 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2007-02-07 01:58
Wow: everyone I know who quit a major gig like this, did it for someone of the opposite sex.
Seriously, he is not the only young person who ever quit a major gig to do something they like better. Jet-propelled people who go right to the top sometimes end up wondering why they get out of bed every morning. This should happen in your 40's or 50's, not your 20's.
That was a bold move, and there will be a lot of orchestra lifers who will be quick to judge. Watch this space. See how things are going in a couple of years. His indy band could end up a success or not, he could end up back in a symphony or teaching, who knows. He is still young and capable, and anything could happen. I wish him success.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-07 03:08
Rock more fun than classical music???
well... It's also a whole lot EASIER! You get instant gratification with rock and with classial you have to work a lot harder and study a lot more.
Kind of like giving up a job as a great chef in Paris or NY and opening an bagle shop.
But Rock does have a lot of good things to it. I personally love all 4 of the chords that rock uses- no doubt, they are great!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-07 03:16
skygardener wrote:
> Rock more fun than classical music???
> well... It's also a whole lot EASIER!
You seriously have to listen to better rock or blues - once you get past the 3 chord bands things get a lot harder. John Mayall or Paul Butterfield sound deceptively easy (heck, a few chords and 12 bar blues - what could be easier?)
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-02-07 03:31
...but the SERIOUSLY RICH musicians aren't in Classical...they're in Rock
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-02-07 03:36
Kinda off topic but I think Robin Williams once said *something along the lines* of "One of the greatest momements in life is the realization of One's father as a mere human-being, and not a god"
I think this is true for me too. The realization was not sudden, but it was great
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2007-02-07 04:57
Props to him for doing what he loves. Just because he's a great classical player doesn't mean that he has to devote his life to it.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-02-07 05:19
skygardener wrote:
> I personally
> love all 4 of the chords that rock uses- no doubt, they are
> great!
I've been looking at sheet music from various rock bands -- not fake books, but actual scores -- which are available in your local-type music store. Some of the parts in some of the songs look like Stravinsky.
Steve Epstein
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-07 11:17
Mark Charette- "You seriously have to listen to better rock or blues - once you get past the 3 chord bands things get a lot harder. John Mayall or Paul Butterfield sound deceptively easy (heck, a few chords and 12 bar blues - what could be easier?)"
Yeah, I am stretching my point, but you know what I mean. The level of study of Classical and Jazz musicians is generally more thorough, IMO. And I am not saying that I don't like rock, but I think there are a lot of "famous" rock bands are not that complex and don't have a great understanding in comparison to "famous" orchestras. It's harder, just from a physical standpoint of technique. Jazz drums or Rock drums? Violin or Rock Guitar?
A determined adult with no musical ability can learn rock guitar and get really good in about 5 years- not so common on violin, right?
It's not all bad, and I there are a few bands I like a lot. But if for no reason than the long history, classical musicians have more things to study and think about when they learn.
Am I wrong? Was it Rock with the 500+ year history and not Classical?
-S
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-07 11:20
Well, Rock has evolved from folk music which has it's origins going back longer than 'Classical'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-07 11:41
skygardener wrote:
> Mark Charette- "You seriously have to listen to better rock or
> blues - once you get past the 3 chord bands things get a lot
> harder. John Mayall or Paul Butterfield sound deceptively easy
> (heck, a few chords and 12 bar blues - what could be easier?)"
> Yeah, I am stretching my point, but you know what I mean.
Not really. You're generalizing.
> The
> level of study of Classical and Jazz musicians is generally
> more thorough, IMO.
Academically? Probably. Practice wise? No way.
> A determined adult with no musical ability can learn rock
> guitar and get really good in about 5 years- not so common on
> violin, right?
That's nit really correct. In 5 or so years the average guitar player gets to 'community band" level, just like pretty much any other instrument. Get really good? Skill, dedication, practice. No different.
> But if for no reason than the long history, classical musicians
> have more things to study and think about when they learn.
> Am I wrong?
Yes. The history of music is "the history of music". Rock/jazz/blues/name your form is part of the evolution of the long history of music. More to think about & learn? Those "pesky cadenzas" that classical musicians fret about are the mainstay of rock, jazz, and blues, and indeed borrow heavily on the classical forms. Those invented solos are there to get from point A to point B, and any good musician of any ilk listens to those that came before for inspiration, including the rock musicians listening to "classical" (in the broad form - not limited to the Classical period)
I've done my time playing "paying gigs" as a rock/jazz/C&W musician trying to augment my income years back, and I can say that in my case there's no difference in the amount of effort one needs to put in for any genre of music to become "good" (i.e., make enough money steadily to put bread on the table). I got to the point of studio work, which IMNSHO has got to be some of the hardest work I've ever done, physically and intellectually.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-07 11:42
Chris P wrote:
> Well, Rock has evolved from folk music which has it's origins
> going back longer than 'Classical'.
