 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Evan
Date: 1999-02-20 04:32
I recently bought a new clarinet but while at the store I played a bunch of horns. The selmers played OK, the Leblancs were amazing and the buffets were the biggest POS's O have ever played on. I played a seris 10 selmer it was nice and sounded good but the keys felt big under my fingers, so. I ended up buying a Leblanc LL, it is ever so sweet, and it just seems to sing, I like it a lot. I also played a Concert, an Opus, and a Pete Fountain 1610, these were all good to but a little out of my price range. Then the buffets, I played two of each of an E-11, an R-13, and an R-13 vintage. Not one buffet played or sounded good. I know a lot of pro's play on them but I just don;t see it. They did not feel right(they felt cheap more than anything else), the seemed to have a tone that was lacking all forms of personality and color, also the tune on them as well as the intonation just was not right.(I have been playing on the quite excellent Leblanc L300 for my entire career, it has very few and very slight intonation and tuning problems, so it was the POS horns not me)
Ultimetely what I am asking for is two things, That current buffet owners tell me what they think about their horns to help me with what i am missing, but only if they have played on a real Leblanc or a nice selmer.
And also I am asking for is other clarinet players who have found buffet's to be crap. Just to know I am not alone.
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Author: Meredith
Date: 1999-02-20 05:15
I LOVE MY BUFFET!!! She is a four month old Buffet R-13 with silver plated keys and she plays as beautifully as she looks. I played an intermediate level selmer (now lovingly referred to as "my piece of crap") before I got my baby in november for my birthday. I have never played on a Leblanc or a pro grade selmer, nor do I want to.
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Author: Paul Wusow
Date: 1999-02-20 05:25
It's rather unethical to judge an entire brand of clarinets by auditioning only a few. (Obviously those instruments you played were not top notch, or your perceptions are quite different from the majority of clarinetists.) You must remember that for years Buffet has been the premier maker of clarinets in the entire world. It is only in the past few years that other makers have risen to the quality of Buffet. Still, the majority of players play Buffet. That must account for something. Good luck with your new purchase, and get out more often-- and try not to offend others!
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Author: Merry
Date: 1999-02-20 05:29
I love the sound of my Buffet and the intonation is spot on too. I don't know how anyone could describe a clarinet as popular as the Buffet as a "POS", is there anything wrong with your ears maybe?
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Author: Linda
Date: 1999-02-20 10:55
My 1964 Buffet plays just as sweetly as it did 35 years ago. I am a strictly amateur player, but I have had fellow members in our band - professioal and amateur alike, and some with brand new Leblanc Noblets and Buffet R-13s! - comment (with envious admiration!) about my tone and intonation. For the $425.00 my parents invested in my musical talents many years ago, I've gotten a lot for the money in anyone's book. I can't comment on other brands of horns, but I have a feeling that the selection of a musical instrument is about as personal a decision as the selection of feminine hygiene (am I right on, ladies?) :-D
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Author: Katherine Pincock
Date: 1999-02-20 13:40
There's one thing that a lot of people have forgotten to comment on in their responses here, and I think it's very important to mention: each player's embouchure, mouth shape, mouthpiece, etc. changes the type of horn that they like. It's possible, as was mentioned before, that you tried some substandard Buffets, but I doubt it, because you tried three different models. However, it's quite likely that for your playing style, your mouthpiece, or whatever, the Buffet just doesn't work for you. When I got my first wooden horn, I got the chance to try several types, including an R-13 and a used 1960s Selmer. At the time, I found that the R-13 was too resistant for me and that I had a lot of trouble, as you mentioned, with intonation. However, I loved the Selmer's keywork (still do, actually). It wasn't until a few years later that I tried a Buffet at a show and fell in love with it on the spot, and I really can't say why. The point is, every person's circumstances are different, and that has a big effect on what horn they buy.
Now that I've ended that little rant (buying whatever horn suits you is a big thing of mine) I will warn you of one thing. Whichever type of horn you choose now, if you ever end up getting yourself an A clarinet, try to make it the same kind. I found it easier to make the switch that way, and it's easier to predict how the A clarinet will react when you play. It also makes it easier blend the sounds, so that you get the same tone quality on both horns.
So enjoy your new Leblanc! Even if I'm not playing the same kind of horn as you are, I remember how great it was to find a horn that suited me.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-20 15:00
Evan,
I accidentally hit a button and sent a blank post.
