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 Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-11 21:59

I have this metal clarinet whose lower UJ cork needs to be replaced.
The old cork was really thin (like half a millimeter) yet still a tight fit and I wonder whether I really want to go into the hassle of sanding down a new cork meticulously or simply go the "old fashioned" route and wind thread round the tenon or even use suitable O-Rings.
What would a professional suggest?

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-12 11:05

Buy a sheet of thinner cork.

May I suggest:
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/cork-100.html
(I have no connection with this business)

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: John O'Janpa 
Date:   2006-03-12 14:08

I'm not a professional, but for the short term, I've had decent results using dental floss. Keep some in my gig bag for emergency quick fixes.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-03-12 16:07

Make sure if you're using thread that you either wax it or grease it well to provide a good seal.

Some people swear by a beeswax and tallow mixture for cork grease, but on metal clarinets any synthetic grease will be suitable.

Chris.

Post Edited (2006-03-12 16:07)

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-12 19:03

Gordon,
the problem is not the thickness the cork (I'm quite good at sanding meanwhile) sheet but the fragility of the corking per se when it has been sanded down to appropriate dimensions. Half a millimeter of cork isn't all that much - especially when glued to a metal surface - and virtually every grain is a spot of weakness.

But I like that dental floss idea. Will report back in any case.

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-13 04:58

Yes, ultra-shallow grooves are just as much of a nuisance as ultra-deep grooves.

How about plumbers' teflon, thread-seal tape.

Or consider turning the groove deeper if there is enough metal there.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: corks&pads 
Date:   2006-03-17 18:13

Sounds like a good application for "tech cork" (gummi).

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2006-03-17 20:34

I've overhauled many metal clarinets, most of which have very shallow tenons. and thin cork is the way to go, IMHO. It is also possible to use standard cork thickness and use a very fine-cut wide file (generally sold for use on plastics) to file down the extra thickness of cork without tearing it up, and finishing the job with a long strip of sandpaper of the same width as the cork, wrapped around like a belt. I'm not sure I'd use thread; and Teflon (plumbers/pipe) tape is very much a temporary solution, as it 'cold-flows' and eventually oozes out of the joint. The "gummi", if I understand what it is (like automotive gasket cork-rubber composite?) is too prone to tearing in thin sheets. Just my opinions.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-18 19:44

David,
just for kicks (and to check the result of the other overhauling tasks) I got some electricians' tape - three times round the tenon and it was already a tad too much. While I have good confidence in my manual skills I think getting a cork (of the thickness of three layers of tape) round the tenon without damaging it would be quite a stretch. [frown]

I took dental floss (roughly three rounds again) and it's tight. Gives me time to ponder about alternatives. And floss matches my selfmade EVA pads a lot better...

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-03-18 20:20

Talking of synthetic pads, a while back I repadded my Keilwerth Oehler system with the (surplus to requirements) Pisoni high density white foam pads and a couple of Valentino pads for the larger cups, but the largest pad is a white leather bassoon pad as I haven't got any 16mm synthetic pads. All in all these are a lot more airtight than the white leather pads it previously had, now I can get some suction on the top joint.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: corks&pads 
Date:   2006-03-19 12:38

Hi Dave - I use natural cork on tenons, but have taken off some "gummi" cork. It appears to be pretty flexible. I don't like the way it shapes or smells (when it's new), but I thought this might be a good application for the stuff.

Some of the last natural cork sheets that I got were of pretty low quality. If that's the best that we're going to be able to get, eventually we'll all be going to synthetics.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-19 15:29

I still wait for the first manufacturer to use standard O-rings (and matching grooves)...should be a whole lot easer to manufacture and maintain.

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2006-03-19 17:56

Ben,
Agreed! Tradition can actually be counter-productive sometimes. The double-reed world has finally begun to embrace O-ring staples rather than the traditional cork; I agree that it's past time for the clarinet world to do the same with our tenon joints.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-20 02:39

Cork has some amazing and unique properties.

