 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-07-21 20:39
This was in response to clarisax's post about getting a swab stuck in the clarinet, and GBK's question of there being a wrong direction to swab. I figured it should be read by a lot to hopefully avoid what I recently had to go through.
I get all my clarinet stuff from this master repair man, Albert Alphin, who lives in Needham, MA. Yes, there is a wrong direction to put the swab through, as he tells me and I experienced first hand, sadly. The correct way to put the swab in is from Barrel to Bell...It can get stuck that way but it is much easier to get it out. If you put the swab through from Bell to Barrel, it is significantly harder to get it out, especially if you keep pulling on it, trying to get it out. I did this once about a week or two ago and it made me want to cry. I had the worst-stuck-swab-in-a-clarinet he'd ever seen and it took us 2 HOURS to remove it without seriously damaging the bore of the top joint. It was so stuck that he had to remove most of the keys, and usually one would take out the tube from the register key that causes swabs to get stuck, but it was somehow completely wrapped around that tube and was unable to be removed. After much use of a drill and hooks and ripping and such to try and grab the swab and get it out and even burning part of the swab, I was finally left, 2 hours later, with a shredded swab and a slightly damaged bore (screw marks and such from all the prodding inside to get the swab out). However, he tested it and repaired some things and made sure it was fine, and it still plays exactly the same, no difference whatsoever. THANK GOD! I was almost in tears, for I've had this instrument only a few months.
All in all, don't make the mistake I made. And I will say that it was such a worst-case scenario because I and my friends kept pulling to try and get the thing unstuck.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-07-21 21:18
To avoid a terrible smell
And causing the blackwood to swell,
And mop up the muck
Without getting stuck,
Always swab from barrel to bell.
--DKP
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-07-21 21:20
Absolute nonsense in my opinion, I swab from bell to barrel all the time. If anything the bell creates a kind of funnel to make the swab enter more easily.
If you sort the swab out properly before hand, and make sure you have a good quality one, you will not have a problem.
The problem comes from the shape of some swabs, I personally recommend the tapered ones.
There is no one answer to this, and it does happen. However, I can't agree that there is a wrong way to swab your clarinet!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-07-21 21:22
http://www.symphonynb.com/
David Dow
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-07-21 21:26
If your pull-through gets stuck in your bore,
Then pulling will just make it sore,
But whichever end you choose,
You quite frankly can't lose,
As long as your swabs from a good store!
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2004-07-21 21:41
D Dow,
symphonynb.com appears to be under construction. What is it?
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-07-21 21:41
From Selmer's web site:
"Of course, the inside of the instrument will be wiped by
passing the swab from the bell towards the top by
pulling gently on the piece of string."
From Buffet's web site:
"Note: Pass a swab through the barrel towards the bell. Otherwise, it can be caught by a tube protruding inwardly in the upper part of the top joint."
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-21 22:41
I agree with this thread's TITLE, the advice from the makers and those great poems, Swab From Top DOWN. Not only is it much easier to retrieve a "sticking swab", any moisture from the upper areas, on the swab will tend to clean the bore below and equilibrate the desireable moisture in the lower portions of the bore, AND it will do the least "pulling on/disruption of" the register tube, where NO leakage is very important. My thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Burt
Date: 2004-07-21 23:25
I learned the hard way. I got the swab out, ruining it, with my flute rod.
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2004-07-21 23:39
Swab story....
Buffet cotton swab pulled through just before the downbeat to Bolero.
Clarinet very stuffy during performance.
Afterwards looked down the bore and noticed a small piece of material lodged against the register tube.
The legend on the little tag read "Made in India."
Chamois pullthroughs ever since.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-07-21 23:45
I find that the silk swabs work great and slide right through.
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2004-07-21 23:58
That should have read "upbeat to Bolero"
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-07-22 00:17
Mmmmm, guess I'll be a heretic, after getting a chamois swab stuck because the string came loose I started using old cotton handkerchiefs for swabs. Mainly due to the fact that they seem to be a perfect size and if the string comes loose you can always grab the tail and pull it out. They also soak up slobber better then silk. Further, when dirty just throw it in the washing machine with your underwear and a bit of bleach. They even go down the effer. For the bass I tie two together.
Now I know someone is going to jump all over me about the fact that cotton sheds lint and I suppose it does but I've never had a problem with lint in the tone holes and since I started using them never again did a swab get stuck in a clarinet 5 minutes before a concert.
Oh yes, I always swab starting at the bell.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2004-07-22 00:21)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-07-22 00:19
Chamois can rot, puncture, tear, catch, jam just as easily as cloth.
