 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: vetkoek
Date: 2008-07-21 17:44
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum and clarinet playing but please keep reading regardless!
I have been playing the bagpipes professionally for the last 15 years and have now at 29 decided to give the clarinet a go because I adore the sound and have always wanted to play an orchestral instrument. I have been playing for about a month now and no matter how much I practice I can't seem to get the clear, loud and confident sound that my tutor manages. Now, I am told that the sound I am getting isn't that bad but I am obsessed with the 'breathy' quality I seem to only be capable of producing (a la Acker Bilk; don't get me wrong I have respect for all of these people, but it's not the sound I want!)
Now I am trying to get to the root of this issue, and was wondering if anyone here could give me some input. Is it my embouchure? Perhaps the angle at which i'm holding the clarinet? Or could it possibly be the reed or instrument? I am currently playing the Buffet B12 with a 2.5 Rico reed. I thought perhaps it was the strength of the reed but I can blow the living daylights out of it (I like to think I have a good pair of lungs!) and still get that breezy, breathy sound.
Many thanks in advance!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vetkoek
Date: 2008-07-21 17:54
Ah, I am using the generic Buffet mouthpiece that I got with the clarinet, i'm afraid I can't be any more specific than that. I haven't tried any other mouthpieces before so that could be it. Is there a recommended mouthpiece/brand to try for beginner players?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-07-21 18:04
I would suggest the Hite Premier - its not that expensive and better than the stock mouthpiece.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-21 18:05
I'd suggest you don't blow so hard (you should be breathing into the clarinet, but breathing with plenty of abdominal support), use a softer reed and a firmer embouchure and things will probably clear up.
The fuzzy sound is more apparent in the lower register when the reed you're using is too hard for you, so try using a 2 and see if this makes it better. Anyone can make a hard reed play loudly by blowing hard and uncontrollably, but it's all about control (at all volume levels and different attacks) which is what you'll learn to do much better with a softer reed. You should be able to get the clarinet to whisper (and clearly) as well as play loudly and also diminuendo right down to nothing, and without a hint of breathiness.
If you're playing on the stock Buffet mouthpiece, it's alright for a while but you should consider upgrading to a better mouthpiece in a few months time. I'd recommend you get a Vandoren 5RV Lyre which will allow you to play on harder reeds yet has a close facing which will make the upper and altissimo registers speak easily and be much easier to control when you get to them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vetkoek
Date: 2008-07-21 18:22
Many thanks, I shall try a few different mouthpieces and go down on the strength of the reed and see how it goes. As regards the embouchure, do I need to be biting down on the mouthpiece or merely resting my top teeth on it? Unfortunately there is no alternating the blowing on the bagpipe's mouthpiece, so all I know is just blowing hard into the thing. I need to develop a sensitivity to the mouthpiece.
I am working on the F major scale and the G major in two octaves, so that is the highest i've been and I have to say that the breathiness does clear up on the higher notes so it could indeed be the reed strength.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-07-21 18:55
I'd be a little surprised if the reed is too hard. A 2.5 Rico is quite a soft reed. I'm assuming it's the type just marked Rico, not Rico Royal or Rico Grand Concert.
Unfortunately these cheap Rico reeds don't have a great reputation. You might want to try either one of Rico's better lines, as mentioned above, or an alternative make. Vandoren is the best known; Gonzalez are good but need to be mail-ordered, Mitchell Lurie (which are made by Rico) are a good choice for the beginner. The strength numbers are inconsistent between different lines, never mind between brands, but 2.5 or 3.0 should be about right in general.
You asked whether you should be biting down on the mouthpiece. The simple answer is no. The pressure should come from your lips, not your teeth. The realistic answer is that you probably will bite whatever the experts say. See if you can play with your upper lip curled over your teeth; this is called playing "double-lip", and some people do it all the time. It will probably be uncomfortable, but you should still be able to play, at least in the lower register. If you can't play at all like that then your reeds are too hard, or the mouthpiece is too open. The Buffet mouthpieces are imprecisely made and it may be that you have an unusually open one. (The more open the mouthpiece, the softer the reed you'll need.)
Inexpensive beginner mouthpieces with a good reputation come from Fobes, Hite and others. These may not be easy to find in the UK. Vandoren mouthpieces are more expensive, but much easier to find. The 5RVLyre, mentioned by Chris P, is a common recommendation for beginners in the UK. The consensus on this BBoard is that the Vandoren B45, while popular, is not a good beginner choice.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John25
Date: 2008-07-21 19:29
Welcome to the clarinet fraternity.
I support what Chris has said. I have never played the bagpipes but I suggest that the way of "blowing" into a woodwind insrument is far removed from blowing the pipes. If your cheeks are puffed out, you are definitely blowing too hard. Youe tutor should be able to show you the correct way to blow.
I am amazed that you are trying two octave scales after a month. Most tutors would keep you in the chalumeau (lower) register for about 6 months - until you have developed some sort of embouchure and control.
