 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-12-31 22:01
I downloaded a demo version off the website... How much would you say the cheapest WORKING version would be? Where can you get it?
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-12-31 22:19
If you are a bon-fide student or teacher, you can get a full-blown version for around $250. Go to their website to order, or most good music stores can get it for you. You may need proof that you are a student such as registration papers, etc.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2004-12-31 23:18
finale products are cheaper, depending on what level of functionality you want. e.g., what are you trying to do?
http://www.finalemusic.com
notepad is free
printmusic is $59 (69 if you buy it directly, 59 if you install the free notepad then upgrade. go figure)
the full version of finale is similar to sibelius in price
-paul
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: pewd
Date: 2004-12-31 23:23
each product has its strengths and weaknesses.
some here love finale, hate sibelius.
others, vica versa.
the free notepad will write out a song if its not too complex. its somewhat limited in key changes, number of staffs, etc. but gets the job done for most stuff.
-paul
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Contra
Date: 2004-12-31 23:26
Finale Notepad is pretty good for a free thing. Noteworthy Composer is a great program to use, too. It only costs around $35.99 and can do pretty much anything you want except for bar rests.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-01-01 00:16
If you own Finale, you can get Sibelius for $199. However, that entails spending money on Finale first.
Any of the notation programs can be quite difficult to use until you discover all their eccentricities and shortcut keys. It's taken me a year and a half to finally become comfortable with Finale, and there's still lots that I don't know how to do.
Hence, a Finale user who gives Sibelius a quick one-month try is sure to be incredibly frustrated and dislike the product, as would a Sibelius user trying Finale for a bit.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Jimmy Zhong
Date: 2005-01-01 00:18
Actually EEBaum, I think that goes for any program!
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2005-01-01 01:04
I use PrintMusic from Finale as well. It's a great application for $70 and I'd be surprised of 90% of people don't find every feature they need in it (at substantially less $$ than Sibelius.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-01-01 02:53
I would like to second the endorsement of PrintMusic, especially from the point of view of ease of use. If you just want to bang out something, for transposition purposes or whatever, it's quite simple to figure out, whereas Sibelius seems to be more keyboard driven and chains you to the manual. Plus it's less money.
Sue
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-01-01 03:51
with the free version of finale, can I print stuff off and whatnot? Can I save the song as a midi file and send it online?
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2005-01-01 04:15
Free version of Finale Notepad does not enable you to save your work in any format other than the .mus file.
However, I do believe Finale offers NotepadPLUS for about $30 which does allow the feature.
It just turned 2005 here in NY. Happy New Years!
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-01-01 04:20
The free version is called notepad.
you can print from notepad.
you can send a file in notepad format, which someone else using notepad can read and or print.
you can not generate (output) to a midi file, that requires one of the paid versions.
http://downloads.makemusic.com/forms/product_comparisons.pdf
-paul
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-01-01 05:37
This is so cool! I'm finally getting my composition for piano down... hehe, I'm calling it "Insanity: Op.1, No. 1 in G minor" lol.. Are any of y'all who have finale notepad, and whatnot, interested in hearing my composition so far? I have around 1 1/2 pages... Your comments would be much appreciated...
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2005-01-01 06:45
I have Finale Notepad (which I HATE, Sibelius is so much easier to use). I would be very interested in hearing your composition so far. My email address is in my profile.
PS: Why aren't you calling it "Psychosis: No.1 in g minor"? That would go better with your username.
Post Edited (2005-01-01 06:46)
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-01-01 06:57
heh... if my e-mail will work I'll send it to ya... hehe, insanity fits better... HAHA!
But yeah, this finale notepad thing is pretty good! me like... better than paying $200.00 for sibelius! lol...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-01-01 07:45
"Hence, a Finale user who gives Sibelius a quick one-month try is sure to be incredibly frustrated and dislike the product, as would a Sibelius user trying Finale for a bit."
