 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: theclarinetguy
Date: 2008-02-01 20:39
Hi everybody, I was wondering what everybody does when they get nervous during a solo recital or during a big solo moment during an orchestral piece. I have my junior recital coming up and I know I will be shaking in my shoes onstage.
Micheal
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-02-01 21:39
Do a search here on beta blockers. Everyone uses them before recitals. Your teacher probably has some, as do your fellow students. Your doctor will prescribe them if you say that you have an important recital coming up and suffer from stage fright.
If you can, get one of the newer ones, such as Toprol, which have fewer side effects than the older ones. The likelihood of harm from taking a blocker once is negligible.
Ken Shaw
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Author: srattle
Date: 2008-02-01 22:01
Hi,
Sorry to Ken Shaw, but I think that is immensely bad advice. . .
Perhaps some people use beta blockers, but to immediately go to drugs to solve, or even help a problem that we battle with every day of our lives is really strange.
Micheal, there are a number of things that you can do to prepare yourself for being onstage.
You can try to put yourself in the mental position of being in that concert once every day, and running your program. It depends on how you get nervous. If your fingers and body shake, or you're out of breath on stage, you can try running up and down stairs a couple times before your 'run through'
You can also try to play your program for as many people as you can, and as often as you can before the recital.
You might also consider learning some yoga, especially relaxation yoga. Especially for the long term, if you get nervous on stage, this can help a lot.
Nerves are all part of performing. Everyone has them, and often the people who don't. . .well, you hear it in the playing, not always for the best. Nerves can be turned into adrenaline with the right frame of mind, and this is an amazing thing while on stage to have. Try to minimize the nerves to the point that you can really have fun on stage, but I really would advise against Beta Blockers.
I know people who have taken Beta Blockers (perhaps too many) before big recitals, and now only the recording is there as memory, because they have and had no idea what was going on on stage.
Good luck with your recital, and remember most importantly to enjoy playing, that is the secret to any performance
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-02-01 22:04
Use the nerves to help your playing, there is no need to use drugs. A moment i recall was playing Dances of Galanta. The piece opened the concert and the concert was the first of a very popular festival in North London. I was quite nervous before the first entry (an Ab) but I was enjoying the music and the amazing playing of the orchestra that I used the nerves to enhance the cadenza and following solo. The conductor later hugged me after the concert and said they had never heard that with so much freedom (i think the conductor was partly to blame for that, they just let you play without enforcing there own views on how to play it). That has helped me ever since in auditions.
What i'm saying is don't worry, prepare yourself well and have fun. At the end of the day music is fun.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2008-02-01 22:42
What has helped me the most in many different ways was reading The Inner Game Of Music.
Good luck...
Jim
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-02-01 23:50
"Do a search here on beta blockers. Everyone uses them before recitals. Your teacher probably has some, as do your fellow students."
That is a very untrue and absurd statement to make Ken.
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Author: MattBowmanSmith
Date: 2008-02-02 00:47
Why get nervous? I recently had a lecture with Leonard Slatkin, and he asked the group who gets nervous. Everyone in the audience - except one person - raised there hands. He then asked the one audience member who didnt raise his hand, why he doesn’t get nervous; his reply was “why get nervous? It’s one less thing to worry about.”
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-02-02 01:10
Know the music, know what you want to do with the music, and know how you personally usually play it. If you're just trying to reiterate what a recording did, or play it exact to the page without adding anything personal or musical to it, or have unrealistic expectations/assumptions of how you play, you'll clam up every time it doesn't go exactly how you envision.
Also, be an active participant in playing your instrument. I only discovered in recent years that most of my performing as a soloist or with "big solo parts" was a sort of out-of-body experience where I was playing by memory, "willing" and "hoping" myself to play it like I want, but never actually paying any attention to actually DOING it. I would get upset over a missed passage, even as I watched it go by without thinking about what I had to do in order to play it like I wanted. After the performance, I would think "what went wrong??" and never even imagined that the answer was "If I don't know what went wrong, I obviously wasn't involved in doing it."
