 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Clive
Date: 2007-06-22 18:02
Hi list
Soon after getting my student intrument, I replaced the mps with a Clarke Fobes debut ( recommnded here) together with a Rovner light ligature. This combo worked pretty well.
Recently, I thought I'd go one stage further, and got a Van Doren B45 lyre. However, this has proved not to be a good move, and I find it rather "breathy" and with quite a nasty rattle at the end of a note. In both cases a Van Doren 2.5 reed is used, which is in the middle of the recommneded range for the mps.
I can hardly believe that the new mps is as bad as it is, at twice the price of the Clarke Fobes job, and do wonder if, as a newcomer, I am doing something not quite right. I wonder therefore if others use this particular mps and find it more satisfactory than I do?
tia
Clive
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jane84
Date: 2007-06-22 18:15
Did you try it before you bought? Some of the Vandoren mouthpieces can be quite nasty... It can also take a while to get used to a new mouthpiece, especially if they differ a lot in degree of open/closed, short/long facing etc. (don't know Fobes' mps). Or that model might just not fit you.
BTW: Glad to hear you're making progress!
-jane
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-22 18:17
How many reeds did you try and how did you prepare them?
You can't judge a mouthpiece with one reed. It's quite possible that you had a reed that was stronger than 2.5 or needed finishing.
Steve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clive
Date: 2007-06-22 18:30
Jane:
Making progress? Hmmm, matter of opinion! No possibility to try before buying as it wasn't available locally; just had to take a chance. I'll hang in there of course.
Steve: Well, tried three reeds actually, two vD 2.5 and a Rico 3 that happened to be available. There was no difference between any of them. I guess I should have tried a 1.5 strength reed which I will now do, although having moved up in strength, don't really want to go back.
Clive
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: redwine
Date: 2007-06-22 19:42
Hello,
If the Fobes worked pretty well, then go back to it! There's no reason that a plastic mouthpiece will sound worse than a rubber (VanDoren does use plastic in their rubber) mouthpiece. Instead of deciding that a more expensive (whatever) sounds better than a cheaper one, let your ears decide!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-22 19:43
Clive,
I just realised that perhaps I hadn't understood. As a 'newcomer', do you mean to the forums, or a beginner clarinetist?
Steve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clive
Date: 2007-06-22 22:47
Steve:
Not sure what you understood! However, I am a novice clarinettist.
Ben:
Thanks! Yes, even the Buffet B12 mps seems better than the Van Doren, and the Fobes Debut is a little better than that. It's been financially painful ( > x2 the price of the Debut), but I have learned a lesson. Just wish I'd asked for advice here first. However, to the present, seems nobody is actually using the vD mps anyway. I'd really like to hear someone tell me that it is a good mps. Anyone? The vD reeds are so much better imo than the Rico, that I took the mps on reputation. Once bitten?
Clive
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-06-22 23:20
Vandoren mouthpieces can be very good. The problem is, you need to try like 10 of the same model to find a good one. Just buying one with out trying it is a shot in the dark. But many professional players here in the states and abroad play them with great results.
Up untill yesterday, A vandoren M13 Lyre was my main mouthpiece and will remain in my case.
Can you send the mouthpiece back to where you got it and get a refund or try more of the same model?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-06-23 00:24
Most mailorder shops will ship you out at least three mouthpieces to "audition" before deciding one is best suited for you. Or at least that is true on this side of the pond.
Generally sopeaking, though, it's better not to monkey with your setup too much until you are sure that something really needs changing. Best to wait until a teacher recommends a change, if you are studying with someone. Even then, it's a good idea to try and go to a large, fulll-servvice store and try them out, preferrable with someone with a trained ear along for the ride.
Sorry I can't make store recommendations for the UK, as I have never been there, but maybe ChrisP can give you a better idea of a good shop in your area. He is an oboe finisher for Howarth's in London, and also plays clarinet. He is a regular contributor here, too.
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Scotti
Date: 2007-06-23 02:53
Bufclar,
Out of curiosity, what did you switch to? I'm curious, as you've long been a Vandoren supporter on here.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clive
Date: 2007-06-23 09:23
Thanks everyone. I guess I had assumed that with the van Doren name attached, there wouldn't be a QC problem.
Clearly mail orer retailing works differently in the USA, because I sincerely doubt that any retailer here would allow you to have several mps on "approval" . I remember that used to be the case when I was a schoolboy stamp collector, but that was more years ago than I care to remember!
I'll put the B45 lyre in the cupboard, and return to it when I'm halfway decent on the horn. Perhaps it may feel different then with perfect embouchure, although I'm not sanguine.
Bottom line is: I shan't take anything-clarinet related- on brand reputation in the future. Caveat emptor?
Clive
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-23 11:16
"although having moved up in strength, don't really want to go back."
That's an interesting attitude. One thing you will find is that experienced players probably have a whole stable of mouthpieces.....always searching for the holy grail. B45s seem to vary quite a bit if you do a Search here. When your finances recover you might try a B40, a 5RV (lyre or not) and an M13....and then a Portnoy BP02. Rico reeds have been around a long time. Also...Non Illegitimus Carborundum?
