 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-07-31 12:28
I'm getting a little old for the marching band scene but have a need (New Orlean's style funeral) for a lyre. I must admit that I am completly naive about what is on the market. I see metal, plastic, combos. I get the setup - ring with retaining screw, lyre which screws in with a retaining knurled nut for positioning. Are there upscale, better designs, better quality lyres? I am a liar if I say that I know anything about lyres.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-07-31 17:41
Omar,
I do not have any knoweldge of anything but what you describe. Lyres aren't used that often in the marching bands in this area, aside from a stand tune or two. The students are required to memorize their field performances.
There is a wrist lyre available. These have been marketed for flute players, but I guess one could use one on the right hand if he/she wanted.
(Appears to me that the good Dr. may be thinking of a new design!?)
jbutler
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-07-31 17:45
Using the wrist lyre on your right hand would make you crane your neck uncomfortably to the right. They were uncomfortable enough when I played flute and it was right in front of me. The clip-on-the-mid-joint ones should do you fine.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-07-31 18:55
I've always used just one kind. It attaches to the middle joint of the clarinet. I've never seen more than one model for it, probably because the basic one will get the job done with no problem.
Well, as long as you don't step on it.
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Author: deblcooper
Date: 2005-07-31 19:19
Last year I played in an adult community marching band.....
The lyre you have that attaches in the middle of the clarinet is fine. You can also attach it between the lower joint and bell (if long-sighted).
Your local music store may also carry a music holder for the lyre. This is a music note binder that has a hard plastic backplate which you clip onto the lyre. The plastic sheets protect the music note sheets.... in case of rain.
Hope this helps,
deb
www.godlyd.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-31 19:21
The big concern with using a lyre is not to scratch your clarinet. Often they can slip or move and you end up with a line right below your lower joint ring.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-07-31 20:39
Good point, D B, your first post and J B's "aside", reminded me of that quite humorous few minutes in "Music Man" with the [then] bad boy. Some lyres have a large enough ring to attach at the bell joint. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-07-31 22:59
some instruments have a lyre screw thread mounted on the middle joint tenon ring - you just screw the top of the lyre in and dont have to fit the extra lyre ring on the outside of the tenon ring - the old metal clarinets were built this way, and i've seen some plastic vitos with this feature. i just sold one like that a day or 2 ago actually, but don't have a picture.
this i think is a better design - you're not going to tear up the bridge mechanism, and it cant slip and scratch the joint as david said.
i haven't seen anything much better lyre or flip folder wise - they all seem pretty much the same design. watch out for the real cheap , $2 or $3 lyres - they're made of very thin metal, which bends very easily.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-07-31 23:39
Jon Lovitz playing Tommy Flanagan.
"Yeah ... that's the ticket" ...GBK
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-08-01 01:01
omar....... lyre ?....just memorize the music ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
dennis
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-01 02:09
Thank you for all the help. This is a new consortium of for hire funeral players with options including - The New Orleans Jazz Motif, Soulful Gospel, Mornful Gospel, Classic Gospel, Yiddish Standards, Bagpipe, and Bugle. The funeral directors offer the service - we provide the music. Good short gig but a lot of music to memorize plus there is the option of requests and short notice. No, I do not play the pipes or bugle, I have enough trouble with the clarinet! We are willing to franchise however.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2005-08-01 03:15)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-01 03:18
Thanks David - I am swimming in free lyres from BB folks who must have made amazing ebay purchases and gotten them as a bonus, after bonus, after bonus. Different examples might make an interesting shadow box wall decoration!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2005-08-01 07:09
"Tommy Djilas"
Haha Markael, i got that too :D sitting in the pit for music man left me with so many random quotes, egads!
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-08-01 10:41
YOU WATCH YOUR PHRAS'OLOGY!
I had to Google Tommy to get the spelling of his name right. He's one of those Nithalanians South o' town, ya know.