A friend of mine has been using Finale for about 2 years. He then tried Sibelius and after only 1 week decided it was so much better and he never wanted to use Finale again.
I started with both Finale and Sibelius at the same time and just dropped Finale after a few days and still use Sibelius today.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-01 07:58
Having been a Finale user from about 1990 until about 1998 I can tell you that Sibelius can do everything Finale can do (except make SmartMusic files) and it does in a much more intuitive way. Ask any Finale user what they have to do in order to put a barline (any type) in the middle of a measure. In Sibelius? Click Create>Barline and the kind you want. Point...click. Simple. Finale is not user friendly and never was.
I do appreciate that Coda Music has put out a version like NotePad and I wish Sibelius would as well. But for new users, and MANY older ones, Sibelius is easier to use and at LEAST as powerful as Finale (probably more). Sibelius was created BECAUSE Finale was not user friendly.
I'm glad you are getting to create, Mary. Hooah! for you. I hope if you ever come across a need for the bigger versions, you will get Sibelius. Much better investment in the long run. Take care.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: beejay
Date: 2005-01-01 09:31
Contra,
Are you sure Noteworthy doesn't do bar rests? I seem to recall it does, if you use the layering command.
Noteworthy is an excellent program, very easy to learn and in my opinion the musical equivalent of a straightforward word processor.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-01-01 09:35
I heartily echo the comments in favor of Sibelius, but think that it would be overkill for Mary's purposes. Notepad sounds like a good deal as does the $70 upgrade.
Noteworthy Composer is a terrific program, and it will save pieces as MIDI files. I use it very happily on my website.
I do wish that Sibelius would come up with something like notepad, but competition may well force them to. Finale has a strong market share and a lot of brand name mystique.
But I do not agree that Sibelius is difficult to learn. I struggled and struggled with Finale, and instantly fell in love with Sibelius. It's helped me to produce a lot of arrangements and instructional materials with a minimum of teeth-gnashing. The interface is great and the manual is very easy to use.
Allen Cole
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-01-01 11:03
"But I do not agree that Sibelius is difficult to learn. I struggled and struggled with Finale, and instantly fell in love with Sibelius."
where did you read that? From what I can see in this thread most agree with you that Sibelius is better.
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Author: Guido
Date: 2005-01-01 11:43
I'd also like to pat Sibelius on the back as well...
Sibelius opportunities in arrangement, busting out parts, rapid-fire changes, and LARGE notes have improved our band's performance. At practices, the PC and printer often get a work-out as well, as we morph and improve parts.
Once playing from copies of copies of hand-scribbled melodies and memory, we now just flip alphabetically through pages of professionally printed, boldface/large note sheet music. The consistency in interface is also helpful; your eye knows what to expect in page layout.
'Course, there's no excuses in missing a repeat now. Just can't imagine how we lived without it...
G
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Author: Dan1937
Date: 2005-01-01 12:58
Guido wrote:
> Sibelius opportunities in arrangement, busting out parts,
> rapid-fire changes, and LARGE notes have improved our band's
> performance. At practices, the PC and printer often get a
> work-out as well, as we morph and improve parts.
>
> Once playing from copies of copies of hand-scribbled melodies
> and memory, we now just flip alphabetically through pages of
> professionally printed, boldface/large note sheet music. The
> consistency in interface is also helpful; your eye knows what
> to expect in page layout.
Please look at the quote above. Finale can do the same thing! It's just a matter of learning the software. Any software has a learning curve, and those packages which have greater capabilities may have a steeper learning curve. You don't have to memorize the entire manual; just learn the functions you need at the moment, and soon you'll be proficient. If you'd like to compare the two, check out Steven Powell's book "Music Engraving Today," in which he compares them side-by-side in real-world combinations of functions, and Finale was the winner (by a small margin).
I've used Finale for just over ten years, and love it! Another advantage might be, if you have aspirations to get your music published, most publishers accept scores in Finale format only. But if your needs are not that great, Print Music, or even Notpad, would work well.
