The Clarinet BBoard

Re: clarinet self restoration help

Author: clarnibass  Date:   2008-07-16 06:00 Basically I agree with Gordon, but, trying your first repair can be fun and you can learn a lot. You might even manage to do a reasonable job (though if you keep practicing you will realize your first job wasn't as good as you thought ) I did my first repad/recork with my home stove, a set of pads, a stick of shellac, and some cork. It was a plastic Vito Eb. You clarinet sounds in bad condition but who knows. If this is interesting for you then I can't see why not try. I have the book Gordon recommended and it's mostly very good and can really help you. Though even in its 550+ pages it doesn't have everything. 1. Make sure for each key it is not not a minor 2. You could but probably unecessary. Cleaning might get rid of that anyway. 3. I really like some of the products from the Doctor (like the cork grease and bore oil) and really don't like some products like the wood cleaner which I think is useless and has no advantage ovr regular soap and water. Oiling is probably fine and waxing IMO unecessary. But anything you do the most important is to notice you are not doing it wrong and ruin something. 4. Theoretically there shouldn't be any problem with that. 5. The book will have a lot of information about this. You can order a pad set and then realize some pads might not fit exactly, and then order more pads if you need. Some pads are harder to know exactly what you need (ones with shoulders). Even with two different models of pads from the same maker which I have usually need 0.5mm difference depending on which one I use. You can clean the bore with a pipe brush while you are washing the clarinet. But like Gordon said, in each of these things there are many more details that possibly need to be repaired for others repairs to work, and many things that can go wrong. OTOH, my Vito Eb still has that first repad and it plays not bad at all.

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Re: clarinet self restoration help