A pull through needs to be well designed, tough, absorbent, 'springy' (to contact the bore), lint-free, used with care (no doubling, knots or tangles), and replaced when it deteriorates.
Natural chamois is often rather UN-absorbent, especially when it is dry.
Silk is good, if it is of an appropriate type. See sponsor - Doctor's Products.
The appropriate TYPE of microfiber is possibly also ideal, e.g. the sort sold for cleaning spectacles.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-07-22 00:30
To muddy the waters a bit:
One theory of "blown out" clarinet " holds that repeated swabbing eventually erodes the polycylindrical bore at the step-offs where the bore changes dimension. Thus the gentlest swab is best.
Direction?
Top to bottom (barrel to bell)....erodes top of barrel....easily replaced if needed. Less sticking
Bottom to top.....erodes the step-offs but gets more water on a pass-through.
Who does what?
I have seen symphony players do it either way.
Material?
IMHO silk dries out the fastest and seems to do a good job. Chamois is for cars...and overated, and does shed "trace evidence". Cotton often too thick and gets caught the easiest.
Brand?
I like Omar Henderson's design best. Gem is ok. Gigliotti swab looks intriguing but is costly.
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2004-07-22 00:40
The one I use is by BG and of a chamois-style material. Should have been more specific.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-07-22 01:42
Tilt the clarinet on a 45 degree angle with the bell facing up and the keys facing down (register key facing up). Carefully arrange the silk swab before droping the swab down the bell to and thru the barrel. While holding onto the end of the swab end flip the clarinet so the bell faces down and on a 45 degree angle and with the keys facing down again. Carefully draw the swab up thru and out of the barrel. The other direction puts a lot more strain on the swab and is more apt to jam in my clarinet. Sorry Buffet. But thats just my clarinet.........
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-07-22 03:05
I cleverly replaced the base of my clarinet stand with a 1500 watt hair dryer. I never have to worry about warming up, don't need to swab, and I am never bothered by waterlogged pads.
Another benefit includes getting great deals on those 68mm barrels no one else wants. Reeds dry out fast though. Must find a different synthetic reed that won't melt down as fast as those last ones. Doc, have you done a study?
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Author: kdennyclarinet
Date: 2004-07-22 05:58
The hairdryer comment sounds like a neat idea, but does that dry heat do something bad to the wood? That made me raise an eyebrow.
I used to swab religiously from bottom to top... now I swab religiously from top to bottom. My swab got stuck three times as I did it from bottom to top and had to be "surgically" removed. I've never had a swab get stuck by pulling from top to bottom as the initial post suggests. The reason is that if it does get stuck, it gets "stuck" too soon to become a major problem. Because it meets the vent tube FIRST, the tragedy can be avoided easily.
I prefer silk swabs... they move through the bore easier and seem to absorb well. Of the swabs that became stuck, two were cotton and one was silk... not sure if that really has anything to do with it... it would seem that the direction has more of an effect than material. However, I still vote silk for its better absorption.
K. Denny
BME, MM, DMA
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Author: mags
Date: 2004-07-22 08:22
I use the pull through from my saxophone kit. It is a van doren ..very small piece of chamois...for the crook of the sax....It is small and absorbent
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-07-22 11:11
OK . . . how 'bout this.
I pour a pound of kitty litter through the clarinet (definitely bell to barrel to take advantage of the built-in funnel) after playing. Not only does it eliminate the need for swabbing, but it keeps my clarinet and case smelling TidyCat clean. Need to avoid the clumping variety though. It's also important to use only new kitty litter. While much debate rages over whether to pour the kitty litter through the mouthpiece as well, I prefer to take the cautious approach and dry the mouthpiece separately with the aforementioned hairdryer.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-07-22 11:12
This whole conversation reminds me of the time years ago when a young and inexperienced friend of mine helped fix my car. He forced the hood closed thinking that the spring was unusually resistant. What he needed to do instead was to remove the rod support provided with the car to prop the hood up. The support finally gave way, but not before the hood was bent.
While swabbing, one could be sensitive and realize that the swab is getting tight and then gently back it out and try again. Inexperienced ones could easily think that all that's needed is more force and then find themselves in a pickle. But of course this involves a little common sense.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-07-22 11:24
"...The other direction puts a lot more strain on the swab and is more apt to jam in my clarinet."
I suppose it all depends where the manufacturer left sharp edges on the inserts projecting into the bore.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-07-22 11:29
Now shall we talk about which part of the keywork should be wiped first, and in what order the parts should be returned to various different case configurations, or how many degrees to turn the ligature screws to release the reed......