Dan
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Author: Dee
Date: 2005-01-01 13:24
MusicTime and its big brother, Encore, are also available from GVOX (www.gvox.com). Although the products changed hands (from Passport to GVOX) and there were some transition issues for awhile, they have been upgraded and have been available for some time now.
Of the various products that I have tried (demos of the Finale line, demo of Sibelius, and GVOX), this pair has the most intuitive, user-friendly interface of any of them. You can be up and composing virtually in minutes without having to refer to the manual except for the most esoteric things. Now I didn't completely investigate the abilities of all the products so there may be different features but for typical compositions, they all should do the job.
Unless you have some really farout needs (like 30 staves per system or something), that you go with the less expensive products like MusicTime or Finale PrintMusic. You can do anything from simple melodies to full orchestral scores with either one.
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2005-01-01 13:25
I second Noteworthy Composer. It is my favorite one because of the flexibility it has.
It's results are not the best looking prints that Sibelius and Finale are capable of, but it has a different approach to note entry where you create the measures as you go, where as Finale where you setup your entire layout and then enter the notes.
I think Finale was really more so designed for conventional music, but Noteworthy has much better flexibility.
It's also more keyboard based than mouse. You youse the arrow keys to move around the staff, and enter notes with enter or rests with space; rather than the drag and click with the mouse.
Not to mention its the cheapest (around $40), and has a full function demo version that places no limitations except inablilty to save a file more than 10 times (although you can get around that by copying/pasting into a new file) as well as notes that say "Unregistered...." whenever you print.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-01-01 13:37
I am a big fan of Finale and the other products they make. Very well designed and easy to use.
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-01-01 20:02
beejay
I remember on the NWC's website forum a topic about not being able to make bar rests. This was a long time ago and I have since lost the NWC program. It might have been added since then.
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Author: Guido
Date: 2005-01-01 20:07
Dan1937 (66.173.227.---) wrote:
<snip>
> I've used Finale for just over ten years, and love it! Another
> advantage might be, if you have aspirations to get your
> music published, most publishers accept scores in
> Finale format only.
Is this true still today? Powell's book is almost three years old, and much water has come over the dam; "classic" software never arrives.
If so, the publishers will continue to hold considerable sway in the marketplace.
And yes, it's whatever learning curve you have opportunity to climb, and what price point draws your good measure.
G
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-01 21:57
<Please look at the quote above. Finale can do the same thing! It's just a matter of learning the software.>
Finale and Sibelius can both put out professional products. (I would argue that Sibelius' playback is better than Finale.) But this is not my point in comparing the two giants of music notation creation.
Finale cannot, and never could, compare to the intuitiveness and ease of use of Sibelius. As you and someone else noted, any program that can wield the power these programs offer will have a learning curve. The point is that Sibelius dramatically reduces that curve and brings powerful tools well within the reach of ordinary people with limited time.
I notice that no Finale user has posited the means of adding a barline (any kind) in the middle of a measure. Sibelius? Choose the barline you want, point-n-click. Done. Aesthetics? Maybe, for some reason you want a stem a little longer (click-n-drag it) or want to change the view of a score in playback (simply change the zoom at the top...WHILE it is playing), how about picking out and working on the clarinet section of a score (highlight the clarinet section and click the "Focus on staves" button at the top when you're done, click it again).
Convenience, ease of use, intuitiveness? Finale cannot, and never could, compare.
[Note: I do admit that there are a couple things that Sibelius has been programed to do in a less convenient way (like changing instruments in a score....you have a clarinet part and decide you want it on alto clarinet, for example, in Finale you simply change the instrument for the line and it changes everything to fit. In Sibelius you create an alto clarinet part and copy the clarinet part to it and then delete the clarinet part.) This does not take away the ~overall~ superiority that Sibelius offers in convenience, ease of use and intuitiveness.]
Finale is trying to catch up with Sibelius in practicality, but they still have a long way to go. I still do not understand why Finale still insists on locking the score during playback. Very annoying to me.
