 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetmom
Date: 2005-12-23 04:16
I suggested to my daughter to email the clarinet faculty at one of the schools she is apply to and ask if she might have the opportunity to meet with them while she is there auditioning. She will be for the entire weekend.
The school is very far from where we live and we can't afford to fly there numerous times to meet with the faculty especially since she doesn't even know if she will get accepted to the school.
She received two replies. One very nice, offering to meet with her and this is the other response, word for word.
"You've decided to send the same email to all three clarinet faculty.
Unfortunately, we are unable to tie up so much senior faculty time with every student who visits the blah blah campus. As such, we have asked Prof. blah blah to communicate with you and set up a meeting."
She was not upset but I thought the response was very "rude." Am I just over sensitive.
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Author: george
Date: 2005-12-23 04:27
You're over sensitive.
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Author: BJG
Date: 2005-12-23 05:32
I don't think you're being overly sensitive...you just seem like a sensitive person like me.
I personally think the letter was a little rude too.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-12-23 10:27
The first sentence is a little bit abrupt; the rest I don't think anyone could find fault with. Overall, not a bad, but businesslike, message from harried staff getting ready for audition time.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-12-23 11:00
I suppose there are two ways to review the response -
The staff is clearly small enough to be in communication with one another.
The staff is likely to ALWAYS be this busy - if the student body is large.
I would be more interested in finding out about the other facets of a school, given that an education involves more than a practice room and recital hall...
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2005-12-23 13:09
You are probably being overly sensitive. While the first sentence of the email is a little terse, this is just a problem with email communications in business where short answers tend to be seen as far more harsh than intended because the normal social cues of a voice communication (tone, facial expressions, etc.) are missing.
You were offered the chance to have your daughter meet with a faculty member. This is a nice offer. Faculty have full-time jobs teaching and running the university, and for most, this kind of recruitment activity is "over-time" added to a full work week. Once your daughter is a student she will have an advisor and typically that person will meet with her to give advice on negotiating the program or applying for jobs or grad school or other career concerns, and she will not be meeting with all of the faculty on such issues. This is how student advising works in universities.
As context, a student applying to a doctoral program in a top university where she or he is being heavily recruited would be fortunate to get the time of three faculty members in face-to-face meetings during the application process. Undergraduates typically meet with one faculty member. At least that has been true in the four major universities where I have held faculty appointments [in a social sciences department].
George
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-23 15:16
You've "decided"?????????
I view that as pretty rude of them.
Was this a school in the Chicago area? ( I only ask that as a student of mine who was applying for her masters degree had a similar rude experience in person).
There is the possibility that she will be assigned to a teacher and not have a choice in it until she attains the level of the "top" teacher there (or until that teacher has an opening).
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-12-23 15:41
How does your daughter feel about this? Is she wounded to the point that it would be difficult for her to overcome and move forward at this school? Since you mentioned it is quite expensive to fly there because of the distance from home, I would send some inquiries to some other schools and see how they respond. I agree that many professors are quite busy and perhaps this one was just a bit terse in his/her answer, but it was a bit "corrective" in tone. Maybe the prof. was a bit put off that she sent the same identical email to all three and he/she wanted a personal email. A bit of ego involved. Hope it works out for all of you.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-23 15:47
So, the nastygram came from some one who was offended that your daughter sent the same note to three schools. They're jealous of the possibility of loosing her and her tuition to a competitor.
YET, they offered a meeting --as she requested.
Let it go. And be sure to meet with prof. blahblah. Better in person than through the ether.
I recall working in UC, Berkeley's computer lab in the dark ages and seeing a primal word processor denying applications for admission to grad school in the Electrical Engineering Department --ending with "the competition was severe."
Bob Phillips
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-12-23 15:51
Bob Phillips wrote:
> So, the nastygram came from some one who was offended that your
> daughter sent the same note to three schools.
No, you mis-read. One of the 3 faculty at the same school noticed the same message was sent to all three faculty members.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-12-23 15:59
Was this her first choice?
Is it famous beyond reproach?
What I would do now is have her contact a student (one who is not a rah-rah squad welcoming committee member) there....and ask about the attitude of the place.
There are more fish in the sea.
And this applies to any career choice.
I perceived this same snotty attitude (assuming that the letter really reflected their mannerism) from a famous surgical residency program to which I applied. I X'd them off my matching form, and never looked back.
Years later, that snooty program has fallen from its lofty position, and the one I eventually wound up with is ascendant (for which I claim no responsibility...I have been gone too long).
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2005-12-23 18:10
Looking over the ensuing responses since my initial reply on this topic I would again remind everyone -- and the original poster -- that presumably the goal here is for the daughter to attend the best possible school. Meeting with faculty is to help provide information about the program which will let the daughter decide if this is the correct school (if, in fact, they accept her).
Remember the following.
A faculty member wrote a nice reply and is going to meet with her.
Another faculty member stated that they did not have enough faculty resources for all three faculty members to meet with the applicant and that a colleague would. Some have interpreted the response as having "tude" and suggested an extreme response.
The goal is for the daughter to have the best education possible.
