 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-12-20 14:51
"...while at the same time developing manufacturing partnerships in Germany, India and China for student instruments..."
To save on labor costs?
...GBK
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-12-20 15:05
It has not helped their IT division any.....Last look at the Buffet website showed the clarinet/instruments to be a blank page, the dealers link for North America did not function, and some of the artists were missing.
Compare that to the Yamaha pages, replete with video interviews, streaming videos of trombone manufacture, etc. Needs some work, guys.
edit..... instruments now back on the website, sans the Vintage model as mentioned in prior thread.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-12-20 17:35)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-12-20 15:57
Tom Ridenour's clarinets are made in China. Are they crap? (Maybe it's too soon to tell. After all, they might turn green in a couple of years.)
In any case, I hope we won't be seeing 12- and 13-key system Buffets with red rubber pads, red threaded tenons and lead-based keys anytime soon. 
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-20 16:09
...and even if - there are enough other brands to choose from.
--
Ben
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-20 17:52
For a youngish student Clarinet I strongly prefer the E-11. Not that it has the "buffet sound", but I like the keywork and the craftsmanship of that instrument for a first wooden Clarinet.
Never did like Rubber, maybe would if I tried the Lyrique, didn't like the Arioso at all.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-12-20 18:30
"Tom Ridenour's clarinets are made in China. Are they crap?"
From a keywork standpoint, yes.
I agree that the move from Germany won't be good for the E11. There were awfully consistent, if not the absolute best intermediate horns out there.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-20 18:37
What would stop the German manufacturer from producing under their own label when Buffet cancels the mandate?
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Ben
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2007-12-20 18:45
Where does it say they are moving E-11 production out of Germany? It says they are developing partnerships in Germany, not closing them down.
But this is the reaction we see on this bulletin board whenever there is a management change at any manufacturer. It was the same when The Music Group bought Buffet from B&H. It was the same when Steinway bought Leblanc. All doom and gloom, end of the world as we know it.
Buffet are just shuffling roles in the boardroom, like any company does, and looking at their sourcing, like any company does. So what? It's not a big story.
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Author: kenb
Date: 2007-12-20 18:48
'Sounds like their student instruments will maybe soon be CRAP.'
I don't think so. Buffet probably makes a very tidy profit from the large volume of student instruments they produce - maybe more than their professional level clarinets.
I'm sure the hard-headed businessmen in charge wouldn't jeopardise their bottom line by accepting lower manufacturing standards in their student line instruments.
(I'm also sure they will take good care of their high-end products, where the real power of the brand lies.)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-12-20 19:25
Lets get a few things straight..
the entire french woodwind industry has been having trouble for a long time.
The E11 is not really an instrument in the classic sense of the word..it is a plastic laminate thrown on top of 2cd rate wood. However, for students it is better than plastic but not by alot! I find the E11's sound uneven and harsh through the entire range. They tend to be dreadfully sharp. Even the plastic inserts are inconsistent on the edges.
As to other problems...it seems since Buffet has come under new ownership many of their clarinets are much more prone to cracking. I also wonder why Buffet is so expensive when you consider how many models they make there should be a lessening in price on the R13!!! Buffet is not listening to it's market!!! This is serious when you consider how unhappy many are with the current quality of their clarinets.
Leblanc has decided to shut down the Kenosha factory...
Conn is now partnered with 'Selmer' Pretty earth shattering stuff!
David Dow
Post Edited (2007-12-20 19:26)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-20 20:52
"Lets get a few things straight..
the entire french woodwind industry has been having trouble for a long time.
The E11 is not really an instrument in the classic sense of the word..it is a plastic laminate thrown on top of 2cd rate wood. However, for students it is better than plastic but not by alot! I find the E11's sound uneven and harsh through the entire range. They tend to be dreadfully sharp. Even the plastic inserts are inconsistent on the edges."
------------------------------------
Dave, that's not straight at all......
It isn't laminate whatsoever, it's wood. It's tuned at 442 so yup, it is high. What do you like for a student clarinet brand?
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2007-12-20 23:08
One has to think that the industry needs to question many aspects of the manufacturing of this noble clarinet of ours.
There needs to be a rational for the amazing proliferation of clarinet mouthpieces made for almost a century from hard rubber and lauded by players and teachers everywhere for being the finest material available for a mouthpiece, for sound, for stability, and for longevity of stability. The craftsmen who speak of their products speak to the work of Lelandais and Chedeville as makers of great integrity who labored with this rather wonderful material to which we affix our cane or even our plastic on in order to make a beautiful sound on our clarinets. But the majority of our clarinets are made from another material: wood.
