces it's possible that a good one can be found. Of course, this will take a level of saxophone experience and I don't recommend it for a beginner. It's my personal opinion that you won't go wrong with a Fobes saxophone mouthpiece. (In case you're wondering, my saxophone mouthpiece is a Ralph Morgan 6C. It's an exceptionally fine mouthpiece but I would not recommend it for someone new to the saxophone.)
Good luck and welcome to the saxophone!
Roger
Post Edited (2008-08-03 20:55)
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-08-03 20:45
Just a slight correction to Roger's excellent advice above: I believe the player he recommends is DAN Higgins, not Dick.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-08-03 20:57
There's actually several combo arrangements (concert band, orchestra, piano) of the Williams piece with Sax soloist.
I heard live last year the Paris Conservatiore teacher play it with the Navy Band.
Way cool work - hard too!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-08-03 21:37
How does one who has only tried to play an alto sax a few times choose one. I can't play one very well at all, so obviously i have little experience. So little in fact that i would sound like crap on any sax, as of now that is. should i find a sax teacher, or professional player to help me in reccomendations and chosing equipment?
What if i were to rent a student sax from a music store and learn basics and how to produce a sound on it, then return it and invest in a professional model? Of course i would buy a good (in my opinion) mouthpiece and work with reeds while i have the rental sax. That way I will be able to better determine which sax is "better" for me.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have experience with the newer Buffet 400 series altos? They seem decently priced, but I'm skeptical.
Thanks for the help.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-08-04 00:49
Ryder,
I've seen several positive reviews written about the Buffet alto sax. However, I haven't had a chance to try one.
Personally, I think the recommendations for a Yamaha are right on the mark. Renting a student Yamaha saxophone and studying with a good teacher make a lot of sense to me.
It's possible that your teacher will have connections with local music stores to help you get a good deal on a rental.
With that in mind, it makes sense to me to first find a saxophone teacher and then work with your teacher to rent a horn and purchase a mouthpiece & reeds based upon his suggestions. In this way, you won't have to struggle to figure out all of it on your own in order to get up and running.
Good luck!
Roger
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-04 08:08
If you want a good student sax which isn't far off Yamaha, the Jupiter 700 series are excellent contenders - later on you can part exchange when it comes to upgrading. You may even be able to get one on a 'rent-to-buy' basis.
But get a good mouthpiece as soon as possible as the plastic ones supplied with most saxes will only limit you - I recommend a Selmer C** or Vandoren A25.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bandfreak
Date: 2008-08-04 13:55
I'm no expert but I've been doubleing for a few years now and I started with clarinet like you. My recomindation is to invest in a premium mouthpiece rather than a premium sax. Any decent sax will do. A few warnings though stay awy from any oriental sax that is not Yamaha or Yanagisawa, maybe Jupiter. Also aviod Conns, Buesher, or Bundys. Unless they are vintage, I personally use a vintage 6m Conn, but make sure you know it works perfectly if you buy vintage. Though I got off topic the main point is that the biggest determinant, as long as its a decent sax, of a good sax sound is the mouthpiece.
On the other topic the saxophone and clarinet are very simmilar, but different. You will have ombisher problems switching back and forth at first. Also, because the clarinet is constucted in twelves, I mean you to go 12 notes up on a major scale to get tho the same fingering, ie low C becomes high G, sax is a bit simmpler in that sence. Saxophoce is in pefect octives meaning the low and high notes will have the same fingering unless they are extreme low notes or Altissimo notes, this makes it a little easier to learn. Also the break on saxophone is very simple not like the huge hurdle you may have faced with the clarinet. The easiest way tho think about notes on alto sax is on the low register the fingerings are relitivly the same concert pitch, meaning Alto's G and Clarinet's C both = concert Bb, and in the higher register relativly the same written note, meaning left hand holes covered = alto G and clarinet G but diffent concert pitches.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-04 14:42
With sax, don't tighten up your embouchure as you go up - it'll make you go really sharp.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-04 14:59
One other thing I just thought of... If you happen to buy a really good vintage sax, keep in mind that relacquering the instrument (so it looks all new and shiny) will change the sound and not necessarily for the better. I had a sax playing buddy in HS who went on to study with Hemke at Northwestern. I remember he had his Mark VI relacquered and really regretted it afterwards, because it changed the sound.
Not to say that you can't have it relacquered and have it sound as good or better than it did before, but you probably have to be very selective with who you use.
I think renting a sax is a good way to go to start--that's what I did. When I was in JHS I really, really, really wanted to play in the school's jazz band, but they wouldn't let me audition on clarinet. So my parents rented me a sax and I went home and learned how to play it over Christmas break. When I came back and auditioned, I made 1st chair (thus proving that sax is not that hard if you know clarinet). If I remembe correctly (it's been 20 years) my rental horn was a Bundy II with a Selmer C* mouthpiece.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-08-04 21:58
"Really good vintage sax"
Such a thing is about as common and as difficult to get for a cheap price as a vintage car.
A beginner has no idea whether a sax is in a good condition or not. So heading the vintage way as a beginner is a really risky way to go unless you have somebody who is very clued up and honest at evaluating for you.
There is a large number of vintage saxes in barely playable condition that just keep doing the rounds, repeatedly bought by naive, ill-advised beginners, who more than likely give up playing because they are unable to play on the decrepit piece of junk, little more useful than a neglected, decades old car that will never get a licence to be on the road again.
There is vintage and there is vintage. A small proportion are fine, and the price is likely to reflect that, but the bulk are worth, after decently worked on, little more than the large amount of money spent on the work needed.
As a beginner, remain objective; don't get emotionally influenced to the label "vintage"! Are the above risks what a beginner really needs?
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-08-05 00:30
I'm a big fan of vintage saxophones. I've become totally spoiled with 1930's Bueschers...especially the New Aristocrat model. Now, whenever I try a new saxophone I shrug my shoulders and walk away from it. I absolutely love the special tonal qualities and superb intonation of a New Aristocrat. I have yet to find a modern saxophone that makes me want to switch.
Having said that, I completely agree with Gordon about how it's not a good idea for a beginner to go vintage. Working with vintage saxophones takes a good level of experience. For beginners, I think Yamaha or Jupiter is the way to go. They are excellent instruments and can take one a long way down the road.
For those interested in vintage saxophones, it's important to have 2 things (besides $$): 1.) Know a reputable dealer(s) who specializes in quality vintage saxophones and 2.) a good repair tech who understands and appreciates vintage horns.
I'm lucky in having an outstanding repair tech in the Maryland/Washington DC area. He's done superb work on my vintage horns and keeps them in top playing condition.
I've also gotten to know several vintage saxophone dealers whom I personally know to be honest, provide great customer support, and sells quality instruments.
These two things have helped me to find vintage horns that I truly love....horns that will last beyond my lifetime.
Roger
Post Edited (2008-08-05 00:36)
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