I myself am an avid Leblanc fan and do not care for Buffets. However that does not make Buffet a bad horn. People look for and desire different sounds, feel, playing characteristics, etc in an instrument. Different makers are trying to address what they think a significant portion of the market segment will want. This results in different brands and models having different characteristics.
What I have observed is that Leblanc players consistently dislike Buffets. There is enough difference that it is noticeable and not in the direction that Leblanc players care for. On the other hand, Buffet players generally dislike Leblancs again because it does not suit what they seek.
You will find converts in each direction as individuals become more knowledgeable about what will suit them and more sophisticated in their selection to purchasing instruments.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-20 15:07
Paul Wusow wrote:
-------------------------------
It's rather unethical to judge an entire brand of clarinets by auditioning only a few. (Obviously those instruments you played were not top notch, or your perceptions are quite different from the majority of clarinetists.) You must remember that for years Buffet has been the premier maker of clarinets in the entire world. It is only in the past few years that other makers have risen to the quality of Buffet. Still, the majority of players play Buffet. That must account for something. Good luck with your new purchase, and get out more often-- and try not to offend others!
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I agree that it is unfair to judge a whole line by a few samples.
I disagree about quality. Both Leblanc and Selmer have made high quality instruments for many decades.
Now Buffet is indeed a quality instrument but they are not better than Leblanc and Selmer either now or in the past. They are more successful however. Marketing techniques and distribution network make a major difference in popularity of a brand and model. Also at this point in time, the particular sound characteristics of a Buffet match what is currently the preferred sound that many (but not all) players want. Forty or 50 years ago, the preferred sound was the Selmer sound. In the future this may change again.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 1999-02-20 15:32
It really surprises me that someone would openly call any professional model an outright POS. Even LeBlanc clarinets, which I personally think have a thin sound, I would not call POSs. It just goes to show you that individuals prefer different clarinets. I certainly do not think less of other players simply for playing a LeBlanc. Maybe you just played on some real dogs. Maybe I played on some real dog LeBlancs. But I would test different setups with different clarinets before I outright called a certain brand a POS. It is all personal preference.
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Author: Ray Swing
Date: 1999-02-20 15:57
Since I am still considering purchasing a pro instrument (have been for about a year now), I'd appreciate some comments on the key work of the various instruments. The feel and responsiveness of the action, and the firmness of the keywork construction are what I would be interested in comments on.Thanks.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-20 17:53
Ray,
Suggest you just try some out for feel. What I consider comfortable may not suit you at all.
Some people like heavy keys because they "feel more solid" while others like lighter keys because they "feel more responsive."
The major makers all have good quality keywork so that really shouldn't be a concern.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-02-20 18:35
My Leblanc plays smooth as silk. REcently i tried my instructor's Selmer and that plays like silk too, maybe even a little smoother and easier blowing (same mouthpiece). I don't think you could go wrong with any pro model.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-02-20 22:12
I used to dream to buy Buffet a RC Pretige when I was a student since my favorite French player did play one.After playing Selmer 10SII and Buffet RC,I bought one.But my preference seemed to be built up by these instruments and disliked it and gave it to my brother(yes he was verrrry glad).My favorite one is my RC with a Kasper #13 mothpiece.Later I found Selmer does designs Recital(reverse tapered and smallest bore) and 10G(bore is 0.574",favorite of Amerian player Anthony Gilliotti) and in between 10S.
Namely Selmer seeks a series of clarinet types.But Buffet design policy seems different.They seem to make all-round clarinets with the exeptions of Elite and Festival.These ones are designed to have built-in darker tones.They are sold not so good,which I do not comes soley from their high prices but from pros' feelings that Elite and Festival are somewhat different Buffets.Each manufacturers have different design policy although my observation is not necessarily true.
Another thing is what each manufacturer does think about intermediate and begginers level products,
Another thing is just a statement of fact:by practicing and listening my preference of tonality changed greatly!Now I have a little frustration with my 10SII.
Lastly,this is the biggest one.I really think modern players seek instruments in which their tonal preference is built-in.But I think it is the player who emits the tones.
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Author: Albert
Date: 1999-02-20 22:28
Hmm, maybe the problemmo is coming from you, Evan! Maybe you're talent can't stand all the way up to a Buffet. You can just stay at the Leblanc level. Hehe. :o) I wouldn't think of trading my Buffy for one of those Leblancs. Yucko. No hard feelings, right?
-Albert
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Author: Nicole Y.
Date: 1999-02-20 22:47
I have played on Buffets. I'm a Leblanc player to the end. Buffet's keys make you feel like you're playing on top of the holes.