Some makers, designers and manufacturers have made clarinets of the same matrerial as our mouthpieces: hard rubber, and some with excellent results such as better tuning, easier resistance factors, achievable beautiful legato much better dimentional stability,with little embouchure manipulation.
Is it not the time for the entire industry to begin to realize that this same material can itself help to create a sound that may be as beautiful as the sound of their mouthpieces? The sound from hard rubber may indeed be a bit different than of wood, then again it may not, but to accept that it may be different is not to therefore ostracize the material from the ability of a clarinetist to choose it.
Hard rubber grows on trees, gentleman and it is lying around awaiting manufacture into clarinets. Some of these are really beautiful sounding, a consistant stream of intent from player to mouthpiece to instrument to the audience.Is it not the time?
Happy Holidays,
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2007-12-20 23:49)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-12-20 23:33
How bout this:
I have my students buy one of the following for a clarinet that I think is better than the E11
Yamaha 450 model or even better the 650
Ridenour Clarinet
Leblanc Sonata
Leblanc Rapsodie
All of which have integral wood tone holes except the Ridenour clarinet which is excellent..
The E11 is simply not well put together..I have one and if you scratch the surface you will find it is a laminate paint finish over the clarinet. That is my opinion....I can send pics of mine if you want!
David Dow
Post Edited (2007-12-20 23:46)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-12-20 23:44
Back on subject
I am hoping the moves at Buffet are going to mean a better product and higher quality. As of now I have little faith this means anything. Buffet does absolutely little product follow up with it's customers as I speak. On this level they need to begin looking at the interests of professional and amateur level players. Customer relationships are what good business is about.
David Dow
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-12-20 23:45
"...hard rubber, and some with excellent results such as better tuning..."
While I do not discount hard rubber as a possibility for clarinets, I do need to point out that any issues regarding tuning are a product of design rather than the material used. The Ridenour horns appear to have a better scale than an R13, but that is not a product of using rubber over wood.
Case in point: Nothing tunes better than the Buffet Tosca, Yamaha CSG, and possibly the Leblanc Legacy (I liked it, but have not had extensive playing time on it). These are simply the latest wood models from these companies and reflect a renewed emphasis on tuning.
Post Edited (2007-12-20 23:45)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2007-12-21 01:37
Don't know what's going on at Buffet right now, but somethings in the wind. I've had two barrels (one R13 and one RC) and a bell (for RC) on order since September. I was told they parts were "in stock" when I placed the order. After about 2 weeks and no parts I called back. I didn't get to speak with "my" rep, but was transferred to RH. He told me the parts were in stock when I ordered them but he didn't know what happened and now they were no longer in stock. RH also told me that he did have an R13 barrel in stock (66mm) but had silver rings and he would replace them with nickel rings and send it right out......never came. Now, whenever I call LI and RH are always "unavaiable" and do not return my phone messages. I have a customer waiting for a price on a lower joint for her R13 and I've called everyday since Monday and still haven't gotten a price. I've left messages with three people (initials only here, but those of you who know "whose who" at Buffet will recognize them): RH, LI, and FK. Now then, I call Weiner in NY just to get a barrel. Seems as though they're experiencing some delivery issues as well. Sure, now I'm having to pay more than wholesale, but at least I'm getting a barrel for a customer whose been more than patient.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-21 02:02
David, is your E-11 recent or older?
The instrument has gone various changes in the past 20 years. I didn't like them at all when they first came out, they just weren't very good at all.
I know what you are talking about with the laminate, but it's just a shine finish. At least the keys aren't flaking!
Sherman, the future will have to have other materials that Clarinets will be constructed from as the wood will eventually run out. I'm so far not convinced that hard rubber has nearly as good a sound as good wood does. But that gets into the materials debate.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: SolidRockMan
Date: 2007-12-21 09:19
'Sounds like their student instruments will maybe soon be CRAP'
This was probably a fair categorisation of most Chinese-made instruments previously - but as far as I can see things are changing fast. For example Chinese student-level saxophones are now available which are as good as or better than their Tiawanese counterparts, but at less than half the price. This is a great step forward for parents who would otherwise discourage the instrument on cost grounds, or for anyone who just wants to have a go at playing.
It can't be long before pro-level instruments come from China at bargain-basement prices. Looks like Buffet have realised that if you can't beat them you'd better join them...
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Author: Cosmicjello
Date: 2007-12-22 07:05
I think we need to distinguish between the Buffet Brand and the Buffet Company.
Buffet now makes every woodwind instrument except flutes, piccolos and contrabassoons.
And between Courtois and Besson, every brass instrument.
Not to mention cases, swabs and all the accessories that go along with them.
