 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: james ramey
Date: 2004-04-26 09:55
All the media attention to the stupid NFL draft has inspired me to create
my top ten list of CLARINET CONCERTOS WITH ORCHESTRA.
This list is based on 35 years of playing,teaching , and listening.
Here is my list in order;
MOZART CONCERTO
DEBUSSY RHAPSODY
COPLAND CONCERTO
WEBER CONCERTINO
WEBER CONCERTO #2
WEBER CONCERTO#1
NIELSEN CONCERTO
ARTIE SHAW CONCERTO
STAMITZ CONCERTO#3 INBb
SPOHR CONCERTO #1 IN Cm
I pitty the other wind players that cant even list ten concertos, and I would hold up this list to the top ten violin or piano concertos.
JIMMY
james ramey
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-04-26 17:05
NFL draft? Is that on now? I stopped watching TV news a couple years ago. It's quite refreshing.
What, no Corigliano?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-26 18:15
james ramey said:
> and I would hold up this list to the top ten
> violin or piano concertos.
Perhaps you would, but most concert audiences wouldn't.
As much as I despise top 10 lists, for their subjectivity can never be proven, there is no rational way one can justify Stamitz #3 (just one example on your list) in the same breath as some of the monumental piano concerti by Liszt, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Beethoven, Brahms, Prokofiev, Ravel or even Mozart.
Violin works by Brahms, Bruch, Mendelssohn, Paganini, Sibelius, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Wieniawski, Vivaldi or even Vieuxtemps have most certainly stood the test of time by concert audiences and are staples of the concert repertoire.
You pick your favorite clarinet soloist and program all 10 of your clarinet pieces during the course of a year with any orchestra you choose. Ticket sales would not begin to come close to those sold by programming any 3 of the standard violin or piano "warhorses".
Sad, but just one simple fact of life which orchestral board of directors confront every day...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-04-27 00:55
I'm with GBK ... the Tchaikowski violin concerto still fills concert halls ... the Neilsen doesn't.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2004-04-27 02:12
Speaking of the Tchaik.... I just came back from a rehearsal I was in with the NWS (New World Symphony) and it is on the program, lol.
Bradley
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Author: cowboyjonus
Date: 2004-04-27 02:16
im sorry none of our concertos compare with the barber violin concerto or the tchaikowski piano concerto or for that matter the rachmaninoff piano concerto no 3
but some of our stuff is pretty good
ya i agree corigliano should be on the list
thanks
jj
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-04-27 03:28
WHERE IS FINZI?!
Also, I disagree with the Stamitz being there. But I am prejudiced against the concerto for reasons I won't go into here. (Entirely my own fault. I should have practiced it.)
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Author: bnanno
Date: 2004-04-27 09:54
GBK:
Would have to agree with you there. Although I must add that the Mozart clarinet concerto was my first real liking of Western music...
Oh went to see the Tchaikosky last month played by Znaider; the first time I heard it "live"...it is definately in a different class to the Stamitz.
Pity Mozart didn't live longer, maybe he would have added a few more features given his love for the clarinet...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-04-27 16:56
Where's the popular favorite bass clarinet concerto on your list? I'm ready to play it, if someone would just write the damn thing...........
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-04-27 17:11
[This was a response to a previous post that has since been deleted]
Post Edited (2004-04-27 21:11)
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-04-27 17:20
Oh David S., you are so right!
A concert for bass would delight.
Why isn't there one, one may ask;
It couldn't be too much of a task.
But your fee might be way out of sight!
Henry
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-27 18:05
Henry...
A concerto for bass would be keen.
It's something we've just never seen.
But who'd want to hear
The first night premiere?
Tickets? You might sell 15... GBK
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-04-27 19:09
Why is everyone bashing clarinet rep lately? Saying it's inferior to piano or violin rep?? I don't understand. Why is there such a need to rank everything.
I understand that the piano/violin reps are much larger and encompass more musical styles than the clarinet rep, but this doesn't make them better. This is like saying the clarinet is better than the french horn because it can play faster (just an example).
