 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Celeborn
Date: 2004-11-04 01:43
I am a freshman in high school, and the band here contains upperclassmen clarinet players who, well, frankly aren't that good. In fact, I am quite a bit better, especially where tone quality is concerned. Not that they're bad or anything, I just don't think it matters to them very much. The band director seems to recognize this, and the whole situation can feel akward at times. I'm sure someone here has been in this kind of position before. How do older students and the band director, especially the band director, tend to handle this with regard to various items of seniority such as chair placement or other such matters? I don't care about being first chair or recognized in some other way, but I don't want to be viewed as or characterized in an unpleasant way.
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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-11-04 01:48
Where I went to high school, we had four blind (anonymous/by number) auditions spread over several weeks to determine chair placement. It didn't matter who you were- it mattered how you played. Very fair, I thought. And quite fun for aggressive freshmen!!! Good Luck.
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Author: Contra
Date: 2004-11-04 01:53
It depends with us. In marching band, we just sat in a loose chair order. It wasn't official or correct. In concert band, we have a chair test on the 11th. That just decides it. Seniority doesn't really matter.
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2004-11-04 12:26
well, im a senior now, but when i was a freshman, there were only a few who really didn't enjoy seeing me being in a higher postition. They thought that if they were older, they were better. They were probably more mature than me in some ways, but i could play better. You just have to live with it, play even better and piss em off even more, lol.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-04 13:45
When I started as a freshman, I ended up getting 1st chair over many seniors, who as you described, weren't good and didn't care. I also placed higher than one or two people that WERE trying to be good.
I wanted to avoid complications (not to mention during most of high school I didn't care that much) so I had no problem with them SITTING in the first chair, as long as I got to play 1st clarinet music. I figured, "It's high school, and I have three more years after this one to sit in the front if I want."
Other than that I kept my trap shut about it just lived on in silence playing the music as best as I could.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-11-04 15:21
The high school my sons attended, had blind auditions, with placement determined by the rest of the band (excluding the section being auditioned) voting. It seemed to work for them. It definitely takes the director off the hook.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-04 15:55
I don't think that very many band directors place their students over social concerns, unless those students are fairly close in ability level anyway. The only school where I am currently seeing auditions in action uses blind auditions and I think that the results are pretty accurate.
However, I am not sure that I would place a hot-shot freshman above senior above a senior who has nearly the same ability and who has served the band well over the years. Much of this is because of the duties of section leadership. If you have a player who plays well, has worked his/her way up through the ranks, and can command the respect of the section as a whole, it would be difficult to put a freshman on top just because of a slight edge in playing skills. (one think in favor of the band voting, is that they will generally consider this as well)
The problem, of course, lies in the fact that abilities levels in the average high school player are very poor--and often well below that on colleagues who play other instruments. Given this, there may not be a senior of comparability to a freshman who really practices.
Every year, I have private students go in as freshman and shoot past all the other students in ability level and chair placement. It's not hard to do in this area. But it can be as unhealthy for the hotshot freshman as it is for the displaced upper classmen.
Zipping to first chair can be a bit much for young egos, and can rob students of motivation to improve and explore. I've seen a number of private students squander tremendous potential because they were big fish in a small pond.
Allen Cole
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-04 17:01
Quote:
However, I am not sure that I would place a hot-shot freshman above senior above a senior who has nearly the same ability and who has served the band well over the years. Much of this is because of the duties of section leadership. My school was (at least from hearing the stories here) I guess very fair in how they did things. We had blind auditions by our instructor to determine chair placement. However he did not allow a freshman to be a section leader but instead asked a senior to do it (due to seniority). Quote:
If you have a player who plays well, has worked his/her way up through the ranks, and can command the respect of the section as a whole, it would be difficult to put a freshman on top just because of a slight edge in playing skills. As was the case in my school (again). If a fresman could JUST outplay another senior, they were given a first part, but the senior was given any solos, first chair, etc. and it was up to him/her whether to step down and allow someone else to sit there or play their solos.Quote:
Zipping to first chair can be a bit much for young egos, and can rob students of motivation to improve and explore. I've seen a number of private students squander tremendous potential because they were big fish in a small pond. I unfortunately fell victim to this. High school I was never big into band, and I think mainly because there wasn't enough of a challenge there for me. I was more into sports (since they were more of a challenge and I wasn't 'automatically' varsity.
And now in my community college it's the same thing. I'm trying to practice scales and I'm buying some fun (yet technical) solos to work on because I KNOW that it's harder in other places, but I still have no basis of comparison nor have I yet been able to get lessons. We'll see how it is when I transfer to a four-year school. I literally HOPE TO GOD that there is a great clarinetist there so I have a goal to set (hehe . . . be able to beat her/him for chair placement).
Also, don't think I'm braggin here, cause I'm definitely not. I'm at a weaker music school. To give you an idea, all the music I'm playing for our college wind ensemble (which has maybe twelve members total . . . the rest are friends of the instructor that are asked to sit in and 'beef it up'), all its music is in the key of Bb with the exception of one song. Simply because people have enough trouble with the Bb scale, let alone throwing in some sharps or flats (frustrating for me, but it has to be done to accomodate those players). Also, the level of music is on par with stuff that I could easily play in high school.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-11-04 17:03)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-11-05 05:27
Man, when you said "lousy older students" I thought you might be teaching some 50-somethings that played quite badly. At 23, you make ME feel old!
A good high school player who is content to make the most out of the third part is worth his weight in gold, though very few people realize that. Very few high schools that I hear seem to value anything but the first part, and it took me a few years into college before I realized that third part can be extremely fulfilling and is often the most important, and certainly the most overlooked part in the ensemble.
Just because you can't obviously hear it blaring through the ensemble, doesn't mean it's not incredibly important. If you make the absolute most out of whatever part you're currently on, you'll be sure to move up, if you find that important. In the past two years, I've NEVER played a second or third part to perfection, though I've tried... but in high school I always seemed to THINK that I had the first part absolutely nailed.
When was the last time you heard a high school director say "All right, that was excellent, thirds!"? But when was the last time you saw a director that WISHED they could say it?
If I were your director, I would put the top "low seniority" player at the head of the third section. Let the seniors have their fun on first while the thirds make the ensemble really sound good.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-11-05 11:36
Rodney Dangerfield lives...
Bob Draznik
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-06 04:57
I think that there's a lot to be said for that approach, Alex. The thirds should have at least one (if not two) strong players to help pull the others into line.
The only problem with implementing it is the fact that so many schools are short on players who can deal with their high range. I think that this may be a large part of what started this thread. Weak embouchures on high parts can do so much damage, that the strong players tend to get clustered on the first book--even if the director shares your sentiments.
Of course, this leads back to a problem much bigger than the scope of this thread. <g>
Allen Cole
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-11-06 12:21
Attitude like this is insidious, and personally destructive.
Look it up - it's one of the seven deadly sins.
If I were in your section, and got wind of this - I would either vote you off the island or send you out for a Kohler rinse.
(When you're a Band Director in your own right - you choose.)
Bottom line - play what's on YOUR chart and suck it up.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-06 12:59
Absolutely ditto with synomymous botch. Ultimately the director is the boss. You can have all the opinions you want, but, sorry, it's not a democracy, it's a dictatorship.
Sue
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-11-06 13:20
They're just jealous - ignore it.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-11-06 18:47
While I did not experience that situation myself, a couple of my clarinet students did last year, one who was a Grade 7 student in a 7-9 school , and the other a Grade 9 student in a 9-12 school. Both had been studying about two years with me at the time. The second student ended up playing 1st clarinet in the intermediate band and 3rd clarinet in the senior band (there are three bands at his school), and this year is principal in the intermediate band and playing 2nd clarinet in the senior band. The first ended up playing saxophone in the Grade 7 band and clarinet in the Grade 9 band last year, and this year is playing sax in the Grade 8 band and clarinet in the Grade 9 one. (In both cases, the teacher wanted them because of their sound)
Then I've had high school students in which most of my 11-13 year-old students could run circles around them in terms of their level of playing...
Meri
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-11-06 22:47
When a student is lousy I make them shave their heads...
really!
David Dow
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-07 00:20
Botch, I assume that your post is in reaction to the initial posting of this thread. Is that correct? I don't have that much of a problem with that post, but I do think that the subject line used was a bit strident.
I think that there's a balance to be struck here. While I don't generally advocate handing section leadership or responsibilities to a new band member, I do think that players do have some right to be concerned and at least inquire about their status when placed behind weaker players--particularly if the difference in ability is significant.
That said, I agree with you that the music director's word is the bottom line. Once the decision is made, the musician has to either take it or leave it--although leaving it can have consequences.
Your comment about getting "voted off the island" hit me like an electric shock, because I have heard those EXACT words recently used in reference to an adult community band member whose situation is similar to that of Celeborn. While this player is very good, he has experienced a lot of alienation coming out of a superior attitude (outwardly, at least) and constant attempts to advise and instruct his section mates--many of whom have at least semi-professional credentials.
Celeborn, beware of what you say in band. It is one thing to talk to the director about your issue. It is quite another to go around talking about how good you are and dispensing unsolicited advice to your section mates. You will best earn the respect of your section mates while quietly doing your job. Eventually you will be rewarded.
This issue is one of great importance as we develop strong students at a young age. I agree with Meri that you can often get much more performance from a new sixth grader than you can from a jaded ninth grader. As we develop hotshot players, we need to make proper attitude a part of their training.
Allen Cole
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-11-07 06:15
"when placed behind weaker players"
Not to be a utopian snot, but I think the very mentality of being placed behind someone causes a lot of the friction. When I think of playing "under" (behind) someone, I now mainly think of it as whose style, intonation, and dynamics it is now my challenge to match. Variety of sections, rather than being on top, is what I appreciate most. I think that in many ensembles, section players don't know how to be section players. Directors always say "blend and balance!" but rarely actually explain what it means and how to achieve it... with such insight, I've found being a section player often more fun than being first on a part.
You're not just filler... it's the rest of the players on a part that determines the sound of the section, and they can make or break the quality of the first chair players' sound.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-11-08 22:06
Allen, I'm interested in the original post from Celeborn.
I think your line of reasoning is well-considered and balanced.
****
The core issue...
Backbiting and snivelling chap my hide.
Better they hear it from a group that can't dope slap than in person.
I just wish I had heard the same message when I was 16 - it was enough to derail ANY interest band music when I was exposed to it then.
So - to Celeborn; time for some mental hygiene - clean up your act, you have no influence over those around you.
Post Edited (2004-11-08 22:07)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-09 03:03
>"The core issue...
>Backbiting and snivelling chap my hide."
Amen.
Allen Cole
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Author: Celeborn
Date: 2004-11-13 20:40
Well, I am often referred to as being "flippant." I do try to tone it down though, so as not to offend people, but I suppose I can't really help it to some extent. The purpose of my posting wasn't to complain about my fellow musicians, but to find out how to keep them from hating me.
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