 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarisax
Date: 2005-04-16 05:45
i always thought a tremelo was determined by the number of beams. if two half notes were beamed together with two beams it would mean to play even 16th notes for two beats...if theres three beams then it would mean 32nd notes. a lot of times in band i am told to just trill since the odds of actually playing the exact amount of notes is pretty slim for the rest of my high school clarinet section. so technically i think there is a difference. a big enough difference to discourage most people from just trilling...nope, not at all. i would only be cautious of trilling if it is part of the melody and it has to be exact every time...or if it was just a short hand way of writing out the melody. ive seen this in some etudes but i can't specifically remember which ones. if its just a little ornamentation to the overall sound of a chord in band or something then its most likely meant to be trilled.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-04-16 08:32
Sometimes tremolo is just like a trill with a big interval between the notes.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-16 14:37
.....or, a tremolo is a vibrato over two notes a step or more apart....that is acceptable to most professionals.
Bob Draznik
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-04-16 16:31
There's undoubtedly a wide range of thought on the core definitions, correct interpretation and musical application of tremolos and trills.
(As I was taught), tremolos are "metered pulses" in compositional shorthand, and as written, (dots, stems and beams) are beats that make up a measure. A prime function of a tremolo is forming multiple intervals. As notated, they can range in size from a half step to as wide as an octave or higher (albeit impractical and puts we instrumentalists in convulsions contorting alternate fingerings.)
Thesis: if it's true a tremolo contains a rhythmic function then it must also be true when executed without meter, pattern or freestyle, its fundamental characteristics are altered. By necessity, it ceases to be a tremolo and becomes an "ornamentation." Why?
Trills are generally defined as an "ornamentation". They may be played with a discretionary number of repetitions but in half or whole steps (up or down as notated) and staying within the key signature. Their tempo is NOT strictly metered and may vary in speed, and according to context. However, big however, they too can be "metered notes" depending on the situation and need. Clear as mud. Bottom line, trills and tremolos have distinct musical functions, not the same or interchangeable.
The rule of thumb I use: consider tremolos as notes, count and play them "evenly" like I would groupings of triplets, 8ths or 16ths. Trills, I interpret open-metered, played at the appropriate speed and in the character of "little pieces of popcorn". v/r Ken
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-04-16 23:22
right- more information on the piece might help you help me more, since I have come across pieces where it is meant to be "trilled" and pieces where it is played like notes...
The piece is "October", by Eric Whitacre, the part, for those of you who know it, is at letter D.... two whole notes, a G to a Bb with two lines over them (is that 16ths??). The tempo is fairly slow (it's cantabile and legato)
I hope that bit of info helps
p.s. am I spelling the word wrong? I tried looking it up and failed to find it in two dictionaries and sounded it out!
-Lindsie
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-16 23:47
music_is_life wrote:
> p.s. am I spelling the word wrong? I tried looking it up and
> failed to find it in two dictionaries and sounded it out!
Since you asked, the correct spelling is tremolo ...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-17 00:11
BTW - Although never a substitute for a good music dictionary text (ex: Harvard Dictionary of Music, etc...), here is an on-line music dictionary site which gives a spoken pronunciation along with the definitions.
There are many on-line music dictionary sites. This is an additional one to bookmark:
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/
...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-04-17 00:18
wow! thanks, GBK!
but, the definition didn't quite answer my question...Quote:
The art of performing or singing the same note over and over very quickly... Tremolo may be measured or unmeasured and has the effect of adding motion to the sound.
so am I trilling or measuring the G-Bb into 16th notes?? who here has played October who could tell me?
thanks again!
-Lindsie
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-04-17 01:02
GBK (or others) can correct me if I'm wrong (and request he most certainly does) but I believe tremolos with beams over them indicate meter and value. Tremolos with lines "in between" them do not and to be played freestyle and as fast as possible (but always musical.)
Each beam over a tremolo can indicate half the value of the written note, i.e., one beam over a whole note is a half, two beams a 1/4, etc. Still, and more convoluted, the note value of a tremolo can be determined by the number of beats in a measure, by conductor edict, and special instructions by the composer. If it was me, I'd interpret those tremolos as 1/4s. Hey, tremolos and trills simply share a symbiotic relationship!