I am more than happy to entertain any other comparisons that might come to mind. Usefulness and ease of use are my pet peeves in software. Big time! NetObjects over Dreamweaver and Frontpage—all can do the same thing, but not all are equal. Wordperfect over Microsoft Word (though I use Word because it is so prevalent). Chesslive! over BlitzIn2. I'm sure you all have your lists too.
Take Care,
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-01-02 04:41
To Clarnibass: The phrase that you questioned was in response to the 8th post in this thread:
To All:
In comparing Finale and Sibelius, there is one chief factor that causes me to learn towards Sibelius while criticizing Finale. That factor is immediately available PRODUCT.
One of the chief sins that I found with Finale was that it required too much specification from the user regarding the appearance of the output. (formatting of documents, # of measures per line in parts, etc.)
Sibelius documents are printable and extractable as final product during any stage of the process. Rather than asking about the details of your desires, Sibelius presents you at all times with a WYSISYG product that you are free either to modify or leave alone. While I have a few things that I like to change from the default, I generally am happy with the program's decisions.
In fact, the thing that I am specifically praising, is Sibelius' willingness to take the initiative and produce SOMETHING instantly exploitable, that I can modify in any way at any time, and at any point in the music. With Finale, I was hitting enough "ctrl-U's" to get carpal tunnel. Admittedly, I have not sampled the post-millenium versions of Finale.
But to sum it up, I think that this is chief among three or four things that Sibelius drew the line in the right place on.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2005-01-02 04:47)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-01-02 05:22
The post-milennium versions of Finale are night and day from the old ones, as is the case with the recent Sibelius releases.
Thankfully, both products are quickly approaching "sane-person-usability" levels, and continue to try to one-up each other.
Another thing to keep in mind before escalating into a "Windows vs Mac"-esque holy war is that different people use software very differently, and my idea of "easy" might be yours of "cumbersome."
As a finale user, I can speak to this:
Finale is becoming increasingly user-friendly in many areas with each new version. There are, however, some areas in which it is extremely irritating. As of 2004, tuplets are still painful, especially at the end of bars. Also, I'm very disappointed in their system of "templates" (if you're kind enough to call them that), custom expressions, and rehearsal letters. My frequent, unusual time changes are also irritating to implement. I think many of these (and other) features could benefit greatly from a complete rewrite, but they seem reluctant to rock the boat.
The best course of action is to find someone who has been using whichever program you decide on for a long time... they've done the detective work and can quickly point you toward the tricks and shortcuts.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-01-02 05:30
Robert Moody wrote: "Chesslive! over BlitzIn2"
What?! What is wrong with Blitzin?! That is what I'm using. Isn't Chesslive a different server than ICC? Or just a different program for the same server? Ic is no doubt the best server.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-02 07:18
For EEBaum and everyone.
<<Finale is becoming increasingly user-friendly in many areas with each new version.>> ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
<<tuplets are still painful,...>>
In Sibelius? Put in the first note of the tuplet (any size tuplet) then click simply Create>Tuplet and enter the size of the tuplet in the window. Continue adding the rest of the notes. Simple and just what a novice might think to do. Even easier...get this...simply enter note of the value in the tuplet you want (i.e. quintuplet of 16ths, enter a 16th) and click Ctrl+# where the number is the size of the tuplet. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
<<...especially at the end of bars.>>
In Sibelius? Doesn't matter where. Same process, ease and efficiency as above.
<<...custom expressions...>>
In Sibelius? Click a note you want the expression to reference to and then Create>Text>Expression (or simply Ctrl+E) and type. If you right-click instead of type, you can select the most common ones and they will actually affect the music appropriately.
If you really want to get funky, you can look at the Character Map and copy odd characters for the font being used in your score (i.e. Times, Inkpen [hand], etc.)
