 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-06 15:18
Greetings -- I would normally hope to post helpful information to a forum before asking for assistance, so I apologize in advance for my timing. My 7th grade daughter is in the process of upgrading to her second Bb clarinet for band, and the instrument currently being suggested for her is branded "Accent model CL920W." Her first clarinet was of the same brand, but that was a rental, and we will be purchasing this one. Since the price being quoted was $1795 (full retail), less a $300 rental credit, we are now talking serious money (smile). This clarinet is apparently, according to the (IMO not-very helpful) Accent website, made of grenadilla wood with undercut tone holes, both of which I understand are indicia of a quality instrument. The dealer that works with our school is well respected, but I am not familiar with this brand and, after spending a great deal of time resarching the brand online, it apears to me to be almost an "in-house" brand that is sold to just a few dealers. The website appears to be owned by West Music Company in Coralville, Iowa. Otherwise, I have found very little discussion of Accent brand instruments online.
This dealer also carries Yamaha and Buffet, and we are planning a visit to the dealer later today to try a few other clarinets before making a final decision. I am more than happy to spend this amount of money, or more, for a good quality instrument, and I dont mean to turn this into a price discussion, but I want to make sure we are getting a good value. I expect my daughter will play this instrument at least through high school.
Many thanks in advance for any advice you can provide.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-12-06 16:09
This is a tough question. Some things strike me as important.
First, I've never heard of the proposed instrument --which probably means that not a lot of repair technicians have either. With Yamaha and Buffet on-hand with models in similar price ranges, I'd have to see something spectacular in the Accent before placing my money and faith there.
If outside play is important, then the stability of a plastic instrument will avoid the specter of a crack in a wooden clarinet. Yamaha makes some really, really good plastic clarinets. Many of these play better than highly respected models of wooded clarinets.
Have a look at the full range of all three brands of instruments at the dealer. Look at the obvious indications of careful manufacture: smoothly finished wood or plastic bodies. Grasp the key work by the parts that engage the pivot screws and feel for slop and stickiness in the mechanism. Look at the undersides of the touch pieces for indications that the metal is nicely forged and plated.
Warning, the nickel plating (silver costs extra and is worth it IMHO) on late model Buffets has been criticized for very poor durability.
Ask about the mechanism: material, cast or forged (preferred).
Finally, take along your daughter's current instrument. Using her current mouthpiece and reeds, play all of the candidates. You listen and coach. Different clarinets --particularly out-of-the-box instruments that have not received the careful touch of a skilled technician will "feel" different --certainly different from her current instrument. Fingers need to be arched to poke into too-high tone hole rings, keys have to be pressed harder to seat slightly crooked pads. Try to figure out if such problems are inherently part of a bad instrument or just an easily corrected maladjustment.
If you have a tuner (say a Korg C30 --$30 or less at the music store), play scales and watch the tuner. Don't worry too much about having absolute pitch, but check to see if all the notes in the scale "lean" sharp or flat about the same amount --that the clarinet is in tune with itself.
Get your daughter's opinion of the horns, which feels good to her.
This qualitative and intonation assessment is a big order for a player with more years of experience than your daughter, and it is not unreasonable to retain a 3-rd party to evaluate instruments WITH her. Hire a teacher, a professional player --someone who can "stand up" to the retailer's sales pitch.
Finally, not that clarinets are highly variable. Small errors in manufacture (many poorly understood even by the manufacturers) compound to make one instrument greatly different from another. In general, as you move up in quality/price level, the differences get smaller --often due to maladjustments that can be easily corrected. You are more likely to get a good Buffet Tosca at $5500 than a Buffet E11 at $1500.
Good luck, and let us know of your experience.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-12-06 16:10
My first succestion is if the dealer is recomending this brand of clarinet which I've never heard of before then don't listen to it. You should always ask the teacher and have him listening to the student playing a clarinet and two clarinets of the same model can vary greatly. I never listen to my local dealer and have almost done all my buying on my own since I was 16(I started playing at age of 10). For example I've never played on same mouthpieces as my teachers mainly because I like a little bit closer mouthpieces than they do. I've never got a complain about my setup from my teacher but I hear sometimes that I tend to use sligthly heavier reeds than I might use on my mouthpieces.
