 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinetboy***
Date: 2008-07-25 23:43
Hi, I just wanted to know which one of these wood clarinets would be the best choice for a student wanting to upgrade. For intermediate clarinets, Leblanc Noblet 45 (diamond emblem),Selmer Signet Soloist (Elkhart,Indiana version),Selmer Signet Special,Selmer CL200 USA,Leblanc Rapsodie,or Evette & Shaeffer model. For professional clarinets, which would be better, Conn 444N or Selmer Paris Series 10? I am a student that is going into the eighth grade and currently I play a Jupiter Capital Edition ABS resin clarinet. I've posted before here asking what clarinet I should buy but everyone said just to buy a mouthpiece. I really want to upgrade to a better clarinet even though I don't need to because I feel that my Jupiter is restricting me from playing too well. My Jupiter clarinet has quite a few issues. Some include a lot of sharp notes,a stuffy B flat,slightly sluggish keywork,and maybe some more that I don't know about. I mean, it's not a bad clarinet since I actually sound better than my classmate who plays a Yamaha 250. Now, I don't really need a pro clarinet because no matter how much I save, my parents would never spend that much money on an instrument and plus I'm not that rich at all. Even if I had my clarinet adjusted it would probably cost about the same money as it would be to pay for a vintage intermediate clarinet. I could always just get a Clark Fobes Nova mouthpiece, Gonzalez FOF reeds, and a Muncy Synthetic Barrel but I guess it's because I just want a new clarinet. Any ideas that would help? Anyway, thanks for reading.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2008-07-26 00:13
My intermediate clarinet was a Noblet and I loved it.
(Of course, that was back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the first reed instrument was a blade of grass.)
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Author: Jack Stewart
Date: 2008-07-26 01:17
If you can afford it, get an R13. If not, an E11 will do nicely. Those are both Buffet. Also, Buffet mouthpieces (the one that comes with the horn) aren't all that great, so I'd buy new one. I played on a Vandoren 5RV Lyre for awhile, and it was good, but you couldn't really change much with volume and tone. I liked it but recently switched to a (Vandoren) M13. I have yet to master it, but it seems to be alot 'looser'. I can sound good at a soft volume and a loud volume, and change the tone, and bend the pitch wherever I need it to go. Although, it doesn't seem to be as good with Altissimo notes.
Hope I helped,
Jack Stewart
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-07-26 01:34
Bring them over, and we'll invite a bunch of players over and test them.
Bob Phillips
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-07-26 02:40
Why wood? Just because a clarinet is made of wood doesn't necessarily make it better. It's acoustical design is more important.
Consider the Lyrique by Tom Ridenour among your options. Ridenour is highly regarded as a top acoustician when it comes to clarinets. The tuning of his instruments is top-notch. Because his instruments are made of hard rubber, they cost less than wood. I believe they sound at least as good as wood (better to me, but that's just one humble opinion). I formerly played a Buffet R13, for what that's worth.
I'm not paid by Ridenour to say this, I just think it's a worthy cosideration along with the other fine instruments that others here may mention. If you google his name, you'll find his website.
Joe W.
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Author: Clarinetboy***
Date: 2008-07-26 03:47
feadog, I know that Tom Ridenour's clarinets have a good reputation but, they're so good that almost none of them show up used for sell on the auction site or pawn shops. I cannot afford to buy new because 1)No matter how much I save money, I'll never be able to afford an R13 or a lyrique. 2)I'll probably only be able to afford a new clarinet if I do a "rent to own" type of deal, which is still bad since I'd have to do like a $400 down payment and pay $65 a month. I really appreciate all of everyone's advice but you guys shouldn't push it by asking if I can afford an R13. Even getting an E11 will be a devastating financial sacrifice to my loving parents. Oh, and I cannot find any of Ridenour's clarinets used for cheap except for the 147. Anyway, thanks.
Post Edited (2008-07-28 02:05)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-07-26 04:14
i would suggest you consult with a good local private teacher to assist you in upgrading.
fwiw, a brand new e11 can be had locally for $799 plus sales tax. and that includes a vandoren mouthpiece.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2008-07-26 04:22
As a parent of two teenagers, let me give you an idea of where your "cheap parents" are coming from.
Have you:
Approached them about the idea of a new clarinet when they were busy, tired, or stressed out?
Whined about needing a new clarinet? (Be honest!)
Showed them (by practicing everyday) how dedicated you are to the clarinet?
Asked your teacher or band director to talk with your parents about your need for a better clarinet?
Gotten or offered to get a job to help pay for a new clarinet?