If you have something you want to convey, and are actively involved in making it happen, there's far less opportunity for you to get nervous. Nerves, for me, are an indicator that I'm doing it wrong.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: swkeess
Date: 2008-02-02 03:53
I agree absolutely with Alex's advice. Envision what you want to express with your performance and run it through your mind as you will perform it, after getting the mechanics down to your satisfaction. I used to suffer quite a bit from performance anxiety: sweaty palms, shaking knees, shortness of breath, etc. However, after five years of performing in small ensembles and pretending at every concert that the audience is not really there but it's only another practice, I've learned to control my nervousness enough to put forth my best effort and to forgive myself for errors enough that I can complete a concert without falling completely apart. I know that a solo recital is much more nerve-wracking than playing in an ensemble, but I do believe that the basic premise is the same.
Susan Keess
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-02-02 04:11
I used to be very nerves and could barely play at concerts. I still am a little nerves, which I think is good, but I solve the problem pretty much. I think what really stopped the problem was when I realized what music I want to play. From the moment I started playing the music I want, for both musical and non-musical reasons, then the nerves really calmed down.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-02-02 04:12
Well to come to Ken's defense, as much as some try all these techniques they still panic.
I agree that beta blockers shouldn't be used as a first resort until all the other options have been faithfully tried for several years. Especially younger ones shouldn't rely on these things. I feel that it's better to expose oneself to many playing opportunities as possible, even creating excuses to play in front of extended family and friends and as many recitals as possible to get used to the experience, using the techniques offered on this Board.
But there are cases of well experienced players where there's a choice between either finally giving up performance altogether or taking the beta blockers. Those people shouldn't be criticized. You really don't know what's going on inside a person unless you've been there yourself.
And BTW, bananas don't do a thing for me - maybe for someone else though.
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2008-02-02 04:27
You should NOT immediately resolve to use Beta Blockers as a way to play your recital. If you are prepared to the point where you can do it in your sleep, then you have no reason to get nervous. And truly, if you know the music that well, you won't miss. It's that simple. Just practice it till you have no doubt in your mind that it will be there when you need it. Finally, when you go in for the recital, just tell yourself that you are going to do it, and just remember, in Yehuda Gilad's words, "When you are on stage, everything leaves you EXCEPT your preparation."
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-02-02 07:17
Over many years of reading the Bulletin board I have always enjoyed and admired Ken's posts. This is the first time that I strongly disagree with what he wrote.
Ken- what were you thinking giving advice like that to a young person that you don't even know?
"Everyone uses them before recitals."
I don't. Last year I played concertos in major concert halls all over Europe and I've never had to use Beta Blockers. There are other ways to deal with nerves. Ways which, once learnt will boost your self confidence in your abilities and self control. Psychologically, I believe it is much more beneficial and powerful to be able to deal with nerves on your own rather than having to rely on drugs.
To start with I would recommend books by Don Greene, eg. "Performance Success".
Michael- please feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss this personally.
rpickup@freesurf.ch
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-02-02 14:34
I knew my posting would bring protests, but I still think I'm right. When 75% of professional musicians use beta blockers, http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=262468&t=262132. simply protesting against "artificial" solutions rings hollow.
There have been many strings here on performance anxiety. Invariably, there has been a bunch of messages (some from me) urging relaxation, mental imaging, yoga, etc. and eventually a suggestion that if all else fails, a beta blocker might be helpful. I wanted to short-cut that and get to the real point. When your living depends on playing your best, you do what works.
I used to work with a fellow who hated to use a calculator, saying that depending on one weakened his ability to do math with a pencil and paper. He was great at figuring out how to divide the check at lunch, but even he used a spreadsheet where he was doing business analysis.
Of course a spreadsheet is not medication, but any side effects of beta blockers come from continued use, not a single pill. I've been on a beta blocker for several years for a condition unrelated to performance nerves, and without harm. As an incidental effect, my musical performances have improved dramatically.
Before I used the beta blocker, I applied for a job that had a typing test. I got nervous, and my right hand jumped around so badly that I couldn't use it, costing me the job. One pill would have let me show what I could easily do on the job.
Try acupuncture or hypnosis before surgery if you like. I'm going directly to anesthesia.
Ken Shaw
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-02-02 20:11
Imagining the audience isn't there, in the long run, I think may be counterproductive, especially if the audience at some time becomes large or noticeable enough that you can't block them out.
I think a vastly important thing to realize is that the audience (save, perhaps, for a couple scattered vindictive types) wants to hear the music played well. They've dedicated multiple hours, getting ready, getting there, sitting through the concert, returning home, etc. out of their schedule to hear you play, because, supposedly, they believe it will be a worthwhile experience.