In short: It will not be very usefull to ask about this here. We don't know how your daughter plays or what instrument you will get to try. You need someone like the teacher(not the dealer) to listen to her play through few clarinets and it is also helpfull to record her playing because it always sounds different from your upper teath to the brain than from ears.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2007-12-06 16:22
Seriously, you should be talking to your daughter's band teacher or a professional instructor. Find someone you can respect. Never buy based on a music store recommendation.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-12-06 16:33
ditto on the professional instructor. you might be getting suckered to buy an instrument that your going to have to upgrade again in the future. for $1400, you can get a really good used buffet r 13. remember, clarinets are TOOLS to make music. granted people sometimes put more emotional value on their instruments, make sure you get the best out of your trade in.
I've also never heard of accent clarinets. i've seen those cheap inferior plastic clarinets which are in the same line as bundys and selmers. (with some exceptions)
good luck on your purchase
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-12-06 16:37
I would stay away from any "house" brand and go with one of the name manufacturers. I have always found the playing quality as well as the fit and finish of the Yamaha instruments to be superb. They would certainly get my serious consideration. Buffet has been a good choice for years. These would both be better options for playing success and for the overall value of the instrument and eventual resale if you ever choose to replace or upgrade. Good luck!
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2007-12-06 16:48
I can't imagine spending $1800 on a clarinet that noone has ever heard of when the best clarinets that everyone knows very well are available in the same price range. It's possible the Accent is good but I wouldn't want to gamble that kind of cash on it without comparing against the best. That's in the price range of professional instruments. I'd suggest, in addition to the Accent, looking at instruments from the big 4 - Yamaha, Selmer, Buffet, Leblanc. IMO, I highly doubt the Accent can stand up against these. I could be wrong though..................
Since your daughter is also only in 7th grade, you may consider a "step-up" instrument like a Forte ($424 from www.forteclarinet.com, made by Omar Henderson of the Doctor's Products - a sponsor of this website), a Buffet E11(c. $1050), a Yamaha YCL-450 (c. $925). These are all considerably less expensive if you are worried about losing your rent2buy money. Check out www.wwbw.com for educational purposes. There are other clarinets as well but these come to mind as good alternatives.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-06 16:50
My local store sells the Accent line. One of those models - from inside information - was actually a Buffet - German made model.
Check and see if it has stamped on it Made in Germany. The one i checked out had plastic side spatula pins, silver plated and all - comparable to the E11 ??
I never compared the Accent to the respective Buffet .... so I would try to do that if I was you.
I'm not sure how accurate the information would be today as that was a couple years ago. FWIW, The upper line alto sax at that time was a B&S (german - though B&S went out of business since then)
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-06 16:52
Thanks for the very, very helpful suggestions so far; its really nice that there are folks who are willing to take the time to write detailed messages with good advice, and I am very grateful. I didn't want to write too long of an initial message, but based on the comments so far I should fill in a couple more facts:
First, my daughter had a chance to play two "Accent-branded" upgraded clarinets and a Yamaha clarinet on upgrade night at school (unfortunately I dont know the model of the Yamaha she tried). She tried them with the school's band director and the rep. from the dealer present (also my wife was present ... I had another event with my son to attend). She used the mouthpieces that came with each of the instruments, not the one from her old clarinet (which I now understand may have been a better idea). There was consensus that she got the best tone out of the Accent CL920W. Interestingly, she was only able to get, according to my wife, a very raspy tone out of the Yamaha, causing me to at least question whether it was set up right.
Second, my daughter currently has in her possession the Accent CL920W (ie, the new one), but I have contacted both the band director and the dealer and have stated that I have some questions and issues, and the dealer is being very forthright in stating that we still have all of our options open, hence our visit later today. I have also been corresponding with the band director who has been very helpful and, by the way -- smile, made it very clear without me asking that neither she or the school has any commercial relationship with the dealer. The band director also explained that the instruments the dealer brought were those were models on which the dealer was willing to give a credit from the rental payments toward the purchase price. By the way, I 'm much more concerned with getting a good value on a high quality instrument than I am about any rent-to-own credit.
BTW, stevesklar, to your point, I recall looking at the case on the Accent CL920 last night, and it said "made in Germany," but I will have to wait until after school to look at the instrument itself. Since the dealer sells Buffet, I will raise that question as well.