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2005-08-01 11:28
Jeely Clyde...i didnt know there were other people knowing so much randomness from MM! I knew his name was spelt something like that, it was a written cue on my part, maybe for shipoopi?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-01 13:35
Yup - played M M twice, seen the movie Many times, as I recall it was for a left-handed?? piccolo player, T D [!!] found wire in someone's ?garage?, the first model cut off blood circulation, and like our many attempts at improving our "pinch" Bb, if fell into oblivion ! Perhaps there is a moral [lesson] in all of this ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-08-01 15:27
"Not on your tintype! I couldn't be clearer if I was a buttonhook in the well water!"
The Music Man (note required article at the beginning of the title; Meredith Wilson's estate would prefer that you called it such) is a great introduction to the world of Broadway shows. Lots of musical harmony for all parts, a variety of musical styles, and some great bass clarinet lines in the slow female ballads.
Just watch out that you don't get stuck playing the Marian The Librarian bass line when the bassoon player can't hack the thumb key stuff. I had this thrust upon me once in a municipal operetta production in (I think) Kirkwood MO, and had the misfortune to get caught in an endless vamp due to problems on stage with lining up the dance portion (one performer was having costume problems, apparently).
However, it didn't run as long as the infamous bass clarinet vamp during the dance contest in Hello Dolly! that I suffered through one time (costume trouble again; I played the same, one bar "brarrump, rump" vamp about thirty times while improvised hilarity ensued on stage). But, it was right up there in endurance problems.
It also has the "choice stuff" distributed through all of the wind books, not just in Books I and II. I recalled my amazement when (during the Eccentric Couple Dance after Shipoopee), I flipped the page and saw the magic word "LEAD" above a clarinet part that I was sight reading at the time. A great chance to scream for those who usually are stuck playing a little clarinet, bass clarinet and bari sax. Whoever orchestrated that show spread things out pretty well.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-08-01 16:22
All of us together now.........
Greeeeecian Urnnnnnsssssss.
Omar, while you are making a new lyre, howzabout a new design for a neck strap that doesnt yank on the thumb support.
The latter object is not a good pivot point ergometrically for attachment, and those slotted leather attachments do not fit all thumb rests. I am thinking maybe a reverse lyre ring with hook attachment. The lyre ring has to adjust for sizes of the outer bore and socket ring...think Selmer Recital vs Buffet Elite and you get the picture.
Oh yes, we have trouble right here in River city...
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-01 17:14
To pursue the "Music Man" by the great Meredith Wilson [will this do OK, T S ?] , as in its 2nd act, we always need their [simple-minded] innovation so here goes. I'll [#1] look in my lyre collection for a bell-sized ring [as above] and suggest others do likewise, and [#2] suggest having an U J neck-strap ring installed so as to use a double-hook strap, as is common for bass and alto etc cls, which allows "balance-accommodation". I use a 2 hook'er on an old alto cl by hooking to a small paper clip which is hooked onto the lower post of the left thumb pivot mech., it doesnt interfere with the thumb ring, and works well. Of doubtful patentability !! The adaptation of a mid-joint ring for a strap hook should be simple and afford good balance. Good idea again, not much novelty reqd. . Would-be inventors, AWAKE. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-08-01 18:16
Omar
surely you have a propeller beanie.
Hook a stick onto it and hang the music from there.
To turn the page, spin the propeller.
OR....put a dowel peg in the hole of the power barrel....attach music. Bingo.
I read this in Uncle Billie's WhizBang
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-08-01 19:37
I think we have HARPED on this subject enough.
No good deed ever goes unPUNished
e z stasis
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2005-08-03 00:10
the best bit of TMM in my opinion is the bass sax (bari for me) solo in shipoopi dance That was the highlight of everything Esp coz i didnt have to vamp the marian bassline. And yes, im aware this post has nothing about lyres.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2005-08-04 14:04
Thanks to all for sending me lyres - I am surfit with lyres for a lifetime. Paul -what vintage Vito had the integral lyre holder? Actually I have an idea for an integral lyre holder - but requires drilling a hole. I have researched the patents back to 1976 and found nothing so it might be fair game but "prior art" no doubt being popular on metal clarinets for a long time.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-08-04 14:51
The Doctor wrote:
> Thanks to all for sending me lyres - I am surfit with lyres for
> a lifetime. Paul -what vintage Vito had the integral lyre
> holder? Actually I have an idea for an integral lyre holder -
> but requires drilling a hole. I have researched the patents
> back to 1976 and found nothing so it might be fair game but
> "prior art" no doubt being popular on metal clarinets for a
> long time.