I know many violin and piano pieces and think there are too many great pieces to count, but why let this take away from what the clarinet rep has to offer? I would evaluate the clarinet rep by the pieces it DOES have, not what it lacks. The sax gets bashed for having a bad rep all the time also, but considering the sax hasn't been around that long, it has some pretty cool pieces written for it. Obviously clarinet, sax, and other "lesser" instruments will lose in a purely quantitative analysis of literature, but what does this mean? I think the best of the clarinet rep can qualitatively compete with ANY other pieces for any instrument (keeping each individual instruments abilities in mind of course, you can't compare the difficulty of the Nielsen or Corigliano concertos with that of the Rach 3... it's just not possible..)
Sorry if I sound like pro-clarinet zealot, but this is the second post in not very long that has made the clarinet rep sound inferior to others. I don't agree = ) - I'm not saying clarinet is the best either, but it's certainly not inferior to any!
Don Hite
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - Don't Forget the Francaix Concerto in your list, and of course, the Stanford! (just kidding)
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-27 20:17
I'm with GBK on this (surpirsed?), and in answer to the above post, I don't think he is bashing clarinet repertoire.
The comment was that any of the concertos on the list would stand up to direct scrutiny with major works from the piano and violin rep.
Spohr and Stamitz? Hmmmm, wouldn't be on my list, and while the Artie Shaw is a great piece, ???
As for all three Weber concertos, maybe for playability, but I'm not sure.
I'm not bashing another's opinion, just putting my own forward.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-04-27 21:05
Goodness! I am a proud clarinetist and am grateful for some of the wonderful pieces we have. However, to claim our repertoire is equal to violin and piano and greater than all others is silly! Is this thread a joke, just trying to bait everyone?
OK, I'll bite.
Piano:
Beethoven Concerto #5
Tchaikovsky #1
Rachmaninoff #2
Rachmaninoff #3
Brahms #2
Grieg Concerto in A
Ravel Concerto for the left hand
Rachmaninoff Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini
Gershwin Rhapsody in Blue
Prokofiev Concerto #3
This list could go on and on - Brahms 1, Schumann, Strauss Burleske, Gershwin Concerto in F, Liszt Totentanz, the 27 by Mozart, the other four by Beethoven, ect...
Violin:
Tchaikovsky
Beethoven
Brahms
Mendelssohn
Lalo Symphonie Espagnole
Saint-Saens - Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso
Vivaldi - Four Seasons (actually 4 violin concertos)
Paganini Concerto #1
Sarasate - Zigeunerweisen
Ravel - Tzigane
Of course, violin has many more concertos (including the 5 by Mozart), major works that are practically concertos (Scheherazade and Ein Heldenleben come to mind), and terrific concert pieces like Flight of the Bumblebee, Hora Staccato, and Massenet's Meditation.
Flute, Oboe and Bassoon have more rep then we do since they are also baroque instruments, though our rep since 1750 is as good or better.
And what about the horn? Two Haydn concertos, Four by Mozart, Two by Richard Strauss, the Concerto for 4 horns by Schumann, plus the Hindemith - that's 10. Good stuff, too! Certainly not inferior.
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Author: mr_goodman
Date: 2004-04-27 21:14
well... i must write a little list of concerts of my own:
bozza- concerto for clarinet
gerald finzi- concerto
weber-concertino
franz krommer- concerto in e flat major
crusell- concerto
johann stamitz- concerto
the two concerts by weber
copland- concerto
stravinky ebony concerto
mozart- concerto
karl stamitz- concertos 1, 3, 7
milhaud- concerto
gordon jacob- concerto
and so on....
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Author: Tom J.
Date: 2004-04-27 21:20
IMHO the Weber concertos pale in comparison to Spohr's, especially Spohr #2 and 4, #4 being the greatest 19th century clarinet concerto I know of. I've performed all the Weber works for years but Spohr is much more interesting musically and clarinet-wise.
I would add the Hindemith and rate it above the Copland, and then add Tomasi, maybe Rivier. Starting with Goodman's 1950 premiere in Philly the Hindemith has never received a great performance or recording as far as I know. Georg Pieterson's recording with the RCOA on Et Cetra is very good.