If she goes to the audition and talks to the available faculty member she may decide that this is a terrific school for her. Or that it is the wrong school.
If she does not go to the audition and meeting, she has no idea about whether she did would like or not like it after learning all the facts or whether she rejected it because one faculty member wrote one slightly not perfect email her mother (and various posters on this Board) did not like.
Don't you really want to base your decision upon whether this is a good school or not, as opposed to email writing skills shown in one email dashed off in a hurry? Obviously you thought that this was a good enough school based on their reputation, brochure, and other information you had so that your daughter spent hours filling out an application and you paid an application fee.
George
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-12-23 18:16
As a parent whose daughter is also currently applying to colleges, I can understand how one might overlook the broader implications of expecting all of the faculty to meet individually on their free time for no compensation with any and every student who applies to their program. As a college prof, I can also understand how some faculty might consider your request unreasonable and, further, how some might endeavor to educate you on the issue. Still, I think that a more tactfully worded response could have accomplished the same purpose. (But there may not have been any intent to be rude. It may simply have been a hastily written reply and the first sentence, however terse, is true.) Also, one of the faculty is willing to go out of his/her way to meet with your daughter. Please be sure to thank him/her.) Those of us who live in our ivory towers sometimes forget that, through no fault of theirs, people in the outside world may be ignorant of our arcane protocols.
While I personally disagree, in my experience many faculty, particularly at larger private or state universities, do not consider student recruitment as part of their job description. So, for future reference, if you are scheduling trips to other schools, you may have happier results if you call (not e-mail) the departmental secretary to find out if any of the faculty you would like to meet have office hours/availability on Friday or Monday and, if so, try to extend your visit to make your appointments then. Your willingness to incur some inconvenience to meet them during normal university hours may increase the likelihood that they will be willing to make a special trip to campus if they can't see you during those hours. If you don't know how to contact the departmental secretary, contact the admissions office and ask them if they can set up a meeting. Recruiting students is in their job description so they will usually be more than happy to act as your advocate. The departmental secretaries and admissions office also usually know which faculty members like to visit with prospective students and which ones don't. Oh, and a good interview prior to the auditions should never hurt the audition outcome.
Best regards and happy holidays,
jnk
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-12-23 20:12
I may be shooting in the dark here, but is professor blahblah, the one who sent the curt message, the Head Clarinet Professor (or head of the woodwind department/music department)?? If so, perphaps he/she arranged for that one professor to meet with your daughter, or knowing his/her schedule forsaw that he/she would be unable to attend the meeting (hence, not ALL 3 would be available), or knew that it is HIGHLY uncommon for a large school to have ALL faculty members for that applied area present to meet only ONE prospective student.
General rule of thumb, don't jump to conclusions over the internet (or any other form of communication where subtle things such as facial expressions affect the meaning). Ever.
Clayton
Post Edited (2005-12-23 20:18)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-23 20:23
----------------------
While I personally disagree, in my experience many faculty, particularly
at larger private or state universities, do not consider student
recruitment as part of their job description.
----------------------
Recruitment absolutely IS a requirement of most all College Clarinet Faculty. I hear about my students getting recruitment letters all the time from Clarinet Professors.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-23 21:03
The content of the request is reasonable. The tone could use some major work.
The best way to deal with this IMO would be to schedule a meeting with the one prof, make sure it got scheduled, and not try to manage your daughter's expectations unless she asked a second time to meet with more than one prof. At that point, the prof that IS meeting with her, expresses regret at the policy and wishes feverntly that they all had time to meet with all of the prospective clarinet students, but as they don't they keep it to one meeting apiece, but that he was very much looking forward to it.
I'm an intuitive introvert with more than my fare share of mean spirited moments, but I have learned the value of managing expectations with the utmost courtesy. Even from a self-centered perspective, its the easiest way to accomplish whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.
If she can't meet with more senior faculty, have her try to meet with the people she'll be interacting with more - other undergrads and one or two of the grad students (hopefully those studying under the other two clarinet faculty), which is who she'll likely be taking more lessons from early on anyway.
I know she's trying to make an impression beyond her audition, but meeting with people closer to her status will give her a much better feel for the program, and questions like what is favored in the auditions and what the decision-making process is like are IMO not inappropiate for folks other than senior faculty and department administrators. (And brief ones along those lines aren't that bad.)
The final lesson is to always personalize correspondence until you've established a relationship. (Really even then except when necessary.) This goes doubly or triply for communicating with high status people. A genuine compliment (like I heard your recording of X, really liked Y about it, and wish I could do the same) or (I spoke to your old student Bob and was excited to hear how much he said he learned under you and how much of an influence you continue to be in his playing, etc.)
A mentoring relationship is a two-way street, and the mentor has to enjoy it to do a good job, make it clear that you will make his or her time worth it and then some.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-12-23 21:12
The message was not "terse." It was sarcastic and rude and would be taken so in any business communication. One can easily get the same message across in as few or fewer words and not be so nasty. E.g.,
"We have noticed that you've requested all three clarinet faculty to meet with you during your upcoming visit. Unfortunately, our busy schedules preclude all of us from meeting with you. As such, we have asked Prof. blah blah to communicate with you and set up a meeting."