The Vito Resotone I learned on came with a lyre and mounting socket on the metal ring of the middle tenon. I got that in 1971. It just sat in my case until I got into high school, and started marching band. Still have both the clarinet and the lyre!
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-08-04 14:56
The Doctor wrote:
> Any possibility of a picture?
My digital camera is pretty lousy, but I'll see what I can do. If nothing else works, I'll make up a freehand drawing of it.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-04 15:16
As Archer1960 says, yes I've seen these "integrals" on the 70's Vitos [and Kenoshas and "no-names". As I recall, its merely a silver-soldered-on "female-threaded" fitting on a regular L J ring. Omar, Leblanc [Leon, Paccucci et al] has many patents, some of which are earlier than 1976 and thereby searchable only by number, not terms. What I do, is to look in the References Cited, and in the first few paragraphs of the '76+ for familiar names and look them up by #, using the "Images" for viewing. If you wish to print these oldies, [quite a chore], you need a "reader", I use Alterna Tiff [free] as recommended to me, works ! Need more help ? Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2005-08-04 16:27
Don - thanks. Since I am the frugal-cheap fellow that I am I have done a lot of the leg work researching prior patents for some of my own stuff. As you mentioned there are a lot of Vito related patents early on. I am not a patent attorney but have been around the block a few times with patent law cases - very interesting! Many patents do not cite much prior art that is relevent, even from my meger historical perspective. My take on the whole issue is that there are many "weak" patents which are taken just to give legal "standing" and then it is a battle about how much each side is willing to spend and how much time they are willing to waste to defend or impune the patent. The object of these suits is often more about other money issues or trashing a competitor rather than the matter at hand.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-04 16:40
"The Vito Resotone I learned on came with a lyre and mounting socket on the metal ring of the middle tenon."
Is it possible that what you have is simply the mounting ring for a lyre as a surrogate for a regular ring? One old clarinet I bought on ebay came without such a regular ring and I simply put a lyre ring there. It works.
Bob Draznik
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2005-08-04 17:03
(Disclaimer - I am a maker of the Forte' clarinet) We have a specific problem with our clarinet in that the ring in question is customized with the SOFAS (tm) alignment system and the hidden bridge key mechanism. Silver soldering a female mounting post on the top would work but is in my mind aestheically not pretty. For the history buffs - of interest and actual great importance is the fact that the reason that most lyres look alike is that they have been made almost exclusively by the APM (American Plating and Machine) company in Chicago since 1902 and little changed. Even the Asian rim rip-off companies have copied the design and even kept the #8-32 thread size intact which makes the process of making a holder easier. The bell ring system is an option and was first popularized by the Grambling State University Tiger band for marching band use. All of this of course has nothing to do with my orignal need for a lyre but as usual my tangents soon overwhelm the primary purpose!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-08-04 18:10
The Doc said:
"Many patents do not cite much prior art that is relevent, even from my meger historical perspective. My take on the whole issue is that there are many "weak" patents which are taken just to give legal "standing" and then it is a battle about how much each side is willing to spend and how much time they are willing to waste to defend or impune the patent. The object of these suits is often more about other money issues or trashing a competitor rather than the matter at hand."