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Author: Andy
Date: 1999-02-20 23:20
I completly agree with Albert!! But! it could be some mind trick, maybe somtime in your life someone told you that Buffets are POS's (WHICH THEY ARN'T!!) and it stuck in your mind. Then when you went to try them out you unknowingly made the clarinet sound bad. Maybe?!?!
Also your Persanal Opinion was that Buffets were POS's. So Persanaly I think Buffets are the best I've ever played and that leblanc's are POS's so HA! (no offence or anything)
Also i have a question for you: When was you last CAT scan?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-20 23:46
For those of you rising to the bait:
<b>SHAME</B> on you! If there's one thing you should be learning by reading this bulletin board, it is that instruments and accessories need to be approached as individuals; if the different manufacturers didn't make quality instruments, they wouldn't survive (at least at the mid and professional levels).
Name calling when applied to a reasonably manufactured instruments is below the intelligence of most of our readers; let's not continue with this disgraceful tactic. We can have differing opinions, based on factual evidence, but ad hominem attacks are unwarranted.
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Author: jim lande (lande @ erols.com)
Date: 1999-02-21 03:49
Back in the sixties I was told that the Buffet clarinets had the fastest action but the Selmars were best in tune and i forget what about the LeBlancs.
Well, I could play faster than I could play good, so I ended up with a buffet. When it was stolen a few years back, the insurance Co was happy to pay for another horn but it had to be the exact same model, so I didn't get to choose.
DID YOU TRY THE BUFFET WITH THE MOOUTHPIECE THAT CAME WITH IT? If so, you didn't learn nuttin. Those mouthpieces were a joke. (And my mouthpiece of choice is the $20 Hite Premier, so I am no mouthpiece snob.)
I like my current Buffet R13 a lot, but I also think my son's 1960s vintage LeBlanc Symphony IV is quite good.
Interesting that you can have several clarinets in your orchestra all using different brands. I gather that some big band sax sections used all Conns or all Mark IVs to get a consistent sound.
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Author: Evan
Date: 1999-02-21 04:07
Hey guys
thanks for all of your responses, I wanted to know what people think. I am very sorry if I offended anyone.
I agree with all of you that individual taste is everything, clarinet playing is a very individual art, no two players will play the same, with technique or tone. I know that I love my horn, it seems to have great intonation, tuning feel and speed. Others must like buffets or they wouldn't buy them.
I am just glad I got to hear you guys and that there were so many posts.
thanks
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Author: Evan
Date: 1999-02-21 04:13
Selmers seemed to have some really thick keys on them, Leblanc's very small, Buffets an medium but very high feeling. Some older horns seem to have real strong keys if that is what you are looking for.
Different finishes you should also take a look at
Nickel-soft feeling and not as pretty
nickel silver- stronger, a different look
silver-very strong and smooth, some knew horns have been
known to wear, but some older horns put a real
thick plate on
gold-my girlfriend has a gold plated pete fountain, feels
great and plays great but I think it looks gaudy close
up, especially when not shiny
The best thing for you to do is go play with a bunch, look at all brands, old and knew
post what you come up with
Ray Swing wrote:
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Since I am still considering purchasing a pro instrument (have been for about a year now), I'd appreciate some comments on the key work of the various instruments. The feel and responsiveness of the action, and the firmness of the keywork construction are what I would be interested in comments on.Thanks.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-02-21 10:53
It is customary for every manufacturer to ship their clarinets with too stiff needles, and this stiffness may differ very much.After obtaining one it is diffinitely necessary to adjust needle stiffness to enable smooth fingering.If good repair man is avialable,it's OK but if not we keep having frustrations when we are not good at adjusting them ourselves.Keywork problem may come from these.
p.s.Also register keyelevation is too wide open in all new instruments(not adjusted),which will make 2nd register sounds like 'ooooo'.Good teachers can teach us to adjust about 1mm or even smaller.After playing 20 years I quite recently knew this fact.
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Author: Jim
Date: 1999-02-21 14:38
About that Buffet hater!!!!!!! Remeber folks, Selmer stacked their dollars on Goodman and he needed a bright sound for his jazz style. DeFranco Liked that bright sound when he was with Dorsey. Buffet counted on symphony players for their bread and butter. Hence, the supposedly dark sound that is so desired in todays playing. (That is if there really is a dark sound). Also, Mazzaeo used Selmers when in orchestral assignments as did most of the other names. Buffet came along much after Selmer because of their quality control problem when the company changed hands. More was better for them and that really stung them for awhile. Do they have the uper register problem solved or do they still have to be opened up by a repairman?