O-rings are fantastic for their engineering purpose for which they were designed - sealing a junction against often very high fluid pressure, when that junction needs SOMETIMES to be dismantled. As a general rule, they are not used where regular axial movement is required, along with a firm seal, because they do not serve this purpose particularly well. This is partly because of the high friction of typical elastomer materials, but for a variety of other reasons. IMHO

I have worked on an Australian-made oboe with )-rings in the tenons. The almost unavoidable sudden jerk during assembly, IMO, put some keys at significant risk of damage at every assembly operation.

An 0-ring must have some freedom to expand (become oval) in its groove. This means it can roll, making a accurate position of a tenon within a socket perhaps a little precarious. By contrast, cork has a "Reynolds number" of 0; when it is squashed in one direction it does not expand in a right-angles direction.

O-rings are less accommodating of sealing against grain blemishes, and in a tenon situation, typically do not retain lubricant well. Perhaps there are new materials such as teflon impregnated, foamed elastomer, with a sealed surface. Isn't that getting pretty close to cork? Cork is a pretty amazing material, especially if it is blemish-free, which nowadays is unfortunately rare for anything other than cork pads.

Note that Scimonetti offers an O-ring based tenon system for saxes...
http://www.scimonetti.com/corkless.html

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: BobD 
Date:   2006-03-20 13:59

Gordon, I do respect your opinions and expertise but am inclined to believe that the disadvantages of O-rings can be overcome with R&D. The elastomer formulation(s) in current use for O-rings were developed pretty much for fluid containment. Perhsps different formulations would be appropriate for air specific to the clarinet. I agree that cork is a unique and wonderful material for many uses and O-rings may never replace it for tenons.....but who knows for sure. The current cork substitutes used for wine bottles sure aren't fun to work with and there seems to be a gradual trend to screw caps.

Bob Draznik

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2006-03-20 14:06

To add to Bob D's note, I used to specify and test elastomers for sonar applications (years ago), and there's a huge variety of formulations available for O-ring applications. I'm confident that it wouldn't be a huge task to find materials that work very well in a low-pressure, frequent-use application such as clarinet tenon joints (or oboe reeds).

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: pewd 
Date:   2006-03-20 14:22

i saw a bass clarinet 2 weeks ago with o-rings on the lower joint, where you attach the bell. i think it was a yamaha. i'll be at that school again in a few days, will take a closer look.

------------------
Edit:

It was a Yamaha YCL221.

I found this on Yamaha's site: "New joint system
The rubber rings surrounding the cork help to prevent air leaks, ease assembly and prevent keys from binding."

I'll take a much closer look at it tomorrow, and try to get a picture or 2.
---------------

- Paul
private teacher - Dallas, Texas


Post Edited (2006-03-20 14:30)

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2006-03-20 15:07

Belt-and-suspenders approach! Probably works very well, though. The rubber O-ring at the outside rim takes all the impact when the bell is inserted, saving the cork edge (where most cork failures occur), and the inner O-ring takes some of the 'wobble' out when the instrument is assembled. Yep, looks like a good design -- bravo Yamaha!

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-21 09:01

But why both?

I wonder if the )-rings are so that the fit of the tenon timber in the metal does not need to be so accurate.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-21 11:36

Something for everyone - the techies and the traditionalists. [wink]

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-03-21 13:44

The Lyons plastic C clarinet has used O-rings - a single one for the bell tenon and the original mouthpiece supplied with them has a double O-ring tenon.

The problem I found with them is the way the O-rings roll when the mouthpiece or bell is pushed on, and they tend to recover pushing the mouthpiece or bell out a bit.

The plastic Yamaha bass clarinet has the O-rings on the middle tenon as well.

Depending on the type of rubber used, is it wise to grease O-rings? I know some oils or greases will damage rubber, so it's a case of matching up the right grease with the type of rubber used in O-rings.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-21 17:01

> The problem I found with them is the way the O-rings roll when the
> mouthpiece or bell is pushed on, and they tend to recover pushing the
> mouthpiece or bell out a bit.

That's why one shouldn't push the parts together but rather screw them (no pun intended). If properly designed and lubricated this shouldn't be so much of a problem.

The material used in O-rings is very robust, the "piston ring" types are designed to be used in an oily environment. I'd think it's safe to believe that if a lube doesn't harm the wood it won't harm the rings either. And they're easily replaced, at least as long as it's a standard size.