Lastly, why not let your tutor play your instrument with your reed and mouthpiece? He/she could soon tell you what they thought about your set-up. Don't expect to sound like your tutor straightaway - it takes months, even years, to produce a really good sound (please don't be discouraged by that!).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-07-21 19:47
John25 wrote:
"I am amazed that you are trying two octave scales after a month. Most tutors would keep you in the chalumeau (lower) register for about 6 months - until you have developed some sort of embouchure and control."
I think this may be true when teaching young kids; the Grade 1 ABSRM exam involves only the low register. But I doubt many adult beginners, especially those with experience on other instruments, are going to stick to the low register for more than a couple of weeks. I certainly didn't.
The crucial thing is not to force it. If it sounds good, play it. If you are straining to hit a high note, or producing it with poor tone, then probably you aren't yet ready for that note.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-07-21 20:03
Another point: You did ask about the angle at which you're holding the instrument. The proximity of clarinet to body is less important than THE ANGLE THE MP GOES INTO THE MOUTH. Try experimenting with different angles and also with the amount of MP in the mouth. The location of your lower lip on the reed can impact the sound!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-21 20:29
The angle which the clarinet is held at is variable from player to player - some players hold the clarinet close whereas others hold it out front more to an angle somewhere around 45° or even higher (more horizontal).
Some mouthpieces allow the clarinet to be held out more as they have a thinner beak (Vandoren 'Profile 88' series have a shallower angle to the beak compared to their traditional models) whereas mouthpieces with a much steeper angled beak will be more comfortable held more downward (less than 45°), but this all depends on your teeth (size and angle of both upper and lower incisors) and the amount of overbite you have. If you have a large overbite (or an undershot jaw) you may find playing at a downward angle to be more comfortable and more suitable for you.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-07-21 22:10
Hi vetkoek! Welcome to the board. Wow, I haven't eaten vetkoek for years! I also used to play bagpipes. The amount of air needed to blow a clarinet is really very, very little, compared to that needed for bagpipes. It's possible, for example, to hold a note in pianissimo on the clarinet for a whole minute. The sound resonates in your body and in the instrument, but it feels as if no air is actually moving. However, you are putting pressure on the air with your abdominal muscles. If you expel too much air into the instrument it will sound breathy. Hope that helps.
Post Edited (2008-07-22 05:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vetkoek
Date: 2008-07-22 07:24
Thank-you everyone for the warm welcome and input I can tell that this is going to be an invaluable resource! Liquorice I was wondering if anyone here would know the wonders of a lekker greasy vetkoek filled with mince!
I think I have moved ever-so slightly ahead in terms of scales because I can read music and have some dexterity, although very different to the pipes I feel I have a bit of the co-ordination necessary for the clarinet. But I think John has a point in that perhaps my fingers are moving too far ahead and my mouth control is falling behind. That is the last thing I want as I appreciate how important a good foundation is for any musical instrument; a bad beginning leads to a bad end! Also, the reason I mention the angle is that if I am getting that breathy sound I have tried to hold the embouchure as it is and just adjust the angle of the clarinet. This didn't improve the sound but it did give me a stronger note.
Many thanks again I will try all you have suggested.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-07-28 13:02
Hi Vetkoek,
Having read this thread, I just wonder whether I can make a couple of suggestions.
1) I have never tried playing the bagpipes but I have a feeling that you probably need to use the air in a less "focussed" and "directed" way than on the clarinet. As mentioned above, you don't need to puff the cheeks at all and the air should be going quite precisely down the mouthpiece. Has your teacher explained about breathing down towards the diaphragm and supporting from there?
2) Whilst your embouchure should be reasonably relaxed and not pinched, do make sure that you do not have air escaping at the sides.
3) Again, I don't know how it compares with the pipes, but on the clarinet you don't want to be making separate "puffs" at every note - you blow "through" tonguing if you see what I mean.
4) To develop tone are you practising long notes for a minute or two at the start of each practice session?
Hope this helps.
Vanessa.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ajc
Date: 2008-07-28 13:58
It could be the mouthpiece or the reed. I know when I try to play on a reed that's too hard I get that fuzzy sound too. I'm pretty sure that most people do. So I would suggest since you are just beginning the clarinet that you should probably downgrade to a size 2 reed for now. As you get more experienced your embouchure will become stronger and playing on harder reeds will be no problem! And I don't know what kind of mouthpiece you are using currently, but I would suggest trying a Vandoren 5RV Lyre. When I first started clarinet this was the mouthpiece that my instructor wanted me to start out on and it has done wonders for me. Ask your instructor about this mouthpiece.
Well, good luck in your pursuit of learning the clarinet! You are going to have a lot of fun!
-ajc
p.s. Make sure you NEVER bite to compensate for the hardness of a reed. That's a common response to a reed that's too hard and that is a big NO NO.