Parents, in general, are more open to spending money on expensive things their children want if they feel it is a good investment. If a parent doesn't see his child acting responsibly or taking a genuine interest in an activity, that parent will probably be less likely shell out for new equipment.
I cannot stress enough the importance of not being whiney (I'm not saying you are, though) and the importance of sitting down and having a respectful talk with your parents when they are in a good, receptive mood.
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-07-26 04:37
I agree with Claire...approach your parents differently. I'm not a parent, but I am a school music teacher; I don't have children, but I teach lots of them! Speak to your parents calmly and rationally about needing a new instrument, and be willing to help acquire the funds for one if that's what's necessary. Also be aware that finding a used instrument for a really good price might not be the end of your spending; it can take a couple hundred dollars to get a used instrument in good playing shape.
My parents always knew I loved music, and playing the clarinet in school was one of the highlights of my childhood. They couldn't afford to get me a really good instrument until I was a junior in high school. I was one out of four children, and sometimes other things just had to come first. I was never upset that they couldn't make the purchase sooner, and I'll always be grateful for their support.
Joe W.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-07-26 05:33
I have some limited experience with many of the clarinets you have listed so I'm going to go out on a limb and tell you what I think. The fact that you've asked the Board which one is best suggests that you probably don't have enough experience to evaluate the instruments on your own, either for quality or condition. Also, I think, your judgment may be clouded by your lust for a new instrument -- and yes, I'm detecting lust from your comments. I think buying one on your own would be a VERY risky proposition. And I definitely think you don't have enough experience to be dealing with eBay. You might get lucky and get a good clarinet but I think there's a good chance you might wind up throwing your money away. Having a teacher who is a good clarinetist help you buy locally would be a VERY good idea. To paraphrase an old saying: "Buy in haste, repent at leisure." (Actually, a teacher may know of a good instrument that's available that you aren't aware of.)
I also think that, in your case, of the instruments you have listed, the determining factor might be (and perhaps should be) the one that is in the best condition. The one that is playable without significant repair work.
With those warnings, here are my impressions of the instruments you have listed. Be aware that, in most cases, they are based on a very small sample of the instruments -- in some cases one.
Intermediates:
I have a Noblet 45 like you describe. I think it is a well-made instrument. In good condition, I think one of these would serve you well.
I don't have first hand experience with the Selmer Signets and don't know much about them. I know a couple of people who play them (though I don't know whether they had the soloist or the special) and they think highly of them.
I overhauled a CL200 for a friend and, in the process, played it. I didn't like it. It didn't seem as solidly constructed as the other intermediates I have handled. I would not buy one. Others may have a different opinion.
Leblanc Rhapsodie is a much newer model than the others you have mentioned. I think it would be worth looking at if it hasn't been abused.
I have far more experience with Evette & Schaeffer clarinets than any of the other models you have listed. I own several and have reconditioned several. I would probably prefer a good one made in the 1960's or later, in good condition, to any of the other intermediates you've listed (and to a new E11). However, there are qualifications. If I were you, I would not consider an E&S unless it has a serial number around K12000 or higher. My recommendation would be to avoid any that do not have a K prefix on the serial number. They are too old and may not even have been made by Buffet (Vytas Krass has provided some compelling evidence that they were made by Malerne.) I would also avoid K-series instruments with a serial number below around K10000 even if it's marked "Master Model." I think it likely that these do not have a polycylindrical bore. From around K12000 on, however, I think the E&S is definitely worth looking at. (And anything above K12000 marked "Master Model" could be a real gem.) Between K10000 and K12000 is perhaps too close to call.
Professionals:
IMO, there is no contest (unless you are looking for a clarinet to play in a swing band and even then....). The Conn 444N is a considerably older large (cylindrical) bore instrument from a maker not that well known for its clarinets. I think the Selmer Series 10 would be a far better choice for someone in your situation. (While it may have been a professional model in its day, I think the Conn is more comparable to modern intermediate clarinets than to modern professional models. I'd rather have a good E&S or Noblet than a 444N.)
With the possible exception of the Rhapsodie and perhaps the CL200, all of the instruments you have listed are probably at least 20 years old, some are likely considerably older. That's a long time for normal wear and tear or for something serious to go wrong with them. Even though you may be able to buy them inexpensively (on eBay most of them would probably go for under $200, except for the E&S which may go for a little over $200, the Rhapsody, the Selmer Series 10 and, perhaps the Conn), they all are likely to need some significant (and potentially expensive) repair work. So again, the best choice for you may simply be the one in the best condition.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-07-26 05:46)
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-07-26 08:07
Watch out for cracks. See the postings under 'wood on newer R13s'.....