They showed up to hear as many things played well as possible, not to count how many things you play badly.
It's not you vs. the audience... they're on your side. An audience of dozens or hundreds or thousands shouldn't matter... they're all individuals that want to hear something played well. No different than someone who stumbles in on a rehearsal, except there are a whole lot more of them, for logistical reasons.
Then comes the issue of damage control. The horrific panic that can arise after the first minor slipup can be crippling... but only if you let it. If you screw something up in practice, you probably just let it slide (unless you're woodshedding that area), and move on without letting it phase you.
Just because someone heard you slip up, doesn't mean you should let it phase you. As a listener, that's exactly what I *don't* want to hear. A missed note or two? I could care less. A performer who FREAKS OUT because of a missed note or two and lets those little imperfections completely ruin even the easiest passages that follow? That bothers me.
What I found most helpful in reaching peace with the audience was playing some new music that had passages I still maintain are actually technically impossible... including some staccato disjunct altissimo 16th (or were they 32nd) sextuplets at q=180, or something thereabouts. Some easier portions of the piece were made impossible as well by an understandably nervous conductor who took the fiendishly difficult music about 40 over tempo at the concert.
Rehearsing for (and, especially, performing) this concert introduced the concept to me of "play what it looks like." I hammered out a bunch of notes, in the vicinity of those written, in approximations of the rhythms and articulations. I received numerous compliments afterwards, including from the person who runs the ensemble, about how excellently I'd played.
Granted, this doesn't translate exactly to more traditional repertoire, but the concept still works... I played always looking at what's coming next and how to play it as well as possible, with never the slightest bit of concern about how well I had played what happened before, my only goal to make it sound as good as I could.
This mindset works especially well for sight-reading, and if you keep it up and combine it with practice and musical opinion, the comfort level can last indefinitely, regardless of the audience size. As a bonus, it lends itself to an "I'm a listener too, so let's all see how well we can make this go" alliance with the audience, rather than a more adversarial relationship of "I'll show them ALL what an excellent soloist I am!!!"
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-02-02 21:22
Read Kenny Werner's book: Effortless Mastery.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-02-02 21:31
Ken wrote: "any side effects of beta blockers come from continued use, not a single pill"
A single pill? Do you think if Michael takes a beta blocker before his junior recital, and it helps steady his nerves, that will be the last pill he takes?
---"When your living depends on playing your best, you do what works."
There are techniques that work that anybody can learn. The stuff I learnt to help with my performance anxiety has helped me in many other situations too, eg. my driving test, unpleasant confrontations, all kinds of stressful situations. OK, I could have popped pills to get through these things. But ultimately I believe that it has been psychologically much more beneficial to me to have learnt skills that I can use.
Ken, I tried following your link but couldn't find the quote about 75% of professional musicians using beta blockers. I'm a professional musician and I believe that statement to be absolute bull. Who claimed that and which group of professional musicians did they study?
This post was started by a young player who is preparing for his junior recital. Surely that's not the best advice you could give him?
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Author: JDJ
Date: 2008-02-03 02:00
I can recommend two methods to calm the nerves of performance anxiety.
1) Find the recital hall days or weeks in advance, stand on stage, practice on stage. Imagine hall full of people. By standing and walking on stage, and practicing on stage, you are becoming familiar with the stage, the hall, the sights and sounds. This is real important because when you walk on stage "for real", it will all be familiar. You might even bring along and use the music stand you nomally practice with for the real performance.
2) Stage anxiety is similar to public speaking anxiety. You can find many books on public speaking and read up. Basic idea will be to realize that you are the invited guest, the public speaker, and in most cases, the reason you are the one on stage is that you know more about your subject than anyone else in the room. Now I have to admit that a recital in front of other experts changes this dynamic. About the best that be said of this situation is that all those other experts were in your shoes at one time or another in the past. Also, it is helpful to remember that everyone listening WANTS you to succeed and that they are YOUR FRIENDS.
I've used both methods and it results in a dramatic reduction of anxiety.
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Author: theclarinetguy
Date: 2008-02-03 14:28
Thank you all for your advice. I started thinking about Thursday during the Southern Mississippi Symphony Orchestra concert. I was playing principle and had the big solo in Mendelssohn's Die wandernden Komödianten I believe, excuse me if I got the piece wrong, I usually forget titles at times. There's that big clarinet solo and everyone said it was beautiful how I played it, but I notice shaking and losing breath.