It's no biggie; if no one provides a satisfactory answer (or a respected recording) phone Eric Whitacre yourself and ask. I've only recorded his 1st movement of "Ghost Train" but have heard he's a very approachable guy. v/r Ken
Post Edited (2005-04-17 01:07)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-04-17 01:31
AFAIK, tremolos over the note itself just means to tremolo on that note, like strings are easily able to, rather than between two notes. In some contexts, they are intended as metered, some not. For slashes on individual notes, I believe that two or less is usually metered, three is tremolo.
Contemporary composers will often clear up the ambiguity with a written note, such as "metered tremolo," and many composers will just write out notes they want metered.
In any case, intention tends to differ per composer, and interpretation per ensemble.
If there are no special directions, a safe bet is to play them very quickly while keeping loosely to a meter (e.g. 8 to a beat). I tend to unconsciously tremolo and trill that way anyways.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2005-04-17 01:51
Given your description of the piece, I agree with Alex. Play metrical sixteenth notes. If it was to be a fast tremolo in a slow piece, my experience says there would be more beams.
Ken's post brings up an inconsistency in musical terminology. Tremolo shown by beams across the stems of individual notes (or above a non-stemmed note)means repetition of that note at a speed indicated by the number of beams. This is often seen in string writing. Tremolo shown by beams in-between two notes means repetition (either trilled or metred) of both notes in succession.
I have seen two-note tremolos with 3 beams, indicating to me that it is effectively a trill. I have also seen two-note tremolos with only one beam, meaning to me that those notes should be alternated at eighth-note speed. This seems to me to be mainly a space-saving method.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-17 01:54
There are (were) three differents types of tremolos:
A string tremolo is the rapid reiteration of the same note, produced by up and down bow movements.
A "fingered tremolo" is the rapid alternation between two notes, with an interval of a minor third or more.
There was also a vocal tremolo, (again, a reiteration of notes of the same pitch) used first in the 13th century. In the 17th and 18th century this became known as a trillo. By the end of 18th century, this practice fell out of favor...GBK
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-04-17 02:36
I wasn't suggesting to play metric 16ths. The two-slashes rule, I was only applying to two slashes over a single note. Between multiple notes, I play very fast, loosely metrically, as I said.
I don't recall how our other ensemble played October, but I imagine that a fast tremolo would be more appropriate. In a slow piece where sixteenths are desired, I'd expect to see the sixteenths written out, rather than a metered tremolo that's not specifically marked as "metered." 8 notes to a slow beat is usually a safe bet.
Finale defaults to two beams for tremolos, and lately I increasingly play pieces according to how I think a person intended to enter it into the notation software.
Frankly, in my experience there's no right answer across the board, and notation isn't consistent. A composer that uses three beams for tremolo can clear up the confusion considerably.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-17 18:02
"October"....yes, been rehearsing it for some weeks now for May 1 concert.
We've been "tremoloing it" "a bit slower" than you would do a trill and the director seems to have no problem with that. It's a quiet passage also which seems to "want" a relatively slow trem........like trembling leaves in the month of October!!
Bob Draznik
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Author: Cindy
Date: 2005-04-23 01:44
I did pretty much the exact same thing as BobD. We did more like a trill, unmetered, but slow enough so it was calmer if a tremolo could be described that way, lol! My director said it was a good way to do it when i asked him if we were playing it correctly. Hope that helps
So many instruments to play........so little time to play them!
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-04-23 16:15
We are playing a horrid arangement of C. Saint-Saens arrangement by Chas. J. Roberts of Danse Bacchanle for Sampson and Delilah.
The clarinet parts have temelos. They are written as metered 1/16th notes alternating with occasional measures showing two HALF notes (in 2/4 time) beamed with two bars --1/16th notes. Since mose of the woodwinds have the same sort of "lazy" notation, we've decided to play them as 1/16ths.
Its one of those ugly, ugly passages that one must practice over and over to get the chord changes correct.
Bob Phillips
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Author: ffrr
Date: 2005-04-23 23:29
"There are (were) three differents types of tremolos:
A string tremolo is the rapid reiteration of the same note, produced by up and down bow movements.
A "fingered tremolo" is the rapid alternation between two notes, with an interval of a minor third or more.
There was also a vocal tremolo, (again, a reiteration of notes of the same pitch) used first in the 13th century. In the 17th and 18th century this became known as a trillo. By the end of 18th century, this practice fell out of favor...GBK
"
This is closer to my understanding. The terms tremolo and vibrato, were defined to me in physical terms as,
tremolo - periodic chage in volume (loudness)
vibrato - periodic change in pitch
Therefore string tremolo is the first one, and fingered is the second.
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