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-23 12:48
-- "Not sure what you understood! However, I am a novice clarinettist." --
Well in that case, I think the answer's quite simple. The B45 is not suitable for a beginner.
I had exactly the same problem when I bought my first clarinet from Hanson in Yorkshire. They gave a choice of either a 5RV or B45, but had no 5RVs in stock.
I spent a few weeks making awful breathy noises before I read somewhere that the B45 was too open for a beginner to control. So I kept it, but ordered a 5RV.
The difference was remarkable! Now, however, I've come back to the B45 and love it!
Steve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-23 15:15
Was endorsed (at some level, if not quite officially) by Jonathan Cohler, who claimed to use one.
I always thought Mr. Cohler had some interesting things to say about the use of soft reeds vs. harder ones, close vs. open facings, etc. He seems to have disappeared from the on-line forums, though at one point (1997) was very much out there.
Bill.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-23 15:57
Wow, you go back a long way Bill. Don't recall him but I always find the pressure to "advance" to stiffer reeds interesting. I guess "stiff" reeds ...3 and above...are great for symphonic or pro ensemble players but for the bulk of us 2.5 max is probably appropriate. So many teachers....including directors of bands who sub as clarinet teachers from the podium....seem to be intent on urging beginners to advance to harder reeds. Another clarinet fable.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clive
Date: 2007-06-23 17:15
Steve:
That's really helpful, thanks! I suppose that I was "mislead" by the blurb, which said that the B45 lyre had the sound of a B40 with the ease of playing of a B45. Clearly these are relative terms and do not apply to a newbie. I shall leave it in peace in the cupboard until I acquire greater expertise! I'll check out the 5RV in the meantime.
Bob:
Yes my teacher took away my Rico 1.5 and gave me a van Doren 2.5 strength, which at the time I couldn't blow at all. Of course now I really don't know what the problem was, and it's quite comfortable for me. His reasoning was that the stronger reeds are needed for the higher notes, but then I read in the Dr Downing booklet, that this is a myth. So looks like you are right, the urban myth is alive and well in the clarinet field!
Clive
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2007-06-23 21:27
I use a Van Doren B45 with various brands of 2.5 reeds. I like the V.D. very much. I also have a Borbeck, my second Borbeck, as the dog ate the first one. I switch off and on with the two. I got the Pomarico crystal jazz m.p. and so far just don't care for it, could have sent it back, but thought just maybe I would get to like it someday. It's so pretty! I also have the original m.p. that came with the Buffet in 1970 which I use occasionally. The VAn Doren I tried out in a store along with about 5 other brands, and it was the best one for me. I tried the Borbeck at the same time so bought them both that day.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-06-23 21:59
I am a bit befuddled by these responses. It is my experience that the Vandoren B45 (particularly the Lyre version - longer lay) is a very open mouthpiece. It's not even a matter of beginner, just a matter of being really open.
Personally I have much better luck with the M15 and the NON-lyre M13.
Also in contradiction to some of the above posts, I have found particularly of late that the Vandoren mouthpieces are VERY consistant. I have yet to find the wide variations in quality from one to another of the same facing that used to be the case with mass produced mouthpieces some 20 years ago.
If you can exchange or are willing to try other Vandorens, I and many others have had lots o' luck with the M15 and M13s.
Good luck,
.........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-23 22:15
Paul,
I will leave the details to those more experienced than me, but to put it simply, an open MP is not suitable for a beginner, because they haven't had enough experience in controlling their embouchure.
The 5RV has a narrow tip and short lay. As a beginner I found it excellent.
The M15 and M13 are as far from the B45 as you can get. I believe they have the narrowest tips of the Vandoren range.
Steve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2007-06-23 22:42
Hello Clive; this mpc from Vandoren is their second most open facing, after the 5JB. I thought that it is quite good with a number 2 Marca reed (Pete Fountain's is a 2 1/2 Marca); this is the same reed that I enjoyed on a Selmer C95 with its huge chamber (inside the "duckbill"). These reeds have a thick body as the Vandoren V12 but come in softer strengths. Check to see how big inside the chamber is, and its opening to the mpc bore, most Vandorens are small in there. I am louder than you, I bet, Ken
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clive
Date: 2007-06-23 23:47
Thanks everyone:
Clearly I cannot comment on the technical aspects, but what I can say is that the B45 lyre is indeed very open compared to ( say) the Clark Fobes Debut or the one supplied with the B12.
I think it's probably best for me to stick to the Debut for the present until I gain a bit more experience. I suppose I was seduced by the fact that the Debut was noticeably better than the Buffet unit, and thought I could make another improvement: wrong! Clearly there are no free lunches :-(((
Best
Clive
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vrat
Date: 2007-06-24 12:05
You can try to have someone to reface it.
I am using vandoren 5jb that didn't play very well when I got it, but Dave Spiegelthal refaced it so that it is my favorite now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-06-24 18:35
Vandoren mouthpieces can be excellent. However, they make about 20 different kinds and probably only two of them will work for any given player (which, when you think about it, is why they have to make twenty different kinds! :-D ). Playtesting is *essential*.
There are companies in the UK who do try-before-you-buy. Wood, Wind & Reed in Cambridge is one.
I played a 5RV as an 'improver'. It was great.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