A lot of patents initially get through because the only place people look for prior art is in patents, without checking the rest of the world for already-existing equivalents. This is quite common in software. Much of the time, people stuff just build something, and since they think it's obvious they don't bother patenting it, and then later somebody else comes along and tries to patent the same thing, never knowing that the first guy did it 5 years ago. But since the first one didn't patent it, the 2nd person't prior art search doesn't turn up anything, and the USPTO _only_ looks at patents for prior art, so the patent goes through.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-04 23:57
I do not know about your patent attorney but mine insists - or at least I insist - that a subject matter expert review and give an opinion on prior art both in the patent realm but also in the real world - this can be the expensive part so I do a lot of the leg work myself. Once an item is advertised for sale, becomes public knowledge, or is publicly used for some period of time, your patent rights are compromised if you claim it as your invention. This is no guarantee but it does obviate cursory patent challenges that you ultimately have to defend and hope that the other party does not have deep pockets or malicious intent. For some things a "trade secret" is more advantageous if the item has enough concealed elements and is not easily analyzed.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2005-08-05 00:04)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-05 00:39
Thanks for the effort of getting the pictures - very nice. The lyre part is a classic APM design. No mention of a patent on the holder soldered to the ring in searches so far. Perhaps a metal clarinet expert could date the first appearance of the integral lyre holder on metal clarinets?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-08-05 01:09
L. Omar Henderson wrote:
> Thanks for the effort of getting the pictures - very nice. The
> lyre part is a classic APM design.
It actually hass "Leblanc" engraved on the front of it.
> No mention of a patent on
> the holder soldered to the ring in searches so far. Perhaps a
> metal clarinet expert could date the first appearance of the
> integral lyre holder on metal clarinets?
Even if there was a patent, wouldn't it have expired by now, since my horn dates from 1971, leaving you free to make ones of your own to this basic design? And if you were looking to patent a new design, you'd probably have some work ahead of you to meet the "Non obvious" criteria in the face of this prior art. For example, ISTM that making the entire ring or just the mounting socket removable when desired would be a pretty obvious variation.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-05 14:52
Oh, Doc, you don't have to apologize for expanding replies. Now, maybe you could expand on the concept that caused the need for lyres. P.S. I see you tried the same thing I did re highlighting links....and it didn't work either!
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-05 15:17
The APM website is a fascinating read and company. Among other things I now know that I have an old silver plated saxophone lyre.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-05 15:24
When patents are discussed, I just cant remain silent. As an [educational] point of interest thereof, read the thread on "Claripatch" where a quick pat search turned up [very probably] its recent US patent. Yes, patents generally expire [becomming public domain] in about 20 years. We've all heard of drugs going "off-patent", becomming available as "generics". I have 2 metal cls made by Bettoney which have the lyre 'hole' on a "saddle" mounted on the cl at ?mid-point. Bet's patent US 1,705,634 however doesn't show it. Help, please, Jim Lande ! There possibly could be "incidental" disclosure in other pat drawings having "full-horn" pics, or having been considered not worth patenting costs. Ain't this fun ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-05 15:25
BobD wrote:
> P.S. I see you tried the same thing I did re
> highlighting links....and it didn't work either!
Doc got them backwards! <http://...> is the format. I'll fix Doc's posting.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-08-05 18:43
sorry i didn't keep a pic
the one i had last week was a vito resotone serial B318XX if that helps.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-06 03:01
Thanks Mark for showing me the error of my ways - I knew there were carats but had a 50/50 chance and chose the wrong way!
Not to continue this lyre post past its useful? lifetime but to answer Bob -
I believe that musicians have to create opportunities for gigs as well as seek them out and accept them. Opportunities for music can be found at all stages and passages of life - a birth celebration party, circumcision?, first communion, birthday, bar-bat mitzvahs, sweet 16, graduation, summer lawn parties, engagement, wedding, anniversary, divorce?, 40,50,60,70,80,90,100 birthday, and even funerals and wakes! Some are currently more popular musical events than others but if you offer the service then someone will be a client. I have found that the Jones's (keeping up with a trend setter, popular, or rich person for the international crowd) syndrome for any event spawns additional work. Cases in point - the tragic events of 9/11 and the law enforcement and firefighter’s funerals with pipers playing has created a demand for pipers at funerals, the whimsical New Orleans funeral parade, etc.. Funeral directors (whatever you may think of the profession and the ethics of death) have increasingly, at least in Atlanta, had demands - or opportunities - to provide a theme musical setting for funerals. Some enterprising musicians have provided themed music settings for hire - the "if you build it they will come" senerio (from a film titled Field of Dreams).
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2005-08-06 03:05)
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