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-21 20:31

A variety of materials is used for 0-rings, simply BECAUSE an environment that wrecks one, needs a different material.

I once had an occasion to need a 0-ring that resisted both acetone and "white spirits" (similar to lighter fluid). The material "Viton" was too firm. My quest failed.

However as long as a SUITABLE grease is used, there should not be a problem. However as long as grease is still needed, I cannot see that there is any gain in using 0-rings instead of cork. There are very slight advantages, alongside significant disadvantages, including the rolling as mentioned, and the assembly 'jerk' just after an 0-ring gets compressed, which puts levers and bridge keys at greater risk of collision.

Also, currently-available 0-ring materials seem not to RETAIN grease anywhere near as well as cork does, on the particular surface where it is required. I, for one, do not want to have to apply a grease for every assembly. For a good cork, with good grease, application once in about 30 assemblies is typical for me.

BTW, cork is gradually wrecked by Vaseline. So cork, too, needs an APPROPRIATE grease, as has been discussed many times here.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-21 20:53

> For a good cork, with good grease, application once in about 30 assemblies
> is typical for me.
Provided the cork is "saturated". My new clarinet's corks are still very thirsty; a hefty smear after practicing seems to disappear overnight. (It's gradually getting better, though)

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-03-21 21:02

The Lyons clarinet bell has an alignment notch (not necesary on a clarinet bell), similar to the Vito 'PRAG' thingy (and like the socket rings on B&H Regent oboes to prevent them turning) - so this means the bell is twisted on to a certain point, and then pushed home - which in a perfect world isn't ideal by any means.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-03-21 21:15

> alignment notch
Hmmm. Why not a Gardena-type connector? (I herewith claim ownership of the term "1-click clarinet" [wink])

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: pewd 
Date:   2006-03-22 00:15

i looked at the yamaha bass again today. we had 2 instruments - both identical

center joint - both cork and one o-ring
belll joint - NO cork, 2 o-rings

i'll post photos later tonight.

there wasn't any literature describing whether or not they should be lubricated before assembly. i'm positive the kids (middle school) will manage to break the o-rings, probably fairly quickly, so i'm wondering where one goes to get replacement parts. i doubt Ferrees has them in stock yet :)

- Paul
private teacher - Dallas, Texas


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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-03-22 00:19

As for threaded tenons, and I mean threaded in that a thread is turned on the tenon as well as an internal thread on the relative socket, is it only Orsi that do this on the bell tenon on their top model clarinets (the 'Verdi' series - which also has a long top joint with different length inserts instead of a barrel)? And how reliable is this when it (inevitably) goes oval?


And as for replacement O-rings - where can you get replacement O-rings for Selmer SA80II saxes (apart from Selmer)?

Chris.

Post Edited (2006-03-22 11:10)

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-22 15:10

Look in your Yellow Pages phone book - does the whole world have Yellow Pages? - under seals. A specialist supplier of seals to the engineering trade will have hundreds of types/sizes of 0-rings. You may find that 100 cost less than a set of 6(?) from Selmer, or set of 3 from Yamaha.

Take one along as a sample.

For regulating screws, just use Loctite222 or equivalent instead. Much more reliable for securing the screw, while still allowing adjustments. Now why didn't Selmer use that???????



Post Edited (2006-03-22 15:15)

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: BobD 
Date:   2006-03-22 21:48

Mail order houses like Harbor Freight and Enco sometimes offer O ring assortments for a few bucks.

Bob Draznik

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: pewd 
Date:   2006-03-23 02:29
Attachment:  center.jpg (37k)
Attachment:  end.jpg (34k)

here are the pictures of the yamaha bass showing the o rings

- Paul
private teacher - Dallas, Texas


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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-03-23 08:02

They've changed the middle tenon O-ring configuration - the earlier ones had two O-rings with cork in between (like the bell tenon pictured above but with a strip of cork in between the O-rings).

Maybe it was good in theory but proved to be a pain in practice, so they ditched te 2nd O-ring.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-23 08:52

I note that we are discussing a bass clarinet. My experience of bassoon tenons and bass clarinet tenons, suggests that cork serves its purpose
more poorly as the diameter of the tenon increases.