Post Edited (2008-07-28 14:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: autumnsilence
Date: 2008-07-28 15:11
hi, I think i have encountered a similar problem to this one but my solution was a little different then what has been suggested so ill pitch in my two cents. From what someone said, it might be that you are playing a wider range of notes than most people can/do at that point of being a beginner but even though i know it might affect it i dont think its that major or a problem. When I first learned i didnt get to sit down with a teacher and have them 'teach me' the intstrument. They simply gave me a clarinet and a lesson book and said 'here you go' all while expecting me to play in everyday band as well. (of course this was middle school,) but they Similarly do the same thing in high school especially if it is your second instrument. (which is dumb in my opinion...)
Anyway, Yes developing an emboucher is definiately a huge part of playing. I randomly pick up new instruments all the time out of boredom and interest in music but the emboucher is always the thing that takes me the longest to learn right.
Im sure ihad a very breathy tone at first, but i noticed t much more this past school year when i had a much more keen ear when it came to band/tuning purposes and such. But the way i fixed my problem was different from what a few people above said.
Most people suggested downgrading your reed, and yes i do agree a 2.5 is quite soft but i dont think its that much of a problem if you otherwise have been playing sucsessfully for months. My problem is that whenever i play middle Bb-C... any notes with the left hand but without the octave key, i get the same breathy tone and it sounds like i possibly have an air leak but i noticed a few things that ususaly make it go away.
1. Get a new reed. Not a different thickness than you use unless you are ready to upgreade, just a new one. Seems to be my indicator that the one im using is getting old.
2. Sometimes having the mouth piece being too 'wet' can cause that problem occasionally in my expirience..
3. Your emboucher still needs a little improvement in some area.
4. you have an air leak of some kind. This is what my band teacher suggested when i told them about my problem with a breathy tone in only a selected range of notes, and it bothers me because i can always hear how much crappier my tone is when i play by myself but hopefully getting a new, instrument will solve this problem.. (my current one Selmer 300 i think)..
Hope this was helpful to you,
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vetkoek
Date: 2008-07-28 18:10
Thanks for the further insights, I have now gone out and bought a Vandoren 2 reed (I wanted to try this before upgrading the mouthpiece, although I will do that shortly! Most definitely the lyre as suggested.). I have found that the combination of the softer, better quality reed and the fact that I have now started to concentrate more on the sides of my mouth (as opposed to only considering the middle of the lips!) I have a much better tone now. I conciously bring the sides of my mouth in towards the mouthpiece and as long as I retain concentration I seem to be on a much better track! I am also working very hard on long, continuous notes.
I am also slightly concerned with my tutor. I don't have the experience to know what a good clarinet teacher is, but there are a few alarm bells ringing. Now I feel awful thinking this, but I figure that my playing is the most important thing. My teacher has told me to bite down strongly on the mouthpiece and this appears contrary to the general consensus amongst this board's members. Also, I have asked him on numerous occasions about tonguing and he is telling me that it is unimportant for now. Is he right in saying this? I understand it's an important part, so I have been trying to work it out myself as opposed to using my throat to differentiate the notes which is what I initially did. I just can't think of a way to approach this with my instructor without him thinking I am double-guessing him.
Nessiel, as for the pipes it is really a case of just blowing for as long as you can and, when needed, taking a breath and squeezing on the bag (although I personally am always squeezing slightly as I blow). It is therefore unimportant how one blows into the bagpipes so it really hasn't helped me there at all! As it's constant note (ie. no tonguing involved) we use grace notes and other embellishments to separate the notes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: liyza
Date: 2008-07-29 15:49
Although there are many factors in that 'breathy' sound. This is what I was taught:
take your reed and soak it for a few minutes in luke warm water.
Then wipe off extra water and take a plain white piece of printing paper on a hard, solid surface and place the reed on top of it.
Use your fingers to secure the reed while pressing it onto the paper and moving it in a small circular motion. Do this for about 30 seconds and flip it over and do it again. On the top side of the reed your need to rotate the curve of the reed to get the whole reed.
This smooths out the sound of the reed. I notice that on my pianissimo notes the sound is VERY clear and concise. If it isn't as clear of a sound that you want, just do it again. I also use Vandoren V12 reeds and those are wonderful.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-07-29 16:59
"My teacher has told me to bite down strongly on the mouthpiece"
No. This is simply wrong. Ideally, don't bite at all. In practice, bite as little as you can. Deliberately biting is a really bad idea.
How is your intonation? Did you try playing double-lip as I suggested earlier?
"tonguing ... is unimportant for now"
It's less important than several other things. But tongue correctly, or don't tongue at all. Don't get into the habit of tonguing incorrectly.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: russjm
Date: 2008-08-05 15:46
I'm a total beginner at this, but I actually like the breathy sound I get. Is it a bad thing? I love the breathy sound someone like Chet Baker gets from his trumpet, that kind of sleazy jazz club at 3 in the morning kind of sound.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-05 16:01
If you like a breathy sound and if it suits the kind of music you like playing, then there's no reason to change.
But if you plan to play in concert bands or orchestras, you should really aim for a clear sound as having a breathy or unfocussed sound could hold you back.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
