 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-29 01:25
Are there any prominent (either widely used or maybe just some personal "awesome mouthpiece" stories) mouthpieces that AREN'T based on a chedeville or kaspar style? Seems to me every mouthpiece maker states "based on chedeville" and there are makers now developing what they consider to be the BEST chedeville copies or kaspar copies.
I'm not TOO sure what measurements make a mouthpiece a chedeville or kaspar copy (baffle, chamber, facing, rails, whatever), but are there any mouthpieces out there are NOT these copies? More of "one of a kind" type mouthpieces?
Just curious. (Although any information here will probably lead to me trying them out in the future. If not seriously, at least just for the fun of trying something new)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-29 01:31
i'd like to see what happens when that mystery "rubber compound" is applied to the Rico Graftonite!
no seriously, i can't really help you here. i don't think Selmer or Vandoren or Pomarico mouthpieces are "based" on Kaspars or Chedevilles and the first two of these would probably acount for at least half of the worlds moutphieces (at a guess)
donald
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-09-29 07:42
None of my best mouthpieces are Kaspar or Chedville based. My best Bb mouthpiece is Eaton. My backups are a Vandoren and a Gigliotti. I play Fobes on bass, and the best bass mouthpiece I've played was a Selmer (which wasn't for sale unfortunately).
As apposed to most people, I don't think the Kaspar and Chedville based mouthpieces, or the "hand finished" ones (like Fobes, Grabner, etc.) are necessarily better than mouthpieces made by large companies like Vandoren and Selmer. It is a fact some of the best players play stock Vandorens and Selmers.
By the way, I've tried Pomarico, Vandoren, Selmer, Fobes, Grabner, Gigliotti, Garret, Pyne, Bay, and a few more I forgot.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-29 08:53
oh yeah, of course
Pyne mouthpieces aren't based on Kaspar or Chediville, and for a while they were "all the rage", certainly many very fine players use them
donald
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-09-29 13:56
Many vandoren are also ched based.
I believe most of the M series mouthpieces are...
And yes it is hard to justify the cost of a man made mouthpiece these days. I am thinking about replacing my current mpc and I recently went through around 10-15 different Vandoren mouthpieces (M30, M13 Lyre, M15, 5RV). The level of consistency and quality was really impressive.
I can buy 4 VD for the price of one man made and never worry about chipping my mouthpiece I woudl always have a backup very similar...
If only they were making reeds the smae way...
-S
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Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-09-29 21:52
Sylvain: I have heard you and know you are quite a good player, so I am interested in your impressions of the tonal differences and intonation accuracy among the Vandoren types you tried.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-09-29 22:33
Hello,
Most American mouthpieces are copies of Chedeville. Mr. Chedeville (I actually don't know his name, but assume he named the mouthpieces after himself) had the "market cornered" on mouthpieces until the middle of the 20th century. When he decided to quit, he would not sell his equipment, nor trade secrets, so other companies like Babbitt started copying Chedeville mouthpieces and producing them. They would cut a famous clarinetist's Chedeville and copy the interior as closely as they could with the technology they had. Then, they would make "tweaks" to improve the mouthpiece. Even with interior differences, the volume inside one mouthpiece to another must be very similar so as to maintain the pitch of the mouthpiece. Ratios between chamber, bore, throat and baffle can be changed for different effect, but when you measure the overall volume, all mouthpieces will be very close, if not exactly the same.
When I think of Chedeville vs. Kaspar, I think about differences in facings--not so much about interiors. The typical Chedeville facing is medium long with a medium close tip opening. For those of you that like to measure, this would be in the 34/22/12/6 range, with a 102-106 tip opening. The Kaspar facing will be longer (and I don't deal with these too much, so forgive me if my memory of the numbers is faulty), at about 36-38/24/12/4, with a rather close facing--99-101.
Other facings could be considered as variations of the Chedeville/Kaspar, or they could be considered different altogether. The Pyne mouthpieces I have measured are ironically pretty much Chedeville numbers on one rail and Kaspar numbers on the other rail. The mouthpiece I play has classic 34/22/12/6 numbers, with a 117 tip opening--rather open. Ironically, I find that If I make a mouthpiece with a tip opening from 102-106, the short numbers usually turn out in the 10/4 range instead of 12/6. When the tip opening reaches 108+ is when I can get solid 12/6 numbers.
More important than the facing differences, in my opinion, is the rubber used in the older mouthpieces. Most of the brands mentioned above--Zinner, VanDoren (I have to disagree with the previous poster that said the VanDoren mouthpieces were consistent, as they are the most inconsistent of the brands in my experience), Selmer--use a rubber that contains plastic (as I've mentioned before) as a hardening agent. This is why they look so shiny. Chadash/Hill uses a reported exact chemical copy of the Chedeville rubber, which is interesting. Those blanks are very expensive, so I have not done any experimenting with them. The Babbitt rubber is the closest to the old rubber that I have seen, however. To be sure, it is not the same, but similar. This rubber, with sulphur as a hardening agent, is softer than the plastic versions. From my deduction, this softer rubber is what creates the best clarinet sound. Dealing with many mouthpieces, as I do, the softer the batch of rubber, the better the mouthpiece, without exception. My personal mouthpiece is actually the softest rubber one I have run across.
The original poster said that discussions will make him or her try some new mouthpieces. That is the answer, I think. Try everything you can get your hands on until you find the right mouthpiece for you. A mouthpiece should feel good, tune well, and make a good sound. A mouthpiece will not improve the tuning of your instrument, however. You must find other remedies for tuning differences on your instrument, but the mouthpiece should have good pitch on "short" notes, like open g, a, f, and e (all in the middle of the staff).