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-07-26 11:54
Another thing to beware of in used instruments is the "marriage." That's a clarinet made up of parts from different brands. Usually a clarinet that's a hybrid won't play in tune with itself. The used instrument market is full if these hybrids. Spotting them isn't always easy, since some brands don't have the brand name logo on every section, but make sure any logos and serial numbers you can find match up. Also make sure the style of the keys (the color of the metal and the contours) looks the same on the top and bottom sections. Then take a good hard look at the metal tenon bands, which should all be identical. I've spotted many a marriage by those tell-tale tenon bands.
The most common marriage I see is a replaced barrel, followed by a replaced bell. If it's a custom-made barrel or bell, easy to spot because it'll almost certainly be signed with pride, then no problem (probably), but if it's just a clarinet that's been cobbled together from the salvagable spare parts of damaged instruments, that's bad news. I spotted one of these in a local Falls Church auction earlier this week and I sure hope nobody here bought what at first glance seemed to be an early 20th century, collectible B-flat, Low Pitch Koehler made of exceptionally nice cocus wood. Alas: a modern, damaged Conn barrel and--here's another thing to check--a missing key. Once I spotted those, I didn't bother inspecting for cracks. Replacing original parts on an instrument that old is too expensive for me.
Bob Phillips wrote,
>>Bring them over, and we'll invite a bunch of players over and test them.>>
Yeah--that's the trouble with an Internet forum. Within a brand and model, the quality and condition can vary so much from one instrument to another that, although I agree with Jack Kissinger's assessments, I think he's wise to end with this advice:
>>So again, the best choice for you may simply be the one in the best condition.
>>
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2008-07-26 11:55)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-07-26 13:11
Ah, let's face it you're just suffering from the clarinet acquisition syndrome.....not that there's anything wrong with that.
Bob Draznik
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-07-26 14:32
why do your parents have to get it?
You can cut grass or babysit to save up for a clarinet.
In 8th grade I cut grass at $3 a lawn and saved enough to buy an r13 with it.
You can get something for $1500 if you have the drive.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2008-07-26 14:41
"Ah, let's face it you're just suffering from the clarinet acquisition syndrome.....not that there's anything wrong with that."
Bob, I nearly wet my pants laughing. I know the syndrome well!
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-07-26 15:03
You might consider the Andino by Rossi. I haven't played one, but I've heard some very good things about it. It is available in hard rubber (I think the wood one would be out of your price range, based on your comments). I think on the WWBW website it's described as "polyblend," not rubber. It's $475 from WWBW.
You know, the Ridenour 147's that you can find on eBay may not be all that bad, either. I've only had experience with the Arioso and Lyrique, but I've heard of many being impressed by the 147. At $50 on eBay plus the cost to get repadded if needed, one of those could be a real steal. I've honestly considered getting one as a backup.
Joe W.
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-07-26 15:04
David is right, too...you can find a way to make the $$$ if you really want to.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-07-26 20:45
I would reccomend if they are available in USA the Buffet E-13 clarinets. They are very close in quality to the R-13 and you will maybe not outgrow that clarinet if you will just be playing for fun later on.
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Author: Clarinetboy***
Date: 2008-07-26 22:46
OKAY, first of all I know a lot about the clarinets that I'm talking about because I've been researching for months on this huge clarinet board to find information like reliability,popularity,intonation, etc because I really feel that getting other stuff for my Jupiter won't help THAT much. I know what I'm talking about though so yeah. Right now, no one is letting me cut their grass and even if I did save money,it would only be enough to buy an R13 if I'm like 17 years old since my parents take away my hard earned cash if they need to. I know, I sound crazy and I sound pretty snobby,but I'm really not. I'm not suffering from clarinet syndrome either because I am grateful for the fact that I even have my own clarinet. It's just that I feel that my Jupiter restricting me from making the best music that I can. I have checked with a music store and they said there's nothing wrong with my Jupiter in terms of repair, faulty pads,etc...Oh, and the music store here is terrible, they have only Vandoren traditional reeds and Ricos plus they only have bad mouthpieces. They don't have any step up clarinets for sale and no rent to own clarinets. It looks like I'll have to look on Ebay. I actually found a couple of Noblet 45's and Evette and Shaeffers that are in outstanding condition. I also found a Rapsodie that no one was actually bidding on. I even found a Selmer Paris Series 10 that sold for $120 and it didn't need any repairs and no damage at all!!! Anyway, what I will probably do now is wait until my mom's paycheck and combine some of my cash with hers to buy either the Noblet 45,Evette and Shaeffer,Leblanc Rapsodie,or just buy a Vandoren M13 mouthpiece, Gonzalez FOF reeds, and a Muncy Synthetic barrel. Oh, and I actually saw a package deal at Muncy Winds that includes a Muncy Synthetic barrel,Clark Fobes Debut mouthpiece,and Olivieri reeds for just $69.95. But I think I'll just get that Noblet 45 or the Rapsodie I saw. So, what do you think I should do, get the Rapsodie from WWBW and arrange a payment plan or get it on Ebay? It looks like my best bet will be just to go with the Rapsodie on Ebay since no one is bidding on them and the one I found is under $110. Anyway, thanks for all of your help everyone and I'll post sometime to tell you guys if I got it. Thanks for everything, I appreciate the help!!