IMO this is because: With a smaller diameter tenon, as we assemble it, we have to slightly crush a certain area of cork; with a large diameter tenon we may have to 'crush' a much larger area of cork. My guess is that the larger the tenon diameter is, the narrower should the cork be, otherwise we have to exert just too much force to fight that cork. Recorder makers seem to attend to this issue, whereas bassoon and bass clarinet makers largely don't.

A narrow cork offers less resistance to wobbling of the tenon. This could be overcome with two narrow corks, separated. I suppose two 0-rings are getting close to this concept. So a well-designed, double 0-ring set-up may be preferable for large diameter tenons. I suspect that the ideal design, though, would have a fairly large 0-ring thickness, which needs a deeper groove, which compromises the strength of the tenon. :-)

No wonder tenon corks are so unfunctionally thin on bassoons!

I can understand why Yamaha is experimenting with this, and sympathise with their possible dilemma.

Another possible driving consideration is that 0-rings, and installation of them, is far cheaper than for cork.

Perhaps that is why Yamaha is experimenting with other options.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-03-23 08:53

"Mail order houses like Harbor Freight and Enco sometimes offer O ring assortments for a few bucks."

In my experience, O-ring assortments come in many diameters, but only one thickness for each diameter. More often than not, the thickness I want, which is critical, is not in the assortment.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-04-01 21:00

Okay, today I went to my friendly dealer who handed me a strip of thin thin cork. I chamfered it, applied glue to tenon and cork (the trickiest part was being patient enough to let the contact glue dry in peace), rolled, pressed, let harden. Sanded. Withstood the temptation to sand "just some more". Apply cork grease and ... cautiously ... mmmph ... yeah! Looks like new. Definitely better than floss or plumber's tape.
What an amazing material this cork is.

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: corks&pads 
Date:   2006-04-02 01:02

Hi Ben - I assumed that you'd already taken care of this before now. The majority of wooden clarinets take 1/16" cork for tenons. Metal ones often use 1/32" thickness. If you should ever need to do this again, cut the strip that you'll need from 1/32" cork, then take a small object like a jeweler's peen hammer and tap the inside surface lightly and repeatedly all over. Any smooth, round, metal object will do--just have it on a hard surface and tap it repeatedly on the side that will be glued down. This not only gives the cork more flexibility, it gives it a tendency to curve in the right direction.

As for being patient while the glue dries...YEP! I always try to make sure I have something else to do that will get me entirely away from the bench for 15-20 minutes, or so.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-04-02 08:33

I assumed that you'd already taken care of this before now.

There was a constant mismatch of "available time", "available inclination" and "available cork" in the past few weeks. Yesterday the planets magically were in tune. :)

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-04-02 11:18

"Any smooth, round, metal object will do--just have it on a hard surface and tap it repeatedly on the side that will be glued down. This not only gives the cork more flexibility, it gives it a tendency to curve in the right direction."

Hmm. my perspective differs a little.

First, I would prefer it did not have a greater tendency to curve, because this adds the risk of it sticking in the wrong place around the tenon.

Second, the cork would have to be in a mighty bad state to need this treatment to impart flexibility.

Third, I cannot see how it would "impart flexibility" without bursting many of those closed cells which give cork its unique resilient properties.

I would only consider doing this for a piece of lowish grade or dehydrated cork, 1/8" thick, curving around a 1/4" (?) diameter bassoon bocal!

But you may be in a much drier climate, in which case, the cork should be stored in some form of humidifier.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-04-02 16:17

I've found the most blemish-free cork tends to be a bit too compressable, and if used on a middle joint of an oboe or clarinet with metal lined sockets it becomes loose very quickly. It's alright for use on the bottom joint tenon or the upper top joint tenon where you won't mind it being an easier fit (especially when changing from one clarinet to the other using the same barrel), but where there's important linkages and the tenon is slightly wobbly it's no good.

At the other end of the scale, cork with too many hard lumps is also a pain when used on metal lined sockets as the lumps can be ripped out leaving holes in the tenon cork, and they can also cause wear in unlined sockets.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-04-03 01:35

"Blemish-free cork" . The only time I see it now is in the form of cork pads.