Ideally, I am just looking for the best advice for when we walk into the dealer today and again, I am very grateful for your time.
Post Edited (2007-12-06 17:19)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-12-06 17:11
Let's return the compliment Richmond: You're doing a great job of communicating the details fo the situation so that you can get the best advice.
Now, I am in complete agreement with those above.
I would not discount that the instrument might be of good or great quality out of hand. The issue is that you and your daughter are not really capable of determaning whether or not this is a horn worth your money. (no offense!)
I am not implying that the dealer is sneaky or under-handed, but what if the Yamaha is just a poorly set up example of that horn?
Only one of the respondants above has any personal experience with the instrument: Stevesklar. He is stating that the $1800 Accent seems to be comparable to a $1400 Buffet. (I hope I am not missinterpreting). Perhaps he can give you more info?
In my opinion, it would be worth paying a reputable teacher to test these instruments before you by them. The best teacher you can find, even if their time is worth $65 or more is well worth it in comparison to the price of the investment.
James
As an individual who abhors wasting money (and students wasting money), I would be extrememly cautious in this situation.
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-12-06 17:14)
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2007-12-06 17:17
Someone already said this, but have your daughter play an instrument that you're considering upgrading to with her current mouthpiece. Using different mouthpieces on each of the instruments can in itself lead to differences in tone, so it's not really an accurate way to judge the tone if a different mouthpiece is being used on each one.
I just don't know about this Accent instrument...I think they're asking WAY too much for it. Everyone else who's posted is correct in saying that a Buffet E11 or Yamaha YCL-450 is more likely to be a superior instrument (and for a better price). I had a student of mine upgrade to the Yamaha, and I'm impressed with it...I thought it to be finished better and more in-tune than a Buffet E11.
If you want to check out one of the best clarinets out there...period...that happens to be priced low (just under $1000), check out Tom Ridenour's Lyrique clarinet (www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com). It's made out of hard rubber (not plastic), so it will not crack because of temperature/humidity extremes...a big bonus for a student who carries their instrument back and forth to school. Tom Ridenour is one of the top clarinet acousticians around, and his instrument is very well designed...wonderful tone, and very in-tune.
Wood isn't necessarily better...I think the biggest determing factor in the tone of the instrument is its acoustical design (although the material does come into play...there's a reason why so many people do prefer wood). Most manufacturers put their best effort into the design of their grenadilla instruments, not their plastic ones.
I echo everyone else's suggestion that you get a third party to help you evaluate...try to find an accomplished clarinettist to help. I don't need to repeat too much of what others have said...there's just so many factors that come into play.
Seriously, though, check out Tom Ridenour's instruments. I sold my Buffet R13 after I got a Lyrique...it's that good. (BTW, I'm not affiliated with Ridenour...I just love his products.)
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Author: Gardini
Date: 2007-12-06 17:44
Great thread with good basic information. That seems like way too much money for an instrument that most people haven't heard of. The way I can afford to upgrade is to buy a good used instrument. I recently bought a Buffet C-12 in great shape for under $500. Three new pads, minor adjustments and a small cork piece cost me $50.
There are other threads here offering warnings and advice on buying a used instrument. Search them out if that is the direction you choose. I have bought off of Craigslist, ebay and online musician classified pages. So far, knock on wood, I have been very happy with the clarinets I have bought. My Selmer 37 bass is a dream instrument and it cost me well under half of the available price of a new instrument. I have had luck with Google by searching for a model name or #, looking all the way down to page 20+ of the search sometimes. When I find something interesting I make personal contact with the seller (phone calls and emails) and try to make sure that the deal is on the level. This all takes time, but I enjoy the hunt. People on this board have been great help as well.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-06 18:57
FWIW, each instrument should play really well - if properly setup !!
The differing tonal nuances are probably not noticeable for a student when each instrument is properly set up. The key layout would probably be the only thing really slightly noticeable.
As for the price. My local dealer has the prices the opposite. The Accent was less than the E11.
I'm going to try an give them a call and get a model number of that german Accent for more info for us.
FWIW, if the Buffet E11 was less than the Store-Brand Accent, i'd get the E11.
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-06 19:45
stevesklar -- many many thanks. BTW, my wife reminded me I was wrong about the price on the Accent in my post. The CL920W was $1595 (before applying any rental credit).