Pieces like the Corigliano or the Joan Tower concertos are not on my list, somehow they seem contrived.
The Finzi is very popular but I CAN'T warm up to it.
NO Stamitz concerto is on my list.
Too bad Debussy did'nt write a Deuxieme Rhapsodie.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-04-27 21:31
Ive heard many rumors and I often wondered what Tony Conigliaro did after he got beaned in the head and lost his depth perception and a very promising future in baseball. I didnt know that he changed his name and was also a composer. Im confused that his composing would have anything to do with with the red sox not winning a world series since 1918. I thought they blamed that on the Babe. I will have to purchase his concerto. I like Mozarts clarinet concerto but I hope hes not rolling over in his grave when I attempt to play it. I guess your top 10 picks are as good as any.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-04-27 22:17
GBK:
A concerto for bass would be grand!
with orchestra or a brass band....
The folks would beat down
doors all over the town
to hear bass clarinet on the stand!
well, I can dream........
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-04-28 00:00
Is this becoming the lymeric thread?? Way to go guys. Keep up the sharp wit!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-28 01:25
Through the decades there really have been,
Great concerti for the violin.
Superb works for piano.
Concert arias for soprano.
But, the list for clarinet is quite thin ...GBK
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-04-28 02:52
The clarinet list may be limited,
but yet I do feel quite inhibited.
Sometimes I say: "What the hell!
I'm sure I can play just one well!"
Then I try but my squeaks do prohibit it.
Henry
Post Edited (2004-04-28 03:02)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-28 03:34
Wait, let me go get my pen.
Should Stamitz be in the top 10?
With all of his pieces,
The quality decreases.
It's the same tune all over again. ...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-04-28 04:04
I think when you picked up your pen,
you must have forgotten the point.
There's good Stamitz, you see --
just not No. 3.
Pray, have you been smoking a joint?
Good concertos for bass are a treasure,
Erdman and Schelb give great pleasure.
And if a sonata
will fit on your list,
then toss in Schoek for good measure.
Arf, arf!
jnk
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-28 04:13
With Stamitz I have a complaint.
I'll be kind and use some restraint.
While his tunes are quite witty,
And he writes a cute ditty,
Tchaikovsky it certainly ain't..... GBK
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-04-28 04:46
How come everyone here loves to ding Karl Stamitz, my best friend. At least he doesn't change gears every two lines like Mr. WEBER in his CONCERTINO.
Personally, there hasn't been much good written since Mr. Beethoven died.
Oh yes, a little bit here and a little bit there, but it's sort of like "Thus Spake Zarathustra", 2 minutes of glory and 58 minutes of pain.
So keep Stamitz #3 in Bb on the list please. There are a couple more Stamitzs I would like to add but don't have the guts in this negative environment.
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Author: bnanno
Date: 2004-04-28 08:40
I think I am voting this the most enjoyable thread thanks to the "limericking"
Glad someone mentioned Bozza, I really like him, although many pieces were originally for the saxophone?? Is that right??
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-04-28 12:40
Yes, but remember- bassoonists have all of the great Vivaldi works!! ;-P
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-28 21:40
Ed wrote:
> Yes, but remember- bassoonists have all of the great Vivaldi
> works!!
Don't forget what Stravinsky (and others) said about the 400 Vivaldi concerti ...GBK
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-04-28 23:53
Don't forget what Stravinsky (and others) said about the 400 Vivaldi concerti
And that would be...................??
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-04-28 23:56
Attrbuted to Stravinsky (or Malipiero, Dallapiccola, Milhaud):
"Vivaldi did not write 3,000 concerti. He wrote the same concerto 3,000 times."
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-29 15:18
The concerti on this list make me sad,
It's enough to send Mozart mad,
If he was around,
Truly great they would sound,
But frankly more than half are just bad!
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-29 15:22
Ok, not more than half...but I couldn't put it any other way!!!
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-04-29 15:39
As much as I like the clarinet I do think that it does lack repertoire.
If you are fond of the classical period and 20th+ century music then you