And of course many of the themes in the standard "classical" repertoire are elaborations of those same folk tunes.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-02-07 13:44
. . . and the swapping back and forth between folk/classical/rock/etc. is a never ending process. It never really hit me about all this sharing of themes, and whole melodies until back in the late 1960s when I was listening to one of the first Supremes albums, and about half of their songs used Bach and other "classical" tunes. Since then I have heard so much classical music in rock songs that I guess the two genres differ basically in their instruments, style, and interpretation.
"It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a Mozart!
See him fly, up so high, in the sky . . ."
Eu
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-02-07 22:46
>Rock more fun than classical music???
>well... It's also a whole lot EASIER! You get instant gratification with rock and >with classial you have to work a lot harder and study a lot more.
That all depends on what you believe, really.
Nicholas Arend
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-02-08 00:01
For anyone disparaging the technical level of rock musicians, listen to Dream Theatre. I don't really like their music (metal or progressive rock isn't my thing), but they are one of the tightest ensembles I have ever heard. They do mixed meter better than many pro orchestras and string quartets and are incredibly adept technically. That being said, in my personal opinion, an amazing rock song is like great sex and an amazing classical piece is like being in love with someone for many years. I leave a great rock concert feeling ecstatic. I leave a great classical concert feeling like I've lived a whole lifetime in two hours. Both have their place.
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Author: columbus
Date: 2007-02-08 00:58
on the same lines as dream theater (but much more exciting imo)
is The Mars Volta. Check em out
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-02-08 03:00
Originally, rock was an example of a more relaxed(in terms of musical skill), and perhaps simpler, form of music, but in the last few years especially, rock has become an art of incredible musicianship, for those who choose to do rock that way.
Nicholas Arend
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Author: blokecalledpaul-drums-clarinet
Date: 2007-02-08 05:52
If you are able to understand the beauty and workmanship of different areas in music you are the more wise.
When i first spoke to my clarinet teacher on the phone 2 weeks ago i told her i play rock/jazz drums 17 years. instantly she said 'Have you got a drum kit at home?' im like yeah 'Will you teach me some funky beats on the drums, i love the drums and i feel embarrased when i play on the kit at the school i teach because all of my colleagues can hear'.
How cool is that. A skills swap.
Ok some rock stuff you classic heads might like to try (all ages)...
Funeral for a freind - Hours
Papa Roach - Infest
Stevie Ray Vaughan - (anything)
Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin
See how you get on with those.
Another thought. Who is doing more cover versions? The classic genere or the rock genere?
paul
If the world didnt suck we would all fall off ![[up]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley24.gif)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-02-08 06:45
Skygardener, I think maybe you are not familiar with rock music enough. Good rock (or any) music have the subtleties the same as any music, and the principals are just the same. Maybe you are confusing 'famous' or 'successful' with 'good music'.
When you say someone can learn to play rock and be good in 5 years, you are probably imagining him sounding 'professional' and reminding you a lot of other rock musicians. To be creative and high level in rock is not as easy as you say. I remember listening to one Beatles song a few days ago nad noticing it was as musical and inteligent as a classical symphony, with very specific nuances.
Dream Theater mentioned above are ok. I have about five CDs of them but honestly I think they are just average in their level of their music...... They have a brilliancy occasionally though.
Paul - I just heard Stevie Ray Vaughan for the first time a couple of weeks ago, he is great!
"there's no difference in the amount of effort one needs to put in for any genre of music to become "good" (i.e., make enough money steadily to put bread on the table)."
I completely disagree this is what is considered "good". I refused so many paying gigs, with a very decent pay, exactly because it wasn't the music I wanted to make. So by accepting these gigs I would make a lot more money, but the music I was making would be bad....... Because most people like music based on what genre it is, there is a ver ysmall market for certain typoes of music, regardless of how goo/bad the actual music is.
Post Edited (2007-02-08 06:52)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-08 07:41
I clearly have to repeat myself- "It's not all bad, and I there are a few bands I like a lot."
The fact that you all are giving examples of this or that performer only strenghten my point- they are exceptions to the norm. Those few really great musicians (and I don't dispute the quality at all, I like them too), don't even scratch close to the majority.