Post Edited (2008-07-26 22:52)
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-07-26 23:21
The best advice I can give you is to find all the models within your pricerange (generally sticking to Buffet, Leblanc, Yamaha, and Selmer) and trying as many instruments of each model as you can. You need to check for even-ness (not a word?) between each note and throughout registers. This even-ness should be in both intonation and resistance. You also want to find an instrument that is resonant and is easy to project.
The last thing you want to look for sounds cheesy, but it's true. My old teacher said essentially the same thing when I was trying out barrels for my A. Find an instrument that speaks to you. Find one that almost becomes a part of you when you play it. When you buy an instrument, you should get one that lets you think "this is the one" without having any doubts. When you get an instrument that costs $3000, you should feel like you bought it at a steal because it's so perfect for you (that's how I felt about my instruments, anyway. Especially my A).
Somewhat off topic, you can't really come out and say "this model of this brand is better than anything else". Individual instruments of the same model can vary greatly. Also, no one person is the exact same. Physically, some instruments might work better for one person while another brand works equally as well for someone else. The wisest thing I've ever heard anyone say on the subject was actually a fairly offhand remark. I had a few lessons with Dan Gilbert last year, and (having a close friend in the studio) I stuck around for a while. When we went back for her lesson that night, one of the master students happened to be trying out a couple barrels and was playing them in the studio to get Professor Gilbert's opinion. Prof. Gilbert invited us to come in and listen, and while he (the grad student) was packing up, my friend made an observation about how he plays on Leblanc instruments, asking him if he thought they were better than any other brand. All he really said was "they're better for me". It was probably the most simple way to put it I've ever heard.
Anyway, just find something that works for you that sits in your pricerange. That's really the gist of this post. (sorry it ended up being so long, I didn't mean for it to do so)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-07-27 02:38
I am curious as to how you even know that he clarinets wqhich sold on the auctions were in excellent condition and needed absolutely no adjustmnents or repairs. DId you inspoect them personally? If not, then you are gooing on what the seller said, which is not a reliable way to determine the actual quality of the instrument.
Also, you have mentioned that you have one local music soter, and they have no good mouthpieces. Yet you tell us that you will get an M13 eventually. Not that there is anything wrong with an M13... mydaughter has one and makes beautiful music with it on my old 1971 R13, but how do you know this mouthpiece is even remotely suited to your style of playing, the anatomy of your mouth, or any other facet of what makes you the musician you are? Mouthpiece selection is at least as critical as instrument selection. And even though you have heard the opinions of any number of excellent clarinetists and hobbyists here on this forum, what works for one person does not necessarily work for all others. I sincerely hope that you don't take everything you see on the Internet as Gospel!
If your parents are as dishonorable as you seem to believe, what makes you think they won't just sell any clarinet you buy, when the mood or need strikes them? Sorry, but your judgment on that manner rings a little suspect to me. Most parents I know, who have a kid who is serious enough about his/her music to want an upgraded instrument would be willing to work out a deal where they would assist you, or at least allow you to save up the resources to acquire your own instrument. Example: My daughter got my old R13 Bb, but the loaner A she had was absolute garbage, and she needed a better horn to compete at the higher level she was playing. So we made a deal... when she had 50% of the price of a new R13, we would auditrion clarinets with her and her teacher (a well-known symphony musician) and would pay the other half for her new instrument. It took more than a year of babysitting and giving beginners lessons to 5th graders, but she came up with the 50% we had agreed on. Last December, she became the proud owner of a new, silver-plated R13 from Walter Grabner.
So you know, I was in your position at your age, and saved up the money to get my own R13, too. That's the one my daughter is playing today. I felt much the same as you did, that my parents were too cheap too get me a real instrument. A few years later, I realized how little money we actually had, and how fortunate I was that they scrimped to make sure I had lessons and a few other essentials. That made the fact that I had to EARN my own clarinet even more important to me. I did, and still do, cherish that clarinet.
