 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Connor
Date: 2006-07-21 17:58
Hello all,
Im about to take my Yamaha (custom G CS) in for some minor work. Im curious if it would be worth the money to have my tech. put corks in the upper joint of the horn, specificaly the throat tones.
Thank you
Connor
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2006-07-22 00:29
Hard to say. Are you having issues with your clarinet? If not, I personally would wait until I needed a repad/overhaul and do it then. BTW, make sure your tech is accustomed to fitting cork pads.
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Bruno
Date: 2006-07-22 04:22
I had cork pads put into the A and A# throat keys and the bis keys when I bought my R13 years ago. I've never been sorry. They're still perfect.
b/
|
|
|
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-07-22 09:17
For years I've played a R13 which had a regular bladder pad on the register key. After that for years I've played a R13 that had a cork pad on the register key. I never noticed any difference. Both pads (bladder from 1992, cork from 1999) are still in completely good condition.
The only reason I know bladder pads can cause a problem is they sometimes make a hiss, but I never had a hiss from a bladder pad on soprano clarinet.
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-22 09:47
Get your clarinet cork padded almost throughout - if possible, down to the Ab/Eb key on the bottom joint (though if this isn't possible, just down to the RH 'sliver' key pad), and the rest of the large pad cups in high quality leather pads.
You won't look back after having this done.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
|
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2006-07-22 13:36
what Bruno said...
'years ago, and they're still perfect'
l
cork pads last for a VERY long time
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-07-22 13:54
I respectfully beg to differ a little with Chris here.
It is not so much the type of pad, but the quality, and they way they are installed, and whether the key cup size (relative to the tone hole diameter) and concentricity of the key cup over the tone hole make the smaller diameter pads (cork and leather) appropriate.
Claribass, I have never encountered a hiss problem with high quality bladder pads, well installed, with appropriate venting, on a soprano sax (EDIT correction - "clarinet", not "sax" - thanks Claribass fro pointing it out), except on the register key, where I always use a frustum-shaped (i.e. decapitated cone) cork pad, to reduce turbulence in the air rushing in and out of the hole, hence making this air movement far more efficient.
If they are accurately installed, cork pads DO tend to be a significantly noisier as they slap down against a tone hole, particularly for the normally-open keys.
I have often encountered seating unreliability associated with leather pads, especially for the large key cups. This is because unlike on a sax, the tone holes are usually contacting these lower-diameter pads very close to the circumference of the pad, where there is a curvature, and less support from the felt. Although cork pads are also of smaller diameter, this is not such a problem, because the cork is well supported to very close to circumference of the pad.
Definitely do not install cork pads until there is excellent precision in the pivots, and blemish-free edges on the tone holes. This means you need a considerably better-than-average technician.
Post Edited (2006-07-23 02:18)
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-22 15:18
That's it - the success of cork pads is dependent on mechanical reliability and perfect toneholes.
If I can, I like to recut the tonehole rims (or bed places) to ensure they're spot on before attempting to seat any kind of pad on it. If that's not possible (say the toneholes are really badly chipped) then bushing the tonehole with PVC or ebonite and recutting a new tonehole and bedplace is the only successful option. Just be sure you measure the diameter of the original tonehole and keep a note of it before bushing.
But you will find that the majority of wooden bodied clarinets of any quality have imperfections in the bedplaces, and have to be sorted out before repadding.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
|
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-07-22 15:56
Gordon, maybe I wasn't clear I meant only the register pad also. But as I said, I never had a hiss or any problem with bladder pads on soprano clarinets (not sure why you said soprano sax?). I have one on my bass register key that causes a hiss, and it is impossible to make the ventilation bigger, so I'll try a cut cork pad (a regular one will not work good enough). Thanks for this suggestion!
Chris, I'm wondering why you think cork pads are better than other pads?