Everyone -- We will be heading over to the dealer after school in about an hour. Although we will not be able to arrange a professional listener to join us, we will certainly have the option to have the band director listen to the instrument we choose to see if she agrees with our decision. We will use the same mouthpiece on all the instruments we try, and I will ask my daughter why she likes, or doesn't like, a particular instrument to try as best I can to take issues of poor adjustment out of the equation. I agree about the comments that the instruments should all sound pretty good, and that's probably the thing that has me the most paranoid to begin with -- that the Yamaha may have been (emphasis on "may") set up poorly on upgrade night to drive sales toward the Accent instruments. That may be really unfair, so I want to wait and see.
One wild card here is the Ridenour option, which is intriguing ... not sure how to factor that in yet unless I can buy more time from the local dealer.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-12-06 19:47
Any instrument you purchase should come with at least a seven day trial period. There is more than enough time to contact an expert to check the instrument if you wish to avail yourself of that opportunity.
Good luck with selection!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-06 19:52
apparently there are two models made in germany
720W retail $1523
920W retail $2150
both made in germany, both with undercut toneholes ... supposedly
when i asked about whether the toneholes were wood or plastic inserts she replied that they were metal -- she used to be a sax player only and didn't know anything about clarinets.
They do have them in stock so if you are not in too much of a hurry I can go over there and take a look in the next couple of days. they are only 1/2 mile from my house and i'm there quite often anyways.
btw, for purchase they would give 30% off the retail price.
FWIW - look at the toneholes - look carefully - the parts you cover with your fingers. if they are plastic then it is probably a Buffet E-11 in disguise. If it's wood ?? then maybe the E-13 in disguise ???? assuming they are Buffets in disguise
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-06 20:00
i should mention that I did play a 920 before - it's been a while . but the keywork was great and the tone was pretty good - certainly looked and felt like the E11 but i didn't pay close attention - I was there to test an R-13 which they brought in for me to test - it wasn't set up - bad tone, leaks and I couldn't even play it.
anywwhooo ... good luck tonight.
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-06 20:11
Tobin and David -- thanks. I called the dealer the morning after the evening "upgrade" event, so I'm hoping they wont give me too much trouble. Its only been 72 hours, and the band director did explicitly tell me that if I have any concerns to let her know. And in fairness to the dealer, they have been good to work with.
Stevesklar --thanks as well for the offer, but I suspect this thing is going to be over pretty soon unless I suspect that I'm not getting a straight story. I will look at the toneholes and ask about any Buffet lineage.
Either way, I will obviously be back to post on the results. Then, when my son goes to "upgrade night" for his Cannonball Alto Sax I'll be in touch again (smile), but I wont forget the good advice I received here.
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Author: samohan245
Date: 2007-12-06 22:15
me for example upgraded to a Buffett E11
it fit me just perfectly but u also have to remember you cant just upgrade a clarinet. you also have to upgrade mouthpieces and reeds if needed.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-12-06 22:25
Never, never buy before try. And try should be for about a week. All makes and models may vary significantly in intonation, etc. A few are of artist quality. Snavely recomended trying 20 or so.
richard smith
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2007-12-06 23:58
<<<There was consensus that she got the best tone out of the Accent CL920W. Interestingly, she was only able to get, according to my wife, a very raspy tone out of the Yamaha, causing me to at least question whether it was set up right. >>>
I'm sorry, but this is sounding awfully fishy. I think I'd talk to some other dealer.
FWIW, I just Googled the "Accent CL920W" and I only got three hits. That makes this a VERY obscure clarinet. If I were you, I'd really wonder about this. You will most certainly have difficulty selling it at a decent price if you ever need to. One of the links I got was the Accent site itself, and there was precious little information about the company. That's really disconcerting.
Also, the two other sites were retailers. One advertised a price of $1795, and the other advertised a price of $1,360.80. That's a big differential, and with a completely unknown instrument, something to worry about. At the $1,360.80 price, you could afford to forget the $300 rental credit, and still come out $135 ahead.
In general, I'd beware of dealers that are too entrenched in a particular school music program. They may think they have you over a barrel.
Definitely, DO NOT buy this clarinet without shopping some other dealers. Are you in St. Paul, MN as your ISP suggests? If so, you've got some options. Also, there are some very good technicians with reasonable rates in the Twin Cities area (who are independent of stores).