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-30 03:46
kia ora
as mentioned in another post Brad Behn has just started making a mouthpiece that is pretty much as close a copy as possible of his favourite Cheddy. The rubber compound has been carefully copied with the help of modern science. i expect that these will be fabulous mouthpieces, and that he won't be selling unfinished blanks!
donald
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-09-30 14:58
Alexi,
I'd suggest that you try several Ralph Morgan clarinet mouthpieces. I've found them to be exceptionally fine pieces and for the life of me I don't understand why they tend to be overlooked in these kinds of discussions on the Forum. The RM10 (1.10 mm) or RM15 (1.15 mm) are good facings to start with.
Good luck, Roger
Post Edited (2005-09-30 14:59)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-09-30 15:35
jim S:
First of all thank you! Where did you hear me?
Here are my thoughts on the different VD mouthpieces I tried. I am giving a little advertising for Albert Alphin, whom I recently met and has the largest stock of VD mouthpieces in the boston area. He is also a fun guy to talk to and a sponsor of this site. (I have no commercial interest in saying any of this).
Here is my setup:
Bb RC prestige greenline, regular 66mm barrel
A RC, chadash barrel
Olegature
M15(13) mouthpiece.
My reed of choice: V12 #4
Disclaimer: I have a tendency to play sharp.
Here are my impression from open to close:
B45s: Last tried 5 years ago, very inconsistent and way too sharp for me.
B40s: Tried a couple recently, they sound great, but I'd have to play softer reeds on them and I don't want to go through the reed search process. They play a little sharp for me. The 13 series is better in tune for my horns.
5RV Lyre: Nice mouthpiece, but missing something in color for me. Also a little open.
M30(13): Tried 3, all in tune, nice sound more color than the 5RVLyres, although the combination long facing/open tip felt a little uncomfortable.
M13Lyre: Tried 5-6, Love the sound, very full, great projection. My V12 #4 feel a little stiff for it, will most likely become my next primary mouthpiece. Great for symphony. All tried were in tune.
M15(13): My current mouthpiece. I simply love the sound, it has a very sweet color and I feel very comfortable in playing legato passage and feel I can change timbre nicely. It is ot as powerful as the M13Lyre, but a little sweeter. Unfortunately, after an hour or so of playing, the sound deadens and articulation becomes very uncomfortable. i suspect the long facing to be the primary culprit.
So all in all, I was very impressed by the consistency of the mouthpieces I tried. I did a similar trial about 5 years ago and was unimpressed by the variability of the VD mouthpieces. I do not know if I was simply lucky this time or if VD did something to quality inspection in their production line, but it felt great to be able to take 5 different M13s and have them all feel the same...
best,
-Sylvain
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-09-30 15:55
Ben,
Thanks for the great post. I should try your mouthpieces some time!
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-01 04:10
Quote:
The original poster said that discussions will make him or her try some new mouthpieces. That is the answer, I think. Try everything you can get your hands on until you find the right mouthpiece for you. I was afraid, yet oddly enough hoping for an answer like that . . . . Oh well. The fun continues. I've run across some GREAT mouthpieces, but will keep checking others until I find one that gives me that same "Alexi" sound (which I seem to make on them all), with the least effort needed to produce it.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-10-01 11:33
Those interested in Kaspar and Chedeville designs may be interested in a post Clark Fobes made to the klarinet list a couple of years back detailing his experiences with the various styles.
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/12/000304.txt
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-10-01 17:05
Sylvain: It was an mpc or WAV posting to this site a while back, I think.
Jim
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-01 17:56
clarnibass,
I have a few mouthpieces that I AM happy with, but none of them are that "perfect" mouthpiece. They play well, they sound good, but they all have slight differences. One would be extremely easy to articulate on, but hard to get a good control on the dynamics. One would have excellent dynamic control, but is tiring to my embouchure very quickly. One of them I like the way it sounds throughout most of the clarinet, but the lower chalemaeu notes come out edgy and sound "unrefined" to me.
So it's not that any of the ones I have I can't work with. They can all be made to work, but they all have their little idiosyncrasies that I have to be careful with while playing. Maybe I'm just TOO picky and will find a fault in EVERY one I play, or maybe I'm just supposed to adapt and become adjusted to the mouthpiece and end up being comfortable rather than trying to find a mouthpiece that is "just right" (sort of the 'just pick one and throw the rest away' type method)
In any event, as I play for a hobby, I really DO enjoy trying out new mouthpieces and equipment on my own anyway. And then what happens is I'll try a mouthpieces that sounds better than ANY mouthpiece I'll have had so far, but is a pain in the ass to control it. So when I find a mouthpiece that sounds good and is easily controlled, I'll think back and say, "But it doesn't sound as good as that other one I had for a while . . . " so it urges me to find a mouthpiece that is a combination of my best playing pieces.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-01 19:08
"Maybe I'm just TOO picky and will find a fault in EVERY one I play"
Probably.
"maybe I'm just supposed to adapt and become adjusted to the mouthpiece and end up being comfortable rather than trying to find a mouthpiece that is just right"
That is a good idea, but it is possible that your mouthpieces are problematic. Just out of interest, did you play the mouthpieces you have before you bought them or did you buy them online?
"I really DO enjoy trying out new mouthpieces and equipment on my own anyway."
I do too. I'm addicted to that too. I might even buy a mouthpiece knowing it is not as good as the one I use, because there is something unique about it (I save money by not eating).
Anyway, good luck finding the perfect mouthpiece. If you can find a way to try Eaton mouthpieces, it is my best one, maybe you'll like it.
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