Author: Jack Kissinger  Date:   2008-07-16 19:00 Disclaimer. (As will be obvious to all the professional repair techs that visit this board), I am not a professional repair tech. I have, however, reconditioned at least a couple of dozen clarinets, a saxophone and even an oboe for my own or my friends' use (and they are still friends!), resale or for a local school district that has an extremely limited budget. OK, let's face it. You're not going to end up with an instrument that looks like it's been to the Brannens or Gordon or Chris P or .... But, in my experience, you can learn a lot about the basics right here: http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Care/index.html and only need a 500-page book if you run into an unusual problem. Following the instructions on cleaning, pad replacement and cork replacement may or may not make your instrument "like new" but, IMO, unless you have some structural damage (cracks, damaged tone holes, bent/broken keys), you can probably make the instrument quite serviceable (and you can always take it to a tech afterwards for fine tuning -- some of the more cynical techs on the Board may suggest that it will cost you more to do this than if you had taken the instrument to them in the first place but, if you are careful, and follow the dictum, "first do no harm" I think you will be OK.) I will just add a couple of comments to those in the articles at the above link: 1. You will save yourself a lot of grief later if you have some system for keeping the screws and rods organized when you strip the keys. Ferree tools sells a small board with pictures of each key and holes by each picture to put the appropriate screw(s)/rod in to keep them organized for reassembly. 2. If a clarinet is really dirty (and I've had some in worse shape than yours appears to be), my first step (after removing the keys) is to wash it with Murphy's Oil Soap. I use a soft toothbrush on the outside to loosen dirt and a soft (small) bottle brush that fits the smaller toneholes to clean the bore and tone holes. After washing, I dry the instrument with a soft towel and bore swab. Then I oil it inside and out. Currently, I use the Doctor's bore oil but I have used almond oil and pure lemon oil with good success. If the instrument is bad enough that it needs a wash, I usually give the wood daily applications of oil for about a week, storing it in a sealed tupperware-type container between applications. I wouldn't use a power tool on the bore. (Remember, "first do no harm.") I think you'll find you don't really need it. Also, I wouldn't sand the surface. Again, I don't think you'll need it. Wax is fine, IMO, but optional. At the risk of attracting flames, in one or two cases, I've actually used a padding finish (Qualisole) which was recommended by a good repair tech. It's my understanding from him that, at least in the past, some manufacturers did this with new instruments. I found it to be probably more trouble than it was worth. 3. When you have the keys off, you can polish them if you like. I have been happy with the results I've gotten using Flitz. Simichrome also works well but, at least where I am, has been difficult to find. I don't like Brasso (too abrasive) but others do. I don't repair enough instruments to have made investment in a buffing wheel worthwhile. I do the polishing by hand using an old T-shirt and then wash the keys to remove any residue. Even if you don't polish the keys, I recommend you clean out the gunk that has accumulated in their tubes. I push small pieces of cotton dipped in light machine oil through with a paper clip until a dry piece goes through clean. Put a small amount of key oil on each rod/screw when you reassemble the instrument. 4. Tools: Spring-hook. (I'm told that a small crochet hook also works well.) Small-headed screwdriver. (The cheap sets of small screwdrivers you find in hardware stores fit but generally don't last. If you're only going to do one clarinet, they may be adequate but a good one that you can use for future maintenance shouldn't break the bank and is, IMO, a good investment.) Ruler with hard edge. (For measuring and cutting cork. Metal works best.) Pliers (To help remove rods. Not absolutely necessary but can be helpful. Needle-nose work best, IMO.) Exacto knife. (Useful for cutting cork and glue if you use a glue stick.) Pad slick. (For leveling pads. Actually, you might be able to use the blade of the Exacto knife in a pinch.) Heat-source for melting glue in pad cups. (If you are not going to do this kind of work regularly, a benzine (cigarette) lighter will probably suffice. Key-clamps. (A couple to hold keys closed for a short time after you've installed pads to help the pads seat better. Cork wedges (remember that wine cork?) can also work.) 5. Miscellaneous supplies. Q-tips. (For cleaning/oiling inside tone-holes. Also, I use them with Flitz to clean the old glue out of pad cups. They can also provide the cotton for cleaning key tubes.) Cotton balls or pieces cut from an old T-shirt. (To apply oil inside the bore but you need something to push/pull whatever you use through the joints -- a flute cleaning rod works. I actually fashioned a "tool" from a coat-hanger that I used for awhile. The Doctor sells a very nice device. That's what I'd recommend.) Contact cement for tenon corks and key and bumper corks. (I use DAP, available at hardware stores. At least a few key/bumper corks will almost certainly have to be replaced. From your description of your clarinet, some will be worn and others will likely fall off during key cleaning/polishing even if you don't want them to. Generally, I tend to replace most of them as a matter of course, anyway -- and all of them if the clarinet is for someone else.) Sheet cork. (The directions for replacing tenon corks will give a recommendation on the proper size for tenons. Bumper corks tend to be very thin but can vary, as can key corks. For, the first couple of clarinets I worked on, I actually made what I needed from wine corks (new white wine works better than old red wine. If you order from one of the supply places like Ferree's Tools or Votaw, you'll wind up buying a lot more than you need. If you ask nicely, the repair tech who's working on your R13 might be willing to give you some scraps that you can use for key and bumper corks and the he (or a music store) might be willing to sell you enough for your tenons (but buy enough to allow you to mess up a couple of times.) Sandpaper. (To sand corks to fit.) Glue to install pads. (Depending on the pads you use, you may or may not need glue. Many people recommend shellac. I find it somewhat messy so I prefer the glue sticks used with glue guns. Something to test whether pads are properly seated. (I find pieces cut from an old audio cassette tape work extremely well for this purpose.) 3-in-1 sewing machine oil. (Less expensive than key oil for cleaning rods, screws and key tubes. Key oil also works, however.) Key oil. (To lubricate keys when you reassemble the instrument -- and periodically with use.) Bore oil. (I like the Doctor's. Others prefer Naylor's. I've never tried that. You can find considerable discussion about which oils are good and which are not so good in the Bulletin Board archives.) Flitz, Simichrome, etc. to polish keys. (Optional.) 6. Pads. Lots of discussion on the Bulletin Board of which pads to use. For your project, at the risk of attracting more flames from some quarters, I would recommend Valentino "Greenback" pads (now distributed by RICO). They are far easier to install than bladder or cork pads, not outrageously expensive (a set for a Buffet soprano will probably run around $20, compared to around $10 for a set of bladder pads), they are forgiving of (very) minor imperfections in a tone hole, and they last forever. Actually, I've put them on all the clarinets that I've repadded for my own use and some very good repair techs (e.g., Morrie Bakun) use them. But search the Board and read the pros and cons of the various types. With Valentinos, you can either "float" them in with glue or "press apply" them. If you take the latter approach, you may sometimes have to use a shim inside the cup to make them level to the tone hole. I find that self-adhesive label paper works well for this purpose. While I put cork pads in my upper joints, I've had Valentinos in my soprano clarinets for several years now. Even though I have "press applied them," I can only remember one ever falling out. As clarnibass says, a project like this can be a lot of fun. There will likely be occasional frustrating times (e.g., when you go to reassemble the right-hand cluster keys, or a pad simply refuses to seal). Just remember to be patient and honest with yourself about which problems you can solve and which ones you need help with (and be willing to ask for help). Also, always remember, "first do no harm" and keep asking yourself, "Is what I'm about to do easily reversible?" You can learn a lot about how a clarinet works and how to maintain it to keep it in good working order. And the knowledge you gain can come in handy if a tenon cork falls off the day of a concert or a pad falls out, etc. and you don't have the luxury of waiting a week (or six) for a local tech to fix it. I may have forgotten a tool or supply or two and, if so, I hope others will add to the list. Also, I'm sure some folks will disagree with some of my choices of materials and methods. All I can say is that what I've described above has worked for me even though it may not always have been the most efficient approach. I hope others (particularly who know more than I) will comment/critique what I've said. I'm happy to learn. Oh, one other thing. I can't personally recommend the Music Medic kit. It may have most of the things you'll need (though you'll need more pads) but some of those things you will already have around the house (Q-tips, sandpaper, exacto knife, "high quality butane torch" (aka "butane lighter")) or you'll never want/need (e.g., I have a leak light, which may be the most expensive item in the kit and I've never found it effective on a clarinet -- the "suck test" and "blow test" work much better for me). I think the kit's too pricey. You should be able to assemble most of the things you specifically need at a local hardware store or hobby shop and order the rest individually from a supplier at less cost. If you order a couple of tools along with a set of pads, you probably won't incur much additional shipping cost. Your local music store may even have what you need. Best regards, jnk