The worse it's even been was last semester: I was playing Scott Mcallister's X Concerto Mvts. II-III for Keith Lemmons. I always start off great, nice and calm and relaxed, then a minute into the second movement I began to violently shake. It wasn't my best performence but I knew it enough to get through it. Samething happened during the orchestra competition solo audition, except add dry mouth to the problem. I just think it cuts down my playing about 10%. My teacher tells me I should be 110% ready for my performence which I agree with I just don't want to be shaking. Thanks again.
Micheal
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-02-03 14:34
Michael- I repeat: get the Don Greene book. It will get rid of your shakes.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-02-03 16:16
"any side effects of beta blockers come from continued use, not a single pill"
and: "When your living depends on playing your best, you do what works."
Aren't these the same type of comments athletes used fort years to justify the abuse of amphetamines and anabolic steroids? Bad (no, terrible!) advice, if you ask me.
Don't you feel the least bit guilty about suggesting to a young performer that chemical solutions are the way to go? I take a number of prescriptions, but these are to deal with various health issues. Years ago, I had surgery on my spine which will give me pain for the rest of my days. It was a question of the operation or paralysis. Worrying that certain pain medications would prove addictive, I quit them cold turkey a few years back, and don't use anything that might alter my perceptions in the least. Instead, I deal with my pain in other ways.
Beta Blockers have legitimate medical indications for use. Advocating them to someone you don't even know in the least is dangerous and just flat out wrong.
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-02-04 08:48
1. *Prepare.* Work out any neuroses about your equipment at home.
2. *Respect the piece.* It's bigger than you are. If I try pretend a piece is a trifling little thing to put my mind at ease, it always comes and bites me on the behind.
3. *Always keep some gas in the tank.* I always run out of puff earlier than I expect when soloing. In an ensemble situation, be prepared for your exposed tuning at ff to feel quite alarming - if you find yourself lipping the pitch up in the tutti, re-tune to a more comfortable place well before the solo or the exposed part will come crashing down around you.
3. *Perform.* I mean, be prepared to ham it up something rotten if you need to. If things start to go pear-shaped, play louder! I find it breaks the vicious cycle of hesitation causing poor playing causing hesitation. Also, dress to kill.
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Author: theclarinetguy
Date: 2008-02-04 16:26
Thanks Liquorice I ordered that book and will read it when it gets here.
Micheal
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-02-05 02:10
well its a growing trend in high school now too.
the girl i sat next to at this past weekends clinic and I are auditioning for state honors band and she told me she got prescribed beta blockers for the AUDITION. i thought that was a little ridiculous.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-02-05 02:34
I am a huge advocate of beta-blockers.
That said, Ken, the thread you are citing is a perfect example of how misinformation gets spread in our society today. The thread you're referencing was built around an article in which one musician made a guess as to how many of their fellow musicians were using beta-blockers. It was not even remotely close to being a scientific survey.
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Author: theclarinetguy
Date: 2008-02-05 03:38
I had a professor of mine say that if you eat a banana once day the week leading up to your performence that it acts as a sort of beta-blocker. I haven't tried this myself yet but that's just what I've been told.
Micheal
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-02-05 05:05
I've read Greene's book, Performance Success, and can say it is very helpful.
I would also like to again recommend Kenny Werner's, Effortless Mastery. I've read it several times and will continue to come back to it. I cannot recommend it enough.
I think that in order to overcome performance anxiety you must really pinpoint the problem psychologically. If you have a strong fear of failure for instance then I think that eating bananas would be rather fruitless (sorry, couldn't resist). The bananas may have some effect on you physically, but your fear of failure would still be present. I think this is true for a great deal of advice that you might hear about overcoming performance anxiety.
Which brings me back to my original point- get the Werner book.
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Author: BrianM
Date: 2008-02-05 05:29
What works for me are the following:
1. Perform a lot. Take any chance to perform. Treat every performance like it's the most important one of your playing career. That way doing something like a recital will seem like "just another performance", but you can still treat it with the respect it deserves. (maybe a little bit short notice on this advice for an impending recital)
2. Focus on your breathing. When you get nervous and your adrenaline kicks in you tend to breathe faster, and your heart rate rises, causing you to burn that precious oxygen more quickly. During your rests focus on slowing down your breathing. It will help you stay calm, and will (well, for me at least) let you get through all those phrases that you might find acceptable in practice, but get cut short in performance.