I agree with the issues just raised. But they are also related to the depth of the tenon groove, hence the pressure needed to squash it a given amount during clarinet assembly.

On a VERY rare occasion I will resort to composite cork, or a natural-over-composite-lamination, when the tenon groove is ridiculously deep for the particular situation, especially accounting for a sometimes very low friction in the socket, as Chris referred to. (Sometimes a polished, quality piece of timber can have as low friction as a metal lining.)

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: corks&pads 
Date:   2006-04-03 17:27

Hmm. my perspective differs a little.

Yep, but it works for me in situations where I need to get a thin piece of cork to bend around a tight radius. And, of course, we all know the old expression about opinions..."

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-04-04 11:27

It is much, much harder to get a THICK piece of cork to bend around a tight radius. And that is why I mentioned the bassoon bocal. :-)

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-04-08 11:39

I've just encountered another O-ring application, but not for the best - this time on a Leblanc Sonata (and probably some others higher up their line) - the thumb bush is threaded and sealed ONLY with an O-ring at the shoulder, and therefore (potentially) an easy way for water to get into the thread and cause hassle as there's no adhesive to seal the thread or grain, not to mention this one was loose causing the whole clarinet to respond poorly.

What's wrong with using shellac on thumb bushes? It's stood the test of time.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Mark Charette 2017
Date:   2006-04-08 13:46

Chris P wrote:

> I've just encountered another O-ring application, but not for
> the best - this time on a Leblanc Sonata (and probably some
> others higher up their line) - the thumb bush is threaded and
> sealed ONLY with an O-ring at the shoulder

Bouys & gulls,

Let's stop this misconception of o-rings being bad seals. I spent a few years as an engineer in hydraulic systems at nuclear plants. Well-designed o-ring systems have very, very few failures - that's why they're used so often in all industries. They can stand motion (linear, rotating) with little assembly/disassembly pressure.

BUT - they have to be well designed - the grooves have to be correctly created for the application, the o-ring material chosen for the right purpose, and dimensions of the o-ring have to be correct, and the two surfaces you wish to join need to be created with the proper tolerance and other characteristics.

In other words, slapping an o-ring into a badly cut groove and over-squeezing it is a sure way for early failure.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Cuisleannach 
Date:   2006-04-08 17:19

Interestingly enough, I was talking to a friend of mine about cork...he makes oboes and bocals for English Horns and Oboes d'Amour. For cork-on-metal applications he prefers using super glue to attach cork to bocals. Since super glue cures very slowly on metals he uses an accelerant to speed the process and prevent loosening. He basically soaks the cork with accelerant then applie the super glue to the metal (sterling silver, in this case), and puts the cork on, using care not to glue his fingers to the cork. He says this works better with wood as well, but the process is slightly different. He's not fond of contact cement (my favorite) as it tends to loosen on accidental exposure to bore oil.

I have wrapped my tenons with the silk thread (waxed) used to make oboe reeds. Works pretty well, particularly in emergencies, but I still prefer cork. I do wrap my recorder joints.

-Randy

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-04-08 18:43

He's not fond of contact cement (my favorite) as it tends to loosen on accidental exposure to bore oil.

Every "glue" containing solvents is prone to gooeying (is there a verb for that?) over time. These glues harden because something vanishes in the drying process. You add that something back - voilĂ , the gooey mess.

The contrary are glues where you add something in order to initiate hardening. When you blend these two components well, it's rather impossible to chemically remove one of the components afterwards - the glue remains stable.

When I am in a situation when I have to "build up" lost material (eg a worn screw thread in wood) or need a chemically resistant (and/or food safe) bond I take Araldite (no affiliation or endorsement).

--
Ben

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-04-08 23:16

He's not fond of contact cement (my favorite) as it tends to loosen on accidental exposure to bore oil."

I think he is using the wrong contact glue. I did tests, soaking a glue joint in oils and solvents, for weeks, without failure. That was using Evostik.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-04-09 00:25

Randy -

How well does your friend's solid silver cor anglais crooks complement Marigaux cors? Does he make his own design or does he copy Loree crooks?