If it were me, I'd really stay away from an unknown instrument, especially for that kind of money.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2007-12-07 00:24
BTW, the Accent instrument company's website has an address with a .cc suffix, meaning it's hosted in the Cocos Islands. I'd highly doubt that they'd be importing clarinets from Germany. The "made in Germany" stamp might be fraudulent.
If you go to the Accent website, there's precious little info about anything...
http://www.accent.cc/
No email contact, no physical address, no clue about anything. This would encourage me to run as fast as possible.
The dealer you bought this from... By any chance, was his name Harold Hill?
Post Edited (2007-12-07 00:33)
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-07 02:30
So here's the evening update. We went to the store and tried the following three instruments (which were the only ones available in the store in the range we were looking for):
-- One was the Accent CL920W. The salesperson told me that this instrument is actually manufactured by the same company in Germany that produces instruments for Buffet. Various parts of the clarinet have the words, "made in germany" engraved into the wood.
-- One was a Yamaha Allegro (I believe model YCL-550AL). This was the same model (but not the same unit) that was at upgrade night earlier in the week at the school.
-- One was the Buffet R13 Greenline. This was more of a reference standard than necessarily one that we were planning on purchasing, although the price was less than I thought -- I think $2625 (gulp -- what am I saying -- smile).
In all cases we used the mouthpiece from the Accent CL 920W, with the label "Vandoren M13."
As to fit and finish, the finish on the underside of the keys on the Accent is actually better than the Yamaha which has more of an unfinished "matte" look; the finish on the Accent was shiny and clean. However, the wood finish on the Yamaha appeared richer to me, showing more wood grain, but that's possibly because its not stained as darkly as the Accent. I did notice (to my completely untrained eye) some similarities between the Accent and the Buffet R13 as to design, so I think the story about common manufacturers (maybe not as to the R13 but as to lesser Buffet models) does have some veracity. Both the Accent and the Yamaha appeared well constructed, but the Yamaha appeared to be slightly better screwed together, so to speak.
As to the playing test, in my opinion, in my wife's opinion and in the opinion of the salesperson at the dealer (which was, by the way, the same salesperson as upgrade night) the Yamaha sounded better than the Accent, particularly on the lower notes. To me it sounded richer and had more resonance. The Accent sounded good and tight, but it just sounded flatter to me relative to the Yamaha in the lower notes and flatter generally as to the R13. We did the test in a small sound room off the main showfloor with my daughter doing scales a few times and a short song or two. The "raspiness" issue did not re-occur with the Yamaha as it did during upgrade night. The salesperson also acknowleged very readily that the Yamaha has a worldwide reputation and would very likely have much greater resale value.
My daughter, however, disagreed, so here's what we are going to do: The dealer agreed to let us have both instruments for a few days, and tomorrow her band director has agreed to do a "blind test" of both instruments to give her objective opinon as to which one sounds better. I will try to be there as will my wife.
So that's the evening update. More tomorrow. LeeB, thanks for your comments, and we are taking this very seriously. I think the reason Accent probably chose the ".cc" designations for their website is because that one allowed them to use simply the "accent" mark as their domain name. They would have probably had to pay a lot of money for accent.com or accent.net, if you know what I mean.
More tomorrow. Again, thank you all so very very much for your input.
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-07 02:35
LeeB --
By the way, the dealer is a family-owned business that has been around quite a while with multiple locations in Minnesota (yes, we are near St. Paul) and in neighboring states. I'm not familiar with the name Harold Hill ... outside of The Music Man, of course!
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-07 02:42
FWIW, the M13 is my favorite Vandoren mpc ....... (from all that i have tried, which is not all of them)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-12-07 02:43
In order to be safe, there are about six brands with which most of us have had some sort of experience with (and if you search on this board, you'll often see favorable experiences with models in these six brands). The top four are (and you have already named two that I saw) Buffet, Yamaha, Leblanc, and Selmer. Two other brands that I and others have had favorable experiences with (search the board if you would like full reviews) are Amati clarinets, and Tom Ridenour clarinets. These six makes will all make clarinets that should fit the budget you've implied with the prices your considering for the accent, and some have different levels.