:-)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-22 12:05
It is interesting that no one has made an ideal swab yet. I've tried most of them. Most are too bulky and the tiny cheap ones leave lint behind. Brenda's caution is right on...if it feels like it ain't going easy STOP and pull it back out. I have the best luck with the ones sold by Jeanne'....however, I remove the light bulb pull chain and crimp on a few fishing "sinkers". No, I'm not worried about getting lead poisoning. Someone should engineer a swab with a replaceable "string" that would break at that precipitous load that would cause jamming . I do find both the plain old handkerchief and the "swab with a tail" ideas laudable. Chamois is great for keywork.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-07-22 13:29
Perhaps the register key tube could be redesigned to eliminate the obstruction! Possibly a chamfer or radius or altered length on the register key tube would surfice to help eliminate the obstruction. Never the less it could be worth investigating.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-22 14:02
BobD and avumba, Help IS available in our Cl literature and horn design !! In Keith Stein's "The Art of Clarinet Playing" pg 10-11, his design of a swab is shown and described. I made up one for each of my Bb's and Basses and they are very satisfactory, and their long-triangular shape is "non-sticking without warning" re: the tubes. I know of only a few designs of the register tube, which are of "standardized" length, BUT, the better ones [IMHO] are those which have a "boss" on the OUTSIDE of the U J, whereby the tube's projection into the bore is only about 1/4 of the bore diameter, instead of about 1/2, [if surface-located" ]. Also it seems to me that the pinch Bb's are improved [on my LeBlancs and Selmers] . My observations, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2004-07-22 14:25
I purchased a silk swab and found that the silk did not attract the moisture and left some behind in the barrel ends and joint ends, so I switched to the Vandoren micro-fiber swab(maroon color) which is superb.
jmsa
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-07-22 14:49
If everybody would just buy swabs off The Doctor we wouldn't be having this conversation!
Seriously, can't recomment his new swab enough. Brilliant every time.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-22 16:37
Don't know about the "new" one but the "old" black one I purchased is, IMHO, a bit bulky.
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-07-22 19:32
By the way, the swab I used then and still do use (a new one of course, since my old one is now shredded and such), is a Vandoren Micro-Fiber Swab.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-07-22 19:54
NO swab will get into the sockets....For that I use a microfiber cloth and my surgeonesque fingers.
I have used the doctors' (Omar Henderson) swabs ....the old and now the new. Both work well, but the piping or stitchery on the new one does not fray, so it is better.
I used another brand of silk swab that had an inner core...it came in a conical tube and was sold on ebay...it had a catchy name .....it would NOT get through my Recital Bb nor my R13 A.....so I gave it to a friend who has an older Noblet or Conn and it worked fine in the wider bore.
ON another note..........I see that Hawking has revised his black hole theory. After reading some of the stories about swabs in bores, I wonder if his new theory was researched using dark objects with cyclindrical holes.
(hoo boy....I sense a whole new can of vermiculars has been openned)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2004-07-22 19:57)
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2004-07-22 20:06
Fred --
Great ideas: the hairdryer and kitty litter! I shall implement them immediately. I assume you also removed that pesky register tube (after all, no one sees it; how important can it be?), thereby ensuring smooth swabbing.
Todd W.
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2004-07-22 20:14
To kdennyclarinet:
"I used to swab religiously from bottom to top... now I swab religiously from top to bottom."
It's not that I'm doctrinaly bent,
But I buggered my register vent.
So I inverted my swab, and repeated the job,
religiously with righteous intent.
Bob A
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-07-22 21:10
OK, So if Hawking (see above post) is correct, there will be less distortion if the black hole is less massive, so physics favors barrel to bell.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-22 21:56
Well Done, Bob A, couldn't say it better!.. Re: Hawking, am still pondering "dark matter'" and other terms describing??? what we DONT know/understand. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-07-22 21:58
Don Berger,
I just checked pg. 11 of Keith Steins "The Art of Clarinet Playing" and did see the 5x10 triangular silk hankerchief diagram. He also states in the same paragraph to draw the silk hankerchief from Bell to top so that any dampness is pulled back out rather than on through the clarinet. A very logical and important point that was not mentioned because most of the moisture is in the upper joint and barrel. Thanks. AV
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-22 22:21
Gosh, AVB, guess I should have read the "fine print", he ALWAYS makes
good sense in what he says/said, except once, when he was conducting a reh. of Mich St's band when he made reference/analogy to "powerful playing" as "more meat". It broke us up!, to embarassment on his part! IS THIS OK, MC and GBK ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-22 22:51
Let's not forget that the aim of swabbing is not to get ALL the moisture out of the bore. AND ....with a less bulky swab you may pull it through more than once, you know.....no law against it. That extra step of wiping the joints is just as important. I am always amazed at how fast young players can put their horns away after rehearsal.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-07-23 02:47
Some clarinets are just hell on swabs. I can't tell you how many swabs I ruined with Buffet clarinets (rips, holes, snags, runs, fraying at the edges - you name it) until I finally settled on a Selmer Signature. Since then, I've only had to use one swab, which I get brannenized every two years or so.