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Author: Paul Wusow
Date: 1999-02-21 17:05
Evan wrote:
-------------------------------
Selmers seemed to have some really thick keys on them, Leblanc's very small, Buffets an medium but very high feeling. Some older horns seem to have real strong keys if that is what you are looking for.
Different finishes you should also take a look at
Nickel-soft feeling and not as pretty
nickel silver- stronger, a different look
silver-very strong and smooth, some knew horns have been
known to wear, but some older horns put a real
thick plate on
gold-my girlfriend has a gold plated pete fountain, feels
great and plays great but I think it looks gaudy close
up, especially when not shiny
The best thing for you to do is go play with a bunch, look at all brands, old and knew
post what you come up with
Ray Swing wrote:
-------------------------------
Since I am still considering purchasing a pro instrument (have been for about a year now), I'd appreciate some comments on the key work of the various instruments. The feel and responsiveness of the action, and the firmness of the keywork construction are what I would be interested in comments on.Thanks.Remember... These things can be adjusted by a repairman... spring tension has a lot to do with how an instrument feels and responds technically!
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Author: Paul Wusow
Date: 1999-02-21 17:08
(Tried the Quote Text... now I know how it works...) Anyway... Remember that the feel of a clarinet (technically) has a lot to do with sping tension and this CAN be adjusted by a repairman!
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Author: SeAn
Date: 1999-02-22 01:52
p.s.Also register keyelevation is too wide open in all new instruments(not adjusted),which will make 2nd register sounds like 'ooooo'.Good teachers can teach us to adjust about 1mm or even smaller.After playing 20 years I quite recently knew this fact.
-------------------
after reading this, I checked the register key gap of my RC.
seems to be a 2.5 gap. I'd like to give it a try.
how do you adjust the gap without bending the key??
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Author: Anne
Date: 1999-02-22 02:11
HEY great post! I've never played on a buffet but I just think they are SOOOOO overrated. I play on a Selmer Prologue and it's got a wonderful sound. A few of my friends have Buffet Festivals and they sound like crap sometimes and then they blame it on the reed and i'm like "uh, no, that's your POS horn that you paid $3,000 for on the freakin' black market!" haha. Just thought i'd share.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-22 02:54
Anne wrote:
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HEY great post! I've never played on a buffet but I just think they are SOOOOO overrated.
--------
So, share with us _after_ you've tried one, not before. You're showing a bit of, how should I put it, ignorance here.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-02-22 03:25
Anne wrote:
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HEY great post! I've never played on a buffet but I just think they are SOOOOO overrated. I play on a Selmer Prologue and it's got a wonderful sound. A few of my friends have Buffet Festivals and they sound like crap sometimes and then they blame it on the reed and i'm like "uh, no, that's your POS horn that you paid $3,000 for on the freakin' black market!" haha. Just thought i'd share.
I don't like the Festivals myself. Though i am a devout R-13 player. But i want to buy a Vintage sometime. The Vintage makes my R-13 pale in comparison. As for the other brands. The Opus is good, but way overpriced. And the Selmer 10G is the only Selmer Bb/A that i like but not as much as i like my R-13's.
Though i don't like the Buffet Eb's very much and go with an old Selmer Series 9 (but i dream for a Patricola in the distant future).
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Author: MartyM
Date: 1999-02-22 05:11
I think you need to look at the big picture. I own an R13, vintage R13,concerto,and 10G. I use then like a machanic
needs different tools . granted ,most players dont own this many but ...if you give me 6-10 clarinets of any major manufacturer,i will find you a great clarinet.i am a clinician
for a major company and still feel there are a lot of good
clarinets being made due to compitition.Its a great time to be a clarinet player!!!
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-02-22 05:36
To adjust the register key you need to add or remove key cork on the back end of the key where it hits the body of the clarinet.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-02-22 07:23
Thank you Rick.I have no idea just saying to have repairman
do that.
Another info.Mr.Ridenour writes in his fingering book that the elevation should be 1-1.5 mm.However,another
person(seems a pro or ex-pro) wrote in Klarinet still smaller value (I forgot exact number).
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-22 12:12
Hiroshi wrote:
-------------------------------
Thank you Rick.I have no idea just saying to have repairman
do that.