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-07-22 18:40
If you want the cork pads on the top joint the best combination would be (like Chris said) cork and leather pad combination. I have nothing against skin pads but they just don't last long. Good quality and properly installed cork pads will outlast most of the pads on the marked. The problem is that they are too noisy (at least for my taste) and usually are installed incorrect, that is, without removing (rounding) the sharp edge of the pad. This creates a problem: With time these pads get compressed and become shaped like this: / \ ("A" shaped) The sharp edge creates unnecessary turbulence around the edge which affects the tone in a negative way.
Gordon said:
> "I have often encountered seating unreliability associated with leather pads, especially for the large key cups." <
____________________________________________________________
An experienced with leather pads technician never has this problem. It's simply not an issue for smaller bore instruments like Buffet, Yamaha etc.
The big bore clarinets like Selmer CT etc., do not have tone-hole undercutting. To compensate for that tone holes are slightly larger than tone holes on Buffet clarinets. The solution is to install the leather pad one size bigger than the actual size of the cup. This way the leather pad will act like a 'stepped' skin pad. There are only 3-4 pads that require this type of treatment on big bore clarinets.
Gordon said:
> "It is not so much the type of pad, but the quality, and they way they are installed, and whether the key cup size (relative to the tone hole diameter) and concentricity of the key cup over the tone hole make the smaller diameter pads (cork and leather) appropriate." <
____________________________________________________________
What are you talking about? Are you saying that 17mm leather pad is smaller that 17mm mm skin pad? If you're comparing leather and cork pads with 'STEPPED' skin/bladder pads please indicate so. Otherwise that's ridiculous.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-07-22 22:12)
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-07-23 02:50
Claribass, thanks for pointing out my "sax" error. I have edited it. And thanks for the clarification. I think we are are on common ground.
Vytas, I think you have quoted me without the rest of the context, where I attempted to explain why. In doing so, along with your comments, you seem to be making the implication that any decent technician can successfully put leather pads anywhere on any clarinet. It is not true, and could be seen as quite insulting.
I don't think you are addressing the quite common situation when the inside diameter of a key cup is hardly any greater in diameter than the diameter of the tone hole edge....
A leather pad has no overlap of the key cup rim, and also has a less defined, more rounded edge compared with a bladder pad (simply because leather is about 15 times thicker). These two factors combined, make any leather pad about 3 mm less in EFFECTIVE diameter. There are DEFINITELY quite common situations where this reduction in diameter makes the pad unreliable. It would be trying to seal very close to the edge of the pad, where the surface is not a flat face. If the key cup is slightly misaligned with the tone hole, which is VERY common, then the situation is even worse, because PART of the tone hole is in contact with the flat face of the pad, and part of it is in contact withe the curved surface near the edge of the pad.
If you had much experience in repadding articulated G# keys, then you would KNOW that the above is an important consideration.
Of course on any half decent saxophone, the leather pads are not a problem at all, because the key cups, and hence the pads, are large enough that the sealing line is nowhere near the non-flat edge of the pad.
This diameter issue is also significant for the installation of cork pads. In many cases, a cork pad, once again because it is of necessity smaller in diameter than a bladder pad, is sealing very close to the edge of the pad, so there is no room to carry out the ideal of rounding the edge of the pad. As I mentioned, a frustum shape can be used for a register key, but that is only because the vent is much smaller in diameter than the inside diameter of the key cup.
Perhaps I should mention that I have nothing against leather or cork pads on clarinets in situations where they are appropriate, but that is often not the case, for a whole variety of reasons. The important thing with bladder pads, is that a high quality type is used; then a decent life can be expected. Of course, if you are using your equipment for many hours per day, then you can expect higher maintenance than the average player experiences.
The issue of effective pad diameter just cannot be glossed over as easily as you have done.
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-07-23 05:25
Gordon,
I don't give a damn what your THEORY or OPINION about leather and cork pads is. I work exclusively on soprano clarinets. For about five years now I haven't touched any other instrument anymore, just clarinets. I work about 60 hours a week. This is not a theory or opinion. That's what I do. In a year I've overhauled so many clarinets that, I think it would be correct if I say, you haven't done this many in your entire live.