But IMO, if I go into a CD store and go to the classical section or the rock section, I think that MOST of the classical artists know their instruments better than MOST of the rock artists.
And I will say it again for no reason at all- I like and respect a lot of those great "exception" rock artists, but the level that they are at is not the norm- it's way higher than the norm.
-s
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-08 11:00
skygardener wrote:
> it's way higher than
> the norm.
OK skygardner. Tell me 10 contemporary "classical" composers you like - composers alive today without looking into a reference book - and the names of 20 of their compositions.
Rock has essentially a 60 year history, not a 500 year history, so we're just comparing apples to apples this way.
Are there any Mozarts or Beethovens or Bachs or Brahms in rock music? Maybe not, but there's always Frank Zappa.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-02-08 12:21
Skygardener, I don't see how the 'norm' is relevent when comapring rock and classical music.
You said: "Rock more fun than classical music??? well... It's also a whole lot EASIER!"
Of course I assume you must include good rock music and good classical music in there. You can't say classical music is harder, and exclude all the rock music that has the same amount of creativity and musicality in it as any good music, which seems to be what you are doing.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-08 12:49
since I am so much in the minority there is clearly something wrong with me in this subject.
I retract my opinion.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-08 13:04
skygardener wrote:
> I retract my opinion.
You thought everyone agreed with you?
When you give an opinion in a public forum you need to be prepared to defend it. You might be right.
Arguments over "which music is harder" or "which music is best" will always bring out passions in people. What did you expect?
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Author: blokecalledpaul-drums-clarinet
Date: 2007-02-08 13:10
skygardener if you would like to seek musical brilliance from rock musicians try some of these....
Joe Satriani (Guitar), Geddy Lee (Rush), Neil Peart (Rush), Paul Gilbert (Mr Big), Jimmy Page (Led Zep), Jo Jo Mayer (Drums), Jake E Lee (Badlands, Ozzy), Zakk Wylde (Black Label Society), Nuno Bettencourt (Extreme), Stevie Ray Vaughan, Hendrix.................................... . . . . . . . . . . .
...and many more.
paul
If the world didnt suck we would all fall off
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-08 13:16
I must say that I am a bit surprised that I am the ONLY one with this opinion.
Since there is noone else that has the same opinion then I am clearly wrong. I accept my wrong-ed-ness with open arms. Sorry all.
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Author: blokecalledpaul-drums-clarinet
Date: 2007-02-08 13:24
Just your opinion is all. If we all thought the same stuff and agreed on everything life would be boring.
We all have opinions on some subject that a majority would shoot down in flames!
paul
If the world didnt suck we would all fall off
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-02-09 03:47
There are no universally correct opinions...embrace your own opinion, and the fact that it would have no significance if everybody agreed with it.
Nevertheless, I think a lot of people here (including me) kind of set up a straw-man and shot it down, so to speak.
I think Skygardner's argument was exaggerated a bit.
Nicholas Arend
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2007-02-09 12:43
All music starts as 'folk music' (Louis Armstrong: "All music is folk music- I never heard a horse sing a song!") and leads to technical developments, some of which are embraced and held up to be the true definition of the genre, and some that are shot down by begrudgers.
Condescension toward 'other styles' is universal- the classical snob, the jazz snob, rock snob etc. all come in 57 varieties ("rock music begins and ends with rockabilly", "indie rock is the last true rock" "The Beatles were the last good pop band" "Jazz died with Charlie Parker" "Playing on changes is a dead end, free jazz is the new thing" "Free jazz is for players who can't play" "Rock musicians are morons and classical music is the only real music but I couldn't improvise a simple blues solo if you put a gun to my head") etc.
When you say "rock musicians" (guitar), do you mean Buddy Holly or Allan Holdsworth?
When you say "jazz clarinet" do you mean Johnny Dodds or Ken Peplowski?
When you say "classical musicians" do you mean Andres Segovia or Kazuhito Yamashita?
The same holds true in traditional music idioms such as Irish dance music, Bulgarian dance music, bluegrass etc.
Quotes about rock from A to Z:
."Most bands, when they progress, they progress up their own arse"- Malcolm Young, AC/DC
"I always found the sort of in-vogue guitar styles to be rather...dreary"- Steve Howe, Yes
"Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"- Frank Zappa
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2007-02-09 13:04)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-09 12:50
"Most bands, when they progress, they progress up their own arse"- Malcolm Young, AC/DC
HAHAHA!
That's made my day!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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