3. Trust that everything will come out correctly. If something does go wrong, don't think about it. As soon as any mistake has happened, try to forget about it and think only about the rest of the piece. Tell yourself that what you're going to play is easy, and that nothing could go wrong. If you panic and tense up, things are more likely to go poorly. The comment about "why get nervous? It’s one less thing to worry about." has a lot of truth to it.
4. Prepare. Practice until you can play your pieces cold. Play them for friends, family, in a master-class, or for whichever random passerby you can snag into listening.
5. If all else fails, take a Beta blocker. I don't use them myself, but I understand why somebody would use them. Personally I think that having that bit of adrenaline adds something to the performance, but if you find that you can't handle the stress, these will provide a temporary solution. Long term however, it would probably be more beneficial to learn to deal with performance anxiety in a constructive way.
I went to a masterclass once where the speaker said that one of the ways he dealt with performance anxiety was by visualizing it as a person. He even gave the person a goofy name and could describe him down to the silly hat he was wearing. When he felt the anxiety approaching he would visualize himself telling the anxiety "I'll be with you in a minute, I just have something to do first". This isn't something that has worked for me personally, but apparently it has worked for others.
I hope that some of this will be helpful for you. Have a great performance,
Brian
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-06 07:45
I missed this thread the first time around, and have been reading it with a certain degree of horror.
Like Liquorice, I normally have a great deal of respect for Ken Shaw's views. Not this time.
JJAlbrecht made an excellent point when he compared the use of drugs by performers with their use by sportsmen.
To get some idea of the extent of the problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport.
Many sports - most famously cycling - have encountered huge problems as a result. Competitors were taking drugs, and indulging in other quasi-medical practices like autologous transfusion, and dying as a result.
Is it too fanciful to suggest that the music world should take a leaf out of the book of the sporting world, and introduce mandatory drug testing for all performers, amateur as well as professional?
If you think that is an absurd idea, please tell me why.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-06 10:51
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
> I missed this thread the first time around, and have been
> reading it with a certain degree of horror.
Check the Keepers section of the BBoard for a long, and thoughtful, series of posts.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-06 14:00
Thank you for that link.
The rules of the World Anti-Doping Agency http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2009_Prohibited_List_ENG_Final_20_Sept_08.pdf are instructive in this regard.
Beta-blockers are prohibited for both in-competition and out-of-competition use in two sports, archery and shooting. They are prohibited for in-competition use in 16 other sports, of which perhaps the most prominent are automobile and golf.
Along with alcohol, beta-blockers are the only drugs that are prohibited in certain sports only. Most prohibited drugs are prohibited in all sports.
The WADA rules allow competitors to apply for a therapeutic use exemption under certain conditions: http://www.wada-ama.org/en/exemptions.ch2.
I can't currently think of a good reason why music and sport should be different in this regard. If beta-blockers are truly essential to some musicians, and if they truly do not enhance performance, then those individuals would be granted a therapeutic use exemption in just the same way that sportsmen are.
At that very least, such a system might discourage the practice of using beta-blockers as a first line of treatment, rather than a last recourse should other methods fail.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-06 14:23
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
...
We're not going to open this discussion again unless there's something new to say, which is why it's in the Keeper section.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-06 15:00
IMHO:
The best prevention for nerves before you play is practice.
The best way to overcome nerves when you play is to enjoy the music you make.
I wouldn't fault somebody for using beta-blockers, but I do find it a bit surprising that anyone who really enjoys performing (especially someone who performs frequently) would need or want them (unless they had a heart condition or other medical reason, of course).
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-06 15:02
Actually, I thought I was saying something that hadn't been said before, at least as much as several other posts in this thread. I was making a specific comparison, backed up by facts, between the attitude to drugs of the sporting community and the attitude of musicians. I was asking why the two communities have such different attitudes. I think that is a fair and interesting question, relevant to the subject matter of this bulletin board.
If none of us are saying anything new, merely duplicating what's in "Keepers", then I don't know why you didn't close this thread months ago.
Mind you, if you applied such a rule consistently you would probably close at least 75% of all new threads immediately.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-06 15:46
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
> If none of us are saying anything new, merely duplicating
> what's in "Keepers", then I don't know why you didn't close
> this thread months ago.
You're right, this thread should be closed. I'll reopen the keepers thread for you to add your post.
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