You may not know how far you're daughter would like to take clarinet. It may be too early to tell. If you are pressed or would rather have a NEW instrument, the top four mentioned above have high resale values if kept it good shape. Amati's I'm not too sure on the resale values as I don't see too many used ones. And Ridenours are fairly new and not many people seem to be giving up those either (I'm certainly not giving mine up anytime soon).
If you go to Tom Ridenour's website, he has a link to an article he wrote on "How to select a new clarinet" (available HERE). Definitely worth reading and you can apply it's knowledge to any clarinet you're trying out.
As to your idea of paying a professional to help select a clarinet, it can be both good or bad. It can be very good if you have a very nice selection of instruments to audition. More of a chance of the "best" one being a very good one. If you pay to select only between, let's say, four, then the best instrument may still not be that great. It might be, and the professional should give you his/her honest opinion as to whether it is, but the more you have to choose from, the more likely to find a very good one.
You CAN find websites where professionals will audition clarinets for you, and send you through the mail what they consider to be a very good one. And sometimes on trial basis! That might be a very good way to go. Some that sponsor this website are Peter Spriggs, Lisa's clarinet shop, and Walter Grabner.
It's kinda tough to NOT overload you with options, but I'm a firm believer in that the more options you have, the better a decision you can make. Personally, based on my experiences and others that I know, if you're looking for around $2000, I'd look at a leblanc cadenza. If you're looking for less, I'd look for a USED professional instrument, and I personally would not have a problem at all with the top of the line Amati clarinet or a Tom Ridenour Lyrique custom (I currently own this and really stand by it).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-12-07 04:15
It doesn't sound to me like the store you are talking to has much selection. Since you are in or near St. Paul, I would suggest you call Macalester and St. Olaf colleges. Both have pretty good music departments. Ask to talk to their clarinet professors and maybe their wind ensemble directors. Tell them briefly about your daughter and her musical interests and that she is ready for an upgrade and ask them what local music stores (if any) they send their students to. It may be that they will recommend the store you are already dealing with, in which case, you can have more confidence that you are where you should be. Perhaps, however, they will point you toward another store (or stores) in the area with more selection and possibly better prices. Also ask them about brands, particularly the Accent. If they have good things to say, again that should give you some comfort.
In my experience, most college faculty would be happy to talk to you and share some advice. It's good public relations and they really aren't inundated with calls.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2007-12-07 04:40
Regarding the Ridenour link, the most important part may be...
<<<Of course, there are many things that we can know about the clarinet requires years of practice and experience to understand and apply. For this reason, if you are a young player it is important that you have someone with more experience and skill to help you select a fine instrument.>>>
I just don't know how a beginning player is going to be able to go through and make those assessments. On top of that, depending on the set-up (reed, mouthpiece, ligature, and barrel), you could get some mighty different results. Plus, you might have an OK instrument that with a few tweaks by a good tech, might be a fabulous instrument. For a young player, an adjustment in technique (plus gaining strength) might yield different results over time.
It would be wonderful to have an accomplished player around for a second opinion. Barring that, if things were equal (or near equal) I would definitely give the nod to the more established brand (as far as service, parts availability, wood stability, and resale value goes). The Buffet Greenline would certainly be a more durable instrument in the extremes of Minnesota climate (especially if it outdoor playing was required).
Then again, if you're extremely happy with the service, process, value and experience that your dealer is providing; sit back, enjoy the ride, and don't waste time second guessing. If your daughter goes far on the instrument, it won't be the last clarinet she'll own. Letting her make the decision will be a nice experience and memory for her. You can't underestimate that.
I think everyone here might have slightly different tactics for acquiring a great instrument (possibly at a great price). We're not you, though, and a trusted dealer can give a person peace of mind.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2007-12-07 04:46
<<<It doesn't sound to me like the store you are talking to has much selection. Since you are in or near St. Paul, I would suggest you call Macalester and St. Olaf colleges. Both have pretty good music departments. Ask to talk to their clarinet professors and maybe their wind ensemble directors. Tell them briefly about your daughter and her musical interests and that she is ready for an upgrade and ask them what local music stores (if any) they send their students to.>>>
Is it OK to mention stores here? If so, I'd recommend a trip down to Groth Music in Bloomington, MN for a second opinion. They've got a large selection on display, and a lot of the salespeople are excellent players.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2007-12-07 15:14
Out of my stable of Yamahas, Lyriques and Selmers, I have to say that my Accent 920 sounds the best with my colleagues in our local clarinet ensemble; they are all R13 players. I tried a few at a local dealer and all were good, but the one I picked is really good. I did replace the barrel and it did not come with a m/p. My Yamaha Custom has the edge for power gigs, but the Accent blows away the YCL-450. If you're getting any stuffiness or inconsistent notes on the Accent, just keep trying more instruments until you find one of the really good ones. I agree that the resale value will not be in line with the big names, but the value, for me at least, is excellent. If I ever start selling off clarinets, the Accent will be the second last to go.