Personally, I would have reservations about dealing with someone so arrogant and rude.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-12-24 03:18
Maybe I'm missing the point here - but the person who has to interpret this response, and ultimately make a decision, is your daughter. As a parent of a soon-to-be-college-bound daughter myself, I believe it's important to point them in what we consider to be appropriate directions in order to let them experience and, ultimately, decide what's to be. I can get my daughter to visit schools, but then I know I have to shut up because the rest is up to her, assuming certain parental approval is implied because she's visiting or applying or whatever.
In other words, at this point, I'd stay out of it. It's really hard to do this - but it has to be her comfort level, not yours.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-12-24 14:16
I agree that the phrase "you have decided" sounds a bit like a put down. At best it is carelessly worded.
In general it has been my observation that people tend not to put enough thought and care into email communication. Taking the time to word something thoughtfully can save much time and misunderstanding in the long run.
I have found some of the most frustrating email conversations to be with customer service representatives of businesses.
People who are on the faculty of a college or university should be expected to have good written communication skills.
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Author: Pete
Date: 2005-12-24 14:53
Of course it is your daughters decision how to handle this. However, if she asked my opinion, I would ask her the following questions.
What reasons do you have to believe the schools penchant towards arrogance and rudeness will be any better after you are a student as it is before you are a student?
If there are no reasons to believe it will change, are you willing to base your future around such arrogant and rude people?
Good luck. She has a long life ahead of her. I hope she lives it in a positive and fulfilling manner.
Pete
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-12-24 15:28
I admit that I have been away from the college scene for a long time. The way things were handled when I attended college and grad school was different. A student became interested in a particular music school based on its reputation for training quality performers or educators. It was implicit that its performance faculty was equally reputable. I gather that these days, people who intend to pursue performance gravitate towards schools where certain clarinetists are teaching. Based on their reputation, then, shouldn't that be enough? Whether you "like" them at first meeting should be irrelevant.
I'm sorry if others find this offensive, but I feel that contacting a school and requesting that all three clarinet faculty members be present at your convenience is somewhat inappropriate, and rather arrogant. I suspect that's why you received the response you did. Imagine if they were all expected to meet with each and every potential applicant, the drain on their time would be enormous. In my opinion, their reputation should be sufficient.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Anon
Date: 2005-12-24 20:48
I think it was pretty rude and probably an indicator of how this person will treat a student in person.
BUT: your daughter should go, audition, meet with anyone/everyone who will agree to it, and see what she thinks. She might decide on her own that the teacher who sent the "nice" reply is the one for her, or she might just decide that the whole place isn't for her.
I don't think that a reply like that was an appropriate one, harried faculty or not. Most people know when they type something that could be misconstrued as "rude" and they fix it.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-12-24 21:50
I don't know why this didn't occur to me before but I always thought posting a private e-mail to a public bulletin board without the sender's knowledge, let alone permission, was a fairly serious violation of netiquette. In any case, I dont think it's entirely fair that the sender doesn't have an opportunity to respond to the allegations of rudeness.
jnk
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-12-24 22:32
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> I don't know why this didn't occur to me before but I always
> thought posting a private e-mail to a public bulletin board
> without the sender's knowledge, let alone permission, was a
> fairly serious violation of netiquette.
I think that in the case of very short emails such as this, with all references redacted making it impossible to trace the source, with no personal references to or from the recipient or sender, that editorial "common sense" would let it be posted. The wording of such a short message can stand on its own, and, as we've seen, it can be interpreted ambiguously anyway - I saw no rudeness, only curtness. Others saw something different.
So much for armchair psychoanalysis of email messages ....
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-12-25 01:27
Clarinetmon,
As a retired university professor, I find it unusual to have a perspective student visit campus on the weekend; in addition, all interviews that I have with visitors are arranged through the department secretary. While we always tried to honor requests, expecting to meet with a specific faculty member can be difficult to arrange during the week or otherwise. Can she go during the week to this school? Most admissions programs for new students are not geared for weekends (is her audition on a weekend???).
While I have always met on Saturday with students that find it impossible make any other arrangements, would not your daughter get a better sense of the institution on a regualr class day. The chance to see a large group rehearsal, maybe sit in on part of a class (pretty unusual except at a very small school), or have lunch at the student center are all important parts of a visitiation. However, if the school in question is anything like places I have taught, things can be pretty dead on weekends.
And as Jack Kissinger said so well, we do have these "arcane protocols." Right or wrong, senior faculty members do not usually have much contact with perspective or entering students often until later in their academic programs. Have your daughter respond politely to both emails. This is not a battle worth getting into.
HRL
PS In fairness, it would seem that you should have shared the text of your daughter's email to the professors. Also, if she just did a Dear Professor message and all the recipienets knew that the others got the same email (this seems to probably have been the case) she committed IMHO a breach of etiquette. Senior faculty members merit personalized communication (another protocol item).
Post Edited (2005-12-26 11:47)
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