****Gordon said:
> "you seem to be making the implication that any decent technician can successfully put leather pads anywhere on any clarinet. It is not true, and could be seen as quite insulting." <
____________________________________________________________
That's exactly what I'm saying. Any decent technician CAN successfully put leather pads anywhere on ANY clarinet. There's an exception for the register key on some models (wrap-around key, M, N series Selmer register key etc.,) but this is related to stickiness and not the sealing of the pad in this place.
****Gordon said:
> I don't think you are addressing the quite common situation when the inside diameter of a key cup is hardly any greater in diameter than the diameter of the tone hole edge.... <
> "A leather pad has no overlap of the key cup rim" <
____________________________________________________________
I've already explained how it's done but you are ignoring it:
Take a larger (than the inside diameter of a key cup) leather pad. Force it into the key cup. Now it will overlap the key cup rim as much as a stepped bladder pad because it has nowhere else to go but overlap.
****Gordon said:
> If the key cup is slightly misaligned with the tone hole, which is VERY common. <
____________________________________________________________
I work on pro clarinets only so misalignment usually is carelessness of the owner. If that happens I put the key back in place. I do not work on clarinets made in NZ etc, so I wouldn't know.
****Gordon said:
> This diameter issue is also significant for the installation of cork pads. In many cases, a cork pad, once again because it is of necessity smaller in diameter than a bladder pad, is sealing very close to the edge of the pad, so there is no room to carry out the ideal of rounding the edge of the pad. <
>The issue of effective pad diameter just cannot be glossed over as easily as you have done. <
____________________________________________________________
Here we go! You are doing it again. Cork pad is smaller that the bladder pad??? Regular bladder pads have the SAME diameter as leather or cork pads. Are you talking about stepped (French style) bladder pads again?
I'll give you an advice how to deal in this situation. Take a cork pad which is larger than the inside diameter of a key cup (or chose as large as you need). File the lower part of the pad to fit the key cup. Now you made a stepped cork pad, which will overlap the key cup rim as much (or more if you want) as a stepped bladder pad. Install the pad and round the edge of the pad. That's it! Thank you very much!
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-07-23 08:27
Keeping calm, and quoting Vytas:
"I don't give a damn what your THEORY or OPINION about leather and cork pads is."
Perhaps I too, could make a statement of caring:
I DO care about any sensible theory, so long as it remains sensible.
I DO care about opinion, as long as it is well-founded.
I DO care about rational discussion.
____________________________________________________________
".....I think it would be correct if I say, you haven't done this many in your entire live. "
I'm not playing any childish games of "mine is better than yours", nor making any claims of correlation between hours of work and anything else.
___________________________________________________________
"..... Any decent technician CAN successfully put leather pads anywhere on ANY clarinet....."
I think we will choose to differ on that one. Perhaps it is relevant that you say you work on pro clarinets only. You are indeed fortunate to work on only clarinets of a superior standard of design and manufacture. My experience has been from the whole spectrum from pro to junk.
____________________________________________________________
Regarding leather pads overlapping the key cup, you quote me:
> I don't think you are addressing the quite common situation when the inside diameter of a key cup is hardly any greater in diameter than the diameter of the tone hole edge....... A leather pad has no overlap of the key cup rim <
"I've already explained how it's done but you are ignoring it:
Take a larger (than the inside diameter of a key cup) leather pad. Force it into the key cup. Now it will overlap the key cup rim as much as a stepped bladder pad because it has nowhere else to go but overlap. "
I apologize. I was not aware that you had explained this anywhere. I have not seen such a thing done. Yes, I agree, that if a leather pad has the cardboard of smaller diameter than the felt, then this is possible. However just a personal thing - I do not like to FORCE any pad into a cup, because it tends to distort the pad.