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-07 16:35
Welll ... we have a decision (smile). As I mentioned last night, we met with the band director this morning and had my daughter play both instruments (the Yamaha Allegro YCL-550AL) and the Accent CL920W for the band director "blindly." The only constant (as was recommended by this forum) was the mouthpiece, which again was a Vandoren M13, and the ligature which was originally recommended to my daughter.
My wife and I stayed out of the way in the corner so as not to give a reaction one way or the other. The band director agreed that the"second instrument," which happened to be the Yamaha, sounded better. Equally as important, though, she asked my daughter, in a very sincere manner, which one she like liked better, and my daughter said the Yamaha as well, and she seems to be happy now about her choice. By no means do I want to discount the importance of letting her choose as that presumably gives her a sense of commitment to her choice and a sense of control over the situation ... that's really important, and I thank the members of this forum who reminded us of that. By the way, its not that the Accent sounded bad by any means ... its just that for my daughter, at this point in her development ... the Yamaha sounded better.
Sooo, what we are going to do is keep the Yamaha and tell the dealer we want to purchase separately the Vandoren mouthpiece and ligature. I told my daughter that, in the future, if she keeps up her playing and shows interest and commitment that I would be glad to "upgrade" her again to an R13 other model she likes playing, and I would definitely try to cajole the band director into joining us on that expedition to get an "expert" objective ear listening to the choices.
So, here are my "big picture" conclusions that will hopefully help some other poor parent who is trying to do the right thing on "upgrade night" at school.
1. The suggestions that have been made about shopping around a bit at good stores and in getting an expert ear assisting in the process (even if it costs a bit) are very, very good ideas, but they require this "homework" be done before upgrade night. We had to react to the situation after the fact, so we simply, from a practical standpoint, had less degrees of freedom in this regard.
2. Accent is a legitimate brand that appears to source at least some of their clarinets from the same entity that manufactures some Buffet brand clarinets. In that regard, Accent could offer a value proposition, but right now they appear to be priced at the same point or higher than competitive instruments. In order to create a value proposition in the mind of a buyer, in my opinion, the buyer has to understand that Accent is offering a comparable instrument to a big name brand at a lower price. Also, through my untrained ear, the Accent still sounds quite good ... I recall hearing my daughter play the Accent CL920W for the first time earlier in the week after playing a plastic Accent model for 15 months, and it sounded remarkably better ("gee, so that's what a clarinet is supposed to sound like" -- smile). Also, according to our band director, the band is split about equally between Yamaha and Accent instruments, and it is a personal decision.
3. In this market, where its likely a lot of kids will end up at some point losing interest, resale value should at least be a consideration. Brand name will certainly help in that regard.
4. "Upgrade night" -- I will admit to still having some lingering concerns about this event given that the Yamaha unit simply didn't appear to be playing properly and the fact that the Accent brand is not as well known. Or, it could very well have been a coincidence. However, if someone has read this thread, they should be able to react to the situation. Just remeber that decisions need to be made quickly at this point, and you want to be prepared by doing your homework. Also, although we already had good experiences with our dealer from a service standpoint and we were able use the leverage the school's, and the band director's, relationship with the dealer to get even a higher level of service.
I hope other posters might supplement or debate these points more as you are the ones with experience on these issues. One thing I noticed is that, at least in the short time available, I couldn't find a good detailed source of information for how to buy a good "upgrade" clarinet for your child taking into consideration many of the points raised in this message string. There have to be thousands of parent a year considering this issue.
And lastly, I would just like to say one more time that I am profusely grateful for the time and effort all of you have put in your postings trying to help us out ... its helps me to renew my faith in mankind (smile)! And again, next fall when I need to go through all of this again with my son's Cannonball Excalibur alto sax, I may be in touch! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
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Author: Peter Cain
Date: 2007-12-07 16:47
Hi,
I'm a grad student at the U of Mn and I study with Burt Hara who plays in the Minnesota Orchestra.