In this day and age, companies would be foolish to not utilize the manufacturing cost and capabilities of China, India and the like. Maybe it's only the cork grease being produced in China, maybe it's a Besson Tuba from India or an E11 from Germany, they (Buffet), like any company will go where they can get the most for their dollar.
As long as the standard of their products do not suffer, who are we to judge?
Hopefully, they won't.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2007-12-22 15:52
Concerning the statement that "nothing tunes better than the Tosca, the CSG or possibly the Leblanc Legacy", this is simply not true as given several examples of each , each clarinet will tune differently. There is no consistent stability in the dimensions in each different piece of wood. There is however in rubber, at least much more regular . That is why that it does have to do with the material and not just the design. So, while I am aware of what you are saying, I take respectful issue with the veracity of the statements for the above reasons.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-12-22 16:19
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. Not only have my own experiences with specific hard rubber clarinets simply shown them to have their own intonation quirks, but I disagree with the basic premise involved. While it is true that there are dimensional stability differences in each piece of wood, the same can be said for hard rubber. Anything that is molded and comes out needing to cool with have just as much variance as a piece of wood that is milled. While I haven't liked every element of the newer wood clarinets being produced, I have observed a very high level of consistency in tuning among them.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-22 16:22
Not every hard rubber instrument comes out of a mold. Some are reamed/milled etc just like their wooden counterparts.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-12-22 16:50
Just like to mention that ALL materials expand with heat and ALL materials get hot when they are worked in any mannar. As far as Buffet (the original subject) I don't think there will be much change to the product. Especially since so many people are thinking (as this thread proves) 'Oh, it will be made in xxxxxxx so everything will be junk now'- they have an interest in making sure people think otherwise by having high quality control.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-22 17:09
True, but there have been other instances where the shop was moved to another country and the product suffered. (a major Sax manufacturer did it and my repairman was telling me of the problems with the instrument now). And that was just to another part of Europe.
When/if I see "made in china" on an E-11 and it's good then I will have a sigh of relief. Until then I will wonder just what good except a lower production cost would benefit from the changes.
Hopefully the Clarinet line won't be affected at all.....
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-22 18:55
> I will wonder just what good except a lower production cost would benefit
> from the changes.
And one can muse whether or not lower production cost really is the basis for a cheaper-in-the-long-run product...
--
Ben
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-12-22 19:01
I will 2cd with Sherman on that one..there are many fine R13's out there, but for any player you have to test first and then buy. Not alot of places offer a wide selection of R13's for this process.
However, in spite of conisitency issues a fine R13 is a great instrument. Sadly I see alot of players buy outrigght the first instrument they see and of course that is bad news. It also helps to have a technician or even a player come along to try the clarinets out too..
The largest issue is whether or not Buffet can maintain consistency by moving some production to the far east. This does not mean an improved product necessarily...it may not even mean a lower price. I suspect the large array of clarinets Buffet now produce may create a product consistency issue..
You have
R13 Greenline
R13 regular
R13 Presige
R13 Vintage Clarinets
Tosca Clarinets
Rc Clarinet
Rc Presitge model
Festival MODEL clarinets(vastly underrated)
Conservatoire model(only in Europe)
So there you have it a pile of pro model instruments. ONCE upon a time Buffet only made one pro model clarinet..the good ole R13.
David Dow
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-12-22 21:53
D Dow wrote:
> So there you have it a pile of pro model instruments. ONCE
> upon a time Buffet only made one pro model clarinet..the good
> ole R13.
A very important point to remember:
Unlike today, in the 1960's the R13 was the top of the line, most expensive Bb/A clarinet offered by Buffet. The wood was aged for 20 years and the most choice billets of grenadilla were selected and used. In addition, more hand assembly time was devoted to building each R13. Today, with a number of models priced higher than the R13, wood with different properties are designated for certain models. The aging time has decreased to a partially kiln dried process which only takes about 5 years. Assembly is now highly automated and (partially because of demand) clarinets are produced at a far quicker pace...GBK
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-12-22 22:37
Re: "The aging time has decreased to a partially kiln dried process which only takes about 5 years. Assembly is now highly automated and (partially because of demand) clarinets are produced at a far quicker pace"... it seems to me that these are the types of changes that often occur when narrowly focused cost accountants wield more power in a company than the people who understand the product and its market. The automobile industry is another good example of how saving a few bucks per product can ruin a company or an industry. It's really very sad.
Hans
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2007-12-23 15:14
Customers should always be concerned about management changes. Dr. W. Edwards Deming, the quality guru, always preached that quality problems are due to top management, not the worker. By listening to Deming, the Japanese became a world leader as a producer of quality products. Too bad he's no longer alive - IMHO Buffet Crampon could learn a few things from him.
Deming, an engineer/mathematician was also a composer and played drums and the flute.
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