<<...and rehearsal letters.>>
In Sibelius? Click the barline you want to associate your rehearsal marking with and click Create>Rehearsal Marking (or Ctrl+R). If you have not put any rehearsal markings in...it simply asks you what you want to start with. You can enter a number or letter. Any future ones you add go in sequence...before or after one another. Add one in-between? It adjusts those before and after.
<<My frequent, unusual time changes are also irritating to implement.>>
In Sibelius? *giggles* Click Create>Time Signature (or Ctrl+T) and for your odd time signatures, simply click the radio button for entering the top and bottom numerals. Your cursor will turn blue (meaning it is loaded and ready to enter something) and you point and click where you want the time change. Sibelius will ask if you want to redraw all the following measures or just that one.
I am more than happy to take the time to show these things because anyone, Finale experts or raw novices to computer music notation, can see that these methods on Sibelius are intuitive and relatively simple. You, a recognized Finale user (at least a year and half under your belt), have just pointed out five issues that are intuitively and efficiently done on Sibelius...which are annoying on Finale 2004.
Earlier you mentioned, <<Hence, a Finale user who gives Sibelius a quick one-month try is sure to be incredibly frustrated and dislike the product, as would a Sibelius user trying Finale for a bit.>>
This is somewhat funny (no offence intended). I have put this challenge to a number of Finale users and the absolute ONLY one not to switch to Sibelius (or at least sing accolades for it and saying that they would switch) was the one who refused to try Sibelius. His excuse, "I just don't have the time." He admitted that he never even installed the demo.
For everyone: If you are merely needing to get some notes on a page and printed out, help yourself to NotePad and the other cheap or free notation programs. They really do a fine/adequate job for that. If you ever need to step up and do some real arrangements or scores or need (or simply want) professional output for you work, Sibelius, I suggest, is your answer.
Take Care,
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-01-02 08:21
I seem to remember my professors being upset about certain missing features in Sibelius, but I forget what they are. Perhaps I'll have to give it a try (found academic pricing for the competitive upgrade; $150 total). The last thing I need is something more to suck up my free time at the moment... regardless, I'll wait until I'm finished revising my latest piece and printed the appropriate copies. I intend to write a piece for full wind ensemble (with big percussion and all) this spring; I just wonder if trying another notation program is more trouble than it's worth given the circumstances. Perhaps waiting until the summer would be wiser.
*sigh*
If I do get a copy of Sibelius, though, then FINALLY I'll be able to offer a semi-educated opinion of the benefits and shortcomings of each. By and large, most opinions I find are by die-hard users of one product or the other and/or based on old versions of the competitor's software (e.g. "Finale 2005 is much better than Sibelius 1", or "Sibelius 3 blows Finale 2000 out of the water").
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Guido
Date: 2005-01-02 10:45
Regarding Dan1937's contention...
I'm still interested in hearing that publishers do _favor_ or accept _only_ Finale based scores...an incredible situation if true.
Can anyone confirm/deny this?
G
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Author: Mark Cookson
Date: 2005-01-02 11:39
Just to add to this interesting thread, I was using the free Finale Notepad version to prepare music for my teaching, but I found I came up against the limitations of the free version pretty quickly.
I'm now using Lilypond (http://lilypond.org/) for all my music preparation.
It's an open-source, free program. The initial learning curve is a bit steeper than other programs (essentially you prepare a source file describing your music, then run it through lilypond to produce the output), but with a bit of persistence you can do just about anything.
The Mutopia Project (http://www.mutopiaproject.org/) has a large number of public domain scores available for download, all created in Lilypond, if you're interested in seeing what the program is capable of doing.
Mark
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-01-02 14:29
OK, this is now going down the long tunnel of "mine is better than yours" - "no , it's not". There are dedicated BBoards for both Sibelius and Finale; both are exceptionally good and professional tools, and commercially acceptable music (well, almost - neither produces output yet comparable to the best typeset or engraved plates IMNSHO but far better than the average typeset or engraved plates).
Thread closed.
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The Clarinet Pages
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