Unfortunately, I just moved here in August, so I can't give you any advice about the local music store scene. If you are still looking for advice from someone who knows the stores around here, I would recommend contacting Nina Olsen at the MacPhail school in Minneapolis. She is the head teacher there and also teaches at Carleton College. MacPhail has a good reputation for teaching middle and high school students, so I would bet that she has been asked this question before, and maybe even knows some details about this store or the Accent model.
If you're just looking for a non-biased opinion about the horns, I'd be happy to hear your daughter play them and test them out with my own mouthpiece on it (also an M13). If you can make it over here to the Mpls campus of the U I'd do it for no charge. Just email me if you're interested.
In any case, let us all know what your final decision is.
Peter
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-12-07 17:23
Congratulations. When you are looking to upgrade beyond, also look at the pro Yamaha clarinets- they are superb as well.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-12-07 18:04
Congrat's as well! Perhaps one of the best advice seeking positive outcomes!
Kudos all around.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Richmond1958
Date: 2007-12-07 18:51
Thanks again all. Again, if anyone has any additional thoughts to my conclusions feel free to jump in.
Peter -- Thanks so much for the offer of your time and listening abilities. I attended law school at the U of MN, and my brother went to business school there. I think we are in good shape for now with a succesful conslusion that, looking back on it, makes a lot of sense to me now. I will keep your ideas in mind for the future.
Post Edited (2007-12-07 19:49)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-12-07 22:16
Congrats on the purchase. Glad to hear you and your daughter are both satisfied with the instrument.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2008-06-10 22:08
Just thought I'd post something mildly amusing considering my earlier participation in this thread.
This past Sunday, I ended up (on somewhat of an impulse) buying an Accent Baritone Saxophone on a well known auction site. Looks barely used (or should that be bari-ly used?), and I think I got it at a great price. I only need a reasonably decent intermediate bari at this point. We'll see how it works out.
Accent still seems to be a mysterious brand on the internet. Not much written about them. At this point, I think they're only sold from a small group of stores that deal directly with schools. The instruments, though, are obviously coming out of the same factories producing instruments for other more well known brands.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-06-11 15:00
If you stick to the big 4 (Buffet, Leblanc, Yamaha and Selmer) you will be better off in the long run. As a parent, you will be faced with repairs (probably) and then if the student wants to participate in band or orchestra on a higher level you want to make sure you've spent your money wisely. I HIGHLY advise to move to the Buffet or Yamaha at the dealer rather than the brand you mentioned which I (like several others) have never heard of and I've been playing 47 years. Maybe it's a model made specifically for that music store or music chain. But you are about to spend the price of a name brand for an off brand.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-06-11 15:22
LeeB,
I am interested in finding out how this bari looks and plays when you get it. I found the auction site info. The comment about Jupiter may be very accurate.
I am in the market for a good intermediate bari as well as a bass clarinet. All my other woodwinds are pro models but to find a value-priced bari and BC that can be used for shows would be great.
I look forward to your playing impressions.
HRL
PS The wheels on the case are a great idea.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2008-06-16 15:49
Well, the instrument arrived, and it looks substantial -- certainly a good value for what I paid for it. It's off at my tech at the moment for some tweaking, and then I need to wait for a mouthpiece that's back-ordered. I think it's going to serve my needs. The instrument is very similar to other Taiwanese saxophones I've seen.
It's definitely the right time of year to pick up that bass clarinet or bari, now that school has let out. If I was looking for another bass clarinet, I'd keep my eyes open for a stencil. In a previous year, I picked up a wood Thibouville Freres that was actually made by Buffet for a very low price. The deals are out there.
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2008-06-16 18:42
I would look at some of the online stores to see what this clarinet sells for. If you are buying from a local music store chances are they are charging you way above retail cost. I almost made this mistake when I was looking at new clarinets just recently. The local music store where I live was trying to sell me a Yamaha for full retail which was more than twice what WWBW was selling the same clarinet.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-19 17:23
Does Hyundai make this accent?
But, the seller should throw in the VD mouthpiece, ligature and a box of reeds of your choice.
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