Another info.Mr.Ridenour writes in his fingering book that the elevation should be 1-1.5 mm.However,another
person(seems a pro or ex-pro) wrote in Klarinet still smaller value (I forgot exact number).
-------------------------------
It might also depend a little bit on the brand and model of the clarinet. Different manufacturers locate and size the register hole differently. As a result a different amount of elevation may be required.
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Author: SeAn
Date: 1999-02-22 16:11
thanx folks.
I cut off a bit of an old mouthpiece patched and stick it to the back of the clarinet under the register key. it reduces the gap to slightly over 1mm, mabbe abt 1.5 mm.
and wow, it really did help in the clarion register. the left hand clarion G to C 's response improve, especially during pianissimo. the slight undertone that I encounter during pianisimmo playing seems to disappear.
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Author: Doug
Date: 1999-02-22 16:23
Concerning the opening of the register key on the Buffet, I
was told once by a very well known repairman how to deal with this: he said, good humoredly, that for 5 cents you
can get the needed tool! Just put a nickel between the
register key pad and the vent, hold that part of the key
down firmly, and press with your other hand on the thumb
end of the register key. When that part has been pressed
down, remove the nickel and you will have the key height
exactly right. Of course, you should be using a cork pad
on the register key, not a skin pad which will sound fuzzy
when the key is close to the vent.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-02-23 06:12
So,semantics teaches us every Buffet is not made the same:its making before bought by Boosey&Hawks,their line of products.....
Yooooouuuurs faithfuuuuuly,
Hiroshi
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-02-24 14:08
Another thing about register key.The hole shape on the cork.It should be shaped conical with the top cut.It is to enhance dispersing of air and to acquire stable contact.Good repair man seem to know this.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-02-26 22:35
Ok, I've let the cat out of the bag too soon with my posting's title, but that's what this BBS is about, right?
Yes, I have a Buffet Festival and I'm only a mere adult novice with it. I probably won't get any better at the art of playing the clarinet. My particular horn will always be able to outclass me. But since it's my hobby, why not invest in something very good and enjoy it? I also take weekly lessons from a very senior pro who prefers classical style to jazz, but he can play anything you throw at him exquisitely well. Yep, he's partial to Buffet, mainly because he's made his living with Buffet clarinets for the last 25 years or so. He played other brands of clarinets before, with sometimes good and sometimes bad experiences. Ditto for his Buffet horns, both good and bad.
The Festival can't help but be a good horn. I believe that it's a premium pro-grade horn. I know its value versus its price. It has blue steel springs for quick responsiveness, undercut tone holes for great tone, silver plated keys for looks and durability, very high grade unstained grenadilla wood, and lots of other "goodies". My particular horn had to be adjusted at first, because (no surprise) it needed some tweaking right out of the box to make it behave and play better. I'm sure this is true for any other clarinet fresh out of the box.
I personally like my Buffet Festival. I took it to a pro technician to get the register key adjusted, get the pads reseated, get the Vandoren mouthpieces planed, get some excess wood shaved off the lower part of the RH joint to get the bell to fit properly (ouch!!). I had my pro tutor adjust the keys and rings for my touch and for proper note-by-note tuning. Most of all, I'm slowly getting used to my horn. All of the other folks on this BBS like their horns for just about the same reason: They've gotten used to it and they know how to make it work for them.
Equivalent Selmer, Yamaha, and LeBlanc horns are just as good as my Festival for the same reasons. There are also good (or great, depending on your experiences and opinions) other brands of clarinet on the market today.
If you like Selmer's pro-grade horns, I can live with it. If you like LeBlanc's classic 1950s era pro-grade horn, I can live with it. If someone has a great Yamaha, Patricola, or other horn, I can live with it.
However, the folks that I genuinely respect are those people who know how to play their horn very well and don't mind showing me as an adult novice how I can get better at the art. I enjoy the differences between people's opinions and tastes. That's where I learn the most, because I can more easily see what's different and more importantly, why it's different.
Saying you highly prefer your brand and explaining why is very highly encouraged. Saying you personally dislike something and explaining why is also encouraged. I believe that voicing genuine differences of opinion when everything else is a direct match-up is okay, too. However, slamming brand x or brand y without justification really isn't very constructive.
I'll go on mentioning my personal preference for my horn. Dee will continue to state her preference. So will Mark. Ditto for all of the other fine folks on this BBS. I'll also continue to look forward to their's and everyone else's very valuable inputs to make me a better player and a better person.
Time for me to quit and go home to practice. I suggest you do the same.
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