Additionally, you might want to reexamine your attitude toward your parents. I just buried my father a couple of months ago. Even though he knew that I loved him, I didn't get the chances I would have preferred to say thanks to him for all the non-monetary things he did give to me, including some of his musical talent and a love for playing an instrument. Maybe he couldn't afford to buy me my clarinets, but he was there, working two jobs, so I could have some of the essentails. Whether you believe it or not, an upgraded clarintet for an 8th grader is not always a matter of survival. It's nice to have, but you will go on living if you don't get it tomorrow. If you HAVE to have a newer horn, look at a used Ridenour TR 147. You can get one for about a C-note. (That's old-fart speak for $100).
One last thing... you have not mentioned a teacher anywhere in this discussion (unless I missed it!). If you are not even taking lessons, it might be a better investment to spend a few bucks a week, rather than a wad of cash all in one place, and get some very valuable instruction, which would make more sense at your current level of preparation. Money invested in proper instruction would be of greater value than getting an instrument or mouthpiece that might or might not cure your problems with the clarinet.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2008-07-27 02:46)
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Author: Clarinetboy***
Date: 2008-07-27 03:37
Oh my, did I really make myself sound like such a spoiled brat who doesn't love his parents for all they do for him? Well, of course I care about them and their love and compassion. I know perfectly well that they would buy a better clarinet for me if they had the money. They just don't have a good amount of money right now. Even if I want an R13 or a pro clarinet, I just can't get it right now even if I did work until I have enough when I'm older, all of that money will just go into helping my parents pay for bills,food,and college. I am realizing that I might be pushing my parents a little too hard because of my own little selfish desire but I didn't mean for it to go that way. I always think about my choices before I make them but sometimes you lose control of yourself for your desire to get something. Of course I don't always believe what sellers or what people say on the internet. I know the information could possibly be fake. But I've already talked with my band teacher and she told me about those clarinets and said that all of the ones I mentioned should be fine except for the Conn. My music store doesn't have a good selection of mouthpieces,reeds,or clarinets. I am looking on Ebay because that is the only place where I can get something I can afford without paying too much and of course I always look at what people think of the seller,I look at the pictures of the item carefully,and I do additional research if necessary. I even ask my friends about all of this stuff and they always tell me what they think and usually it's a positive answer. My mom and I shop on Ebay for a variety of things every now and then so of course I know what I'm doing. Anyway,I'll talk with my mom when she gets home tonight and I'll see what she thinks. Now,what I will probably get is either the Noblet 45,Leblanc Rapsodie,Evette and Shaeffer, or the M13 mouthpiece,Gonzalez FOF reeds,and Muncy synthetic barrel. Please don't take my words the wrong way,I'm really not a mean,snobby kid who only cares about his selfish desires. Anyway, thanks for the advice and I guess I'll just get what I can afford the most and see if that's the best thing for me.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2008-07-27 12:28
"Oh my, did I really make myself sound like such a spoiled brat who doesn't love his parents for all they do for him?"
--->Well, yes.
"My parents are so cheap that no matter how much I tell them $200-$600 is cheap for a clarinet they will not listen to me even though they actually spent $600 for a karaoke machine."
"Even getting an E11 will be a devastating financial sacrifice to my cheap parents."
--->Cheap Parenting 101. I'm not just a student. I'm also a teacher.
"Please don't take my words the wrong way,I'm really not a mean,snobby kid who only cares about his selfish desires."
--->No worries. You've indicated how old you are. I was a teenager once. Now that I have teenagers of my own and when I reflect on my past, I understand that awareness of "the bigger picture" is a few years hence. Heck, some adults haven't even reached that stage yet!
"I guess I'll just get what I can afford the most and see if that's the best thing for me."
There you go.
Someone pointed out getting a good clarinet teacher. I soundly second that! For affordable teachers, check out your local music store or a nearby college. (When I was a college student, I taught a high school student...and she became a clarinet major when she got to college!)
I wish you success.
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-28 10:24
Find yourself a Leblanc that you can afford: a Rapsodie, Symphony or a step-up get an LL. I have seen several of these fantastic horns go for less that $500, be patient. When purchasing from anyone online make sure you ask for an examination period (3 days ). Keep in mind if you decide not to purchase or ask for a refund you'll have to ship it back at your cost, plus insurance. None the less, asking for an examination period you can be sure what is being represented is correct.
All of these are fine horns and you'll be amazed how quickly your skills will improve.
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
Post Edited (2008-07-28 10:29)
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2008-08-01 16:23
"While it may have been a professional model in its day, I think the Conn is more comparable to modern intermediate clarinets than to modern professional models. I'd rather have a good E&S or Noblet than a 444N."
My 444N has tons more subtlety, depth and character than any 'intermediate' clarinet I've ever played.
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