IMHO, a stepped leather pad is quite a good idea, but presents a problem.... Especially on LeBlanc and Noblet clarinets, if the exposed part of the pad projects out too far, then there is insufficient venting (which CAN be pretty well impossible to adjust by other means on LeBlanc without grinding away metal - think side keys). With two thicknesses of leather, i.e. 15 times thicker than bladder would be, plus the thickness of the felt sitting over the key cup lip...... IMO that would be too much for many clarinets unless the felt itself was extremely thin. I would be interested in a source of leather pads with reasonable thickness cardboard (so that most of the cup does not need to be filled with adhesive), cardboard less diameter than the felt, and with very thin felt.
____________________________________________________________
"I work on pro clarinets only so misalignment usually is carelessness of the owner. If that happens I put the key back in place. I do not work on clarinets made in NZ etc, so I wouldn't know. "
I can agree with your use of the word 'usually'. :-) Sometimes, more often than it should be, it is from manufacture, and sometimes is not easy to correct, especially for side keys without them hitting each other.
Of course, ANY technician can easily re-align a professional instrument's key cup in a direction perpendicular to the key cup arm. But on instruments where the misalignment is in the other direction, effectively where the key cup arm is too long or too short for the distance between the pivot and the tone hole, correction would mean cutting the key cup arm to extend or shorten it, which I have sometimes done on instruments that warrant it, or MUST have it. You are indeed fortunate not to encounter these problems. I have certainly found congenital alignment problems, including on recent model Selmer Paris instruments.
Regarding the NZ comment. This board is no place for insults. NZ makes no clarinets. And actually I know of NO substandard product made in NZ - Do you? (To try to make and market a substandard product here is a ludicrous concept when any large market is half a planet away, and when we have free trade with all countries, many of which are experts in making substandard products very cheaply.
____________________________________________________________
" Here we go! You are doing it again. Cork pad is smaller that the bladder pad??? Regular bladder pads have the SAME diameter as leather or cork pads.....
I'll give you an advice how to deal in this situation. Take a cork pad which is larger than the inside diameter of a key cup (or chose as large as you need). File the lower part of the pad to fit the key cup. Now you made a stepped cork pad, which will overlap the key cup rim as much (or more if you want) as a stepped bladder pad. Install the pad and round the edge of the pad. That's it! Thank you very much!
I congratulate you on filing a neat step around a cork pad. That would be pretty difficult to do evenly and neatly. It would be nice to be able to hold the pad in a bench motor or lather while doing it. Any suggestions for that, without having a special collet for each pad size?
Yes indeed, that would be a solution. I have never seen it done, even on instruments that I come across that have been cork-padded by technicians in USA.
What I HAVE seen and used (on oboes) is a diagonal chamfer on the back edge and side of a pad. Now this is not the same as a step, because it does not allow the pad to cover the outside diameter of the key cup while at the same time projecting very LITTLE from the key cup, which as mentioned earlier, is needed for some instruments (but not oboes, which are typically designed to have more pad projecting.
Note the stepped cork (possibly agglomerated) pads in the photo at http://www.novitasrosas.com Click on Welcome/Products/Music
____________________________________________________________
I reiterate what I wrote before, that cork and leather are appropriate only for some situations. A technician is indeed fortunate if he is working only on instruments where these pads can be universally used.
I guess we are coming to the job from different perspectives.
Vytas, have you yet seen Kraus's new "Omni" synthetic pads, which seem to be molded in one piece. They have a step, and are available with varying amounts of step thickness. With any luck, they will stand the test of time, and make this entire discussion obsolete, along with cork, bladder and leather pads.
Post Edited (2006-07-23 08:39)
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-07-23 14:37
Gordon wrote:
> I reiterate what I wrote before, that cork and leather are appropriate only for some situations. <
____________________________________________________________
Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-07-23 14:38
If you have to make your postings personal attacks then don't post.
|
|
|
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