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Cuisleannach 
Date:   2006-04-09 05:42

Chris P wrote:

> Randy -
>
> How well does your friend's solid silver cor anglais crooks
> complement Marigaux cors? Does he make his own design or does
> he copy Loree crooks?

I'm not really sure.....I do know he uses his own design, and it might be somewhat similar to the Dallas design. Unfortunately I left the double reed world a long time ago and I'm woefully non-conversant with most things double reed. I can certainly pass on his contact information to you, and I'm sure he'll talk your ear off about all you want to know.....he's good like that. I'll see him Wednesday....I thought I had his card but I must've misplaced it.

-Randy

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-04-09 05:57

When O-rings are in with properly-designed grooves, and operate against a smooth, metal surface, they are indeed very reliable.

However:

1. With their relatively small contact area, they may not be so successful against a surface such as timber which may have surface blemishes from the grain of the timber, and which may bee a little porous. Perhaps experimenting with O-rings on tenons is best left for plastic clarinets.

2. They are not widely used where joints need to be FREQUENTLY assembled and disassembled. Perhaps this is in part because if there is rubbing action of the 'rubber' during assembly, then a lubricant tends to be needed for EACH assembly. However I don't discount the possibility that some new O-ring material may have suitably elastomeric properties, and also some atoms of Teflon incorporated into the molecular makeup to reduce the need for added lubricant.

3. Assembly where friction against an O-ring is involved, tends to add a 'jerk' to the assembly process, as the O-ring suddenly enters the socket. Cork enables wonderfully smooth assembly. I have yet to encounter such smooth, controlled assembly with O-ringed tenons. Smooth assembly would seem to be fairly important in order not to crash keys and levers together.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-04-09 10:19

Cheers Randy - I was wondering if he was connected in some way with the Dallas company.

I use the standard Marigaux crooks that came with my cor, but the Howarth 2BM certainly makes a difference - I think they're based on a Loree (as were Louis before them) but it did play very well with one - but Marigaux have a wide socket so the art of wrapping a bit of paper around the cork is always a necessity when trying crooks by different makers (otherwise they'll just rattle around in my Marigaux's socket).


On O-rings again - I saw a load of oboe reeds used by a pro that had the double O-ring staples - but with not much in between them, only the O-ring at the base of the staple and at the point just below the reed socket top.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Cuisleannach 
Date:   2006-04-09 16:56

Perhaps the "jerk" of putting the parts together can be avoided (as I'm sure you wish could for the "jerk" writing this post!) by a slight design modification. It seems to be caused by the pop of getting the o-ring on the tenon into the socket. If you used a design so that the initial portion of the socket were tapered such that the o-ring was compressed gradually rather than all at one go, you could avoid the pop, sort of like the way cams are rounded to prevent excess accleration and jerk. I do realize this would make a weak point of the instrument even weaker, but it might allow for for things that work better than cork.

Of course, all with all of these issues, cork is looking more and more attractive.

-Randy

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2006-04-10 00:20

True. This would mean a conical flare in the bore of the socket, just at the entrance. (This is beneath the reinforcing ring, so compromise of strength would not be an issue). Wobble of the tenon is largely determined by the fit of the TIMBER - tenon to socket, so we would need a matching shape on the tenon.

Unfortunately, in my experience, when manufacturers have incorporated even slight tapers in the tenon and socket, it has made the tenon less secure. And the player can no longer adjust tuning in the centre tenon without making it very wobbly. So...

The socket bore could have a short cylindrical section of larger diameter, followed by the required conical section for smooth entry of the O-ring, followed by the the main, smaller-diameter cylindrical section. The tenon could be made to match. This would solve the wobble issue.

But, isn't cork , as it is used now, sounding a pretty attractive solution? If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Cork is an amazing material, with unique properties.

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 Re: Tenon Threading
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2006-04-10 08:40

I know it's not exactly a tenon or even on a clarinet, but the crook cork on my Yamaha 62 bari sax is still going strong - sixteen years on and it's still a good fit with any mouthpiece I use (Lawton) and others (Selmer, Yanagisawa, Otto Link) - except older Berg Larsens as they have a large bore, but I don't play on Berg Larsens.

Is this a testament to cork's legacy? Should be.

I know it's been said countless times before - but well maintained it should last for years. This is the proof.

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