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Re: clarinet self restoration help

Author: clarnibass  Date:   2008-07-17 07:23 >> I hope others (particularly who know more than I) will >> comment/critique what I've said. I'm happy to learn. OK, I can try. There are even many more details that are possible to add other than what I write here but it's just impossible to write everything. 1. I like this and I made my own using a photo of a screw board glued to a piece of wood and I drilled the holes. Since some instruments are different you need a few extras plus you can decide the size/depth of the holes yourself better (i.e. different for pivot and rod screws). For pivot screws I simply remember on my board that the one on the left is always the top one. It's sometimes very important to make sure you don't mix up the pivot screws so it's better to always make sure you don't. 2. Sometimes scrubing (and maybe the type of soap matters too) a logo can come off from cleaning, so maybe better not to scrub the logo area or put tape on it (if it has any of the logo left). I really like the Doctor's bore oil too. I swear it smells like a combination of marzipan and soap (I really like the smell)! I don't think daily application is necessary when oiling. What I do is put a small layer of oil and then wait for it to soak and dry. If after a while (could be from one day to a few days) it doesn't soak and dry completely I wipe the extra and that's it. I've never found any more than that is needed. 3. What you use to polish depends on what material or plating the keys have. Nickel plated is sometimes hard (or even impossible) to polish completely without buffing. For silver plating I like Hagerdy polish but other things are probably fine. Just don't use something too abbrassive for silver. I think E11 is silver plated now but not sure about old ones. The amount of instruments someone repairs doesn't necessarily have to do with the need (or not) of a buffing machine. For example locally it's rare for people to want their keys polished. 4. Tools: - I have expensive screwdrivers, and while some of those are really excellent, some broke much sooner than a set of cheap ones from a hardware store, so these are most likely good enough (unless for example you have a stuck screw which is mostly impossible to remove with small screwdriver and sometimes not possible with any screwdriver). - For several reasons I prefer small flat nose pliers for removing the rod screws instead of needle nose pliers. - This might be obvious, but when cutting with a knife don't put fingers in the path of the knife! - The flame from a cigarette lighter sometimes turns some metals to black so maybe it's better not to use that. An alcohol lamp or gas torch don't have this problem. I have a couple of good torches but still use the alcohol lamp 90% of the time for pads. - Key clamps are IMO not really necessary. Actually I've never used them. Not that there is necessary a problem with using them, but IMO just holding the key closed for a bit (a few seconds) is best. I would avoid clamps that are too strong. - With contact glue there are good types and bad. I understand from other repairers that water based is not good (I've tried some bad ones but never noticed if they were water based). I'd also avoid ones that take too long to dry (too long = more than very few minutes at most, usually less). - Music Medic has smaller sheets of cork, and I think free shipping inside USA. If you change tenon corks you need to know the thickness. You can check how the old tenon corks feel and measure their thickness (which is probably less than what it used to be). Remember that if it's too thin you need to redo it, but too thick you can always sand more. For key corks there are better materials than cork. I personally like composite cork (pretty much the same thing is sold by several places under different names like tech cork, rubber cork, gumi cork) and synthetic felt. These materials are much harder to sand than regular cork. For a first repair I would probably recommend just natural cork. - Sand paper is ok for that but I wouldn't just use it just as it is, but instead glue it to something rigid, or you will probably scratch parts you don't want to. For tenon corks I recommend sanding the edges before gluing the cork, then after you glued it you only need to sand where there is almost no chance of accidently sanding the body. - I like the glue pellets sold by Music Medic. - Some oils are not good for keys because they leave gooy stuff inside the keys and create friction. I understand the 3-in-1 oil does that. So if you use that for cleaning, make sure you also clean all the oil after that before putting good key oil and assembling the key back. I agree with what Jack wrote about the Music Medic repair kit. It has too much of things you don't need, and not enough things you need. >> and only need a 500-page book if you run into an unusual problem. Yes but the thing is, most of the time there is an unusual problem! Makes sense?! Nitai

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Re: clarinet self restoration help

Author: skygardener  Date:   2008-07-18 00:00 "In terms of gluing pads my options are shellac and hot glue? wouldn't hot glue easily seperate itself from the pad cup?" Some repair techs of some very famous people use hot glue. It will not separate; in fact, it sticks probably better than shellac. As far as the repair book, one can never know too much, but can easily know too little. Also, there are no "instrument specific" repair books that I have ever heard of. Keep in mind that you don't have to read all 500 pages.

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