My advice: try as many clarinets as possible, even several of the same brand, until you find one that won't damage your swab. Most reputable retailers will let you try your swab on many clarinets - if they don't, shop elsewhere.
For a complete history and list of works for the swab (including a discussion of low/german versus high/french thread count) see: John Raghill's "The Swab and its Repertoire." (clothebound or paperback edition)
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2004-07-23 03:03
A friend of mine never had problems with swabs getting stuck in his clarinet until he bought the Gigliotti Swab No-Jam swab....
I use the Doc's swab. I love that thing. I met him today at Clarinetfest. Nice dude.
--CG
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-07-23 03:06
Yes. The taper of the swab is the key.
Moennig first described the reverse taper swab, although some allege that he merely adapted a common German practise.
Later, Chadash changed he swab taper and added a delrin bob instead of the plasticized lead sinker. Actually OSHA mandated an end to lead sinkers under the Carter administration.
Backun does my swabs now. They have cocobolo weights, but require oiling of the weight to keep it from cracking.
As far as Brannen goes, they will NOT Brannenize a cotton swab. Call ahead to make sure that they will accept your swab.
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Author: kdennyclarinet
Date: 2004-07-23 05:22
Yes... and once your swab is Brannenized, you must not allow any other repairman to work on it for the Brannens will know and will refuse it in the future... they are the soup nazis of repair!
NO SOUP FOR YOU!
ha ha
K. Denny
BME, MM, DMA
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-23 13:16
Guess the story about the clarinet playing proctologist would be out of order.
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2004-07-23 16:16
He played bass clarinet
and his licence plate read..........Bassman
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-25 00:08
"Later, Chadash changed he swab taper and added a delrin bob instead of the plasticized lead sinker. Actually OSHA mandated an end to lead sinkers under the Carter administration."
My agency (OSHA; I've been with them since 1974 and manage the safety side of the equation for the south part of Houston) has caused any number of things over the years, but one thing that they have not done is to mandate the end of the lead, and the similar lead and brass wire sinker weight. Our mandate only extends to employer employee relationships, and the production and use of lead and lead objects is still permitted (with appropriate measures like no airborne lead fume and washing before eating),
Lead shot (in shotgun loads) was the subject of a lot of concern (ducks eat it to fill their little gizzards in order to grind up their food) back in the 1970's, and I think that lead shot for bird hunting has (for the most part) been phased out. My US Army prison guard nephew informs me that the shotgun loads they still use are still of the plumbium nature. Don't have to worry about felons gobbling it up, I guess...
As for fail safe swabs, someone is marketing one with a pull string on each end. Don't recall where I saw this, but it was in the last three or four months.
I use a silk swab on the sopranos, but have found that a rag and wire swab for the long joint of the bassoon works best for the bass. Never had any fluff problems, but I always blow out the joints as I assemble the horn.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-07-25 13:35
Terry -
you're absolutely right! I think CPW confused OSHA with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).
Of course, led in swab became a regulated parameter when Congress reauthorized the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) in 1986, and EPA published its final Led In Swab (LIS) rule under the Enhanced Surface Water Treatment Rule (ESWTR) in 1990. But that only delegated regulatory primacy to states and tribal authorities for public drinking water supplies. Parallel to the SDWA/ESWTR LIS regulations, EPA also listed led in swab as a limiting pollutant for freshwaters under the Clean Water Act (CWA) Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL) rules, but has to date only established guidance values. Finally, the Army Corps of Engineers (ACOE) regulates swab led in all navigable waters and wetlands greater than one acre.
See how long this thread stays open.
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-07-25 15:04
No I was not confused.....I was just inventing a funny scenario to play off of the Brannenized swab allusion....IT'S A JOKE!!!
Another poster privately lamented to me that Mercury is no longer available in hospitals as a weight for gastrointestinal tube use (Miller Abbott tube). This from the Joint commission on hospital accreditation (JCHO) which oversees medical stuff and makes life miserable for administrators. It proves the addage that:
Those who can....do
Those who can not....teach
Those who can not teach....are politicians and bureacrates.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-25 15:34
[ Sadly, this thread has now reached its termination point and is closed - GBK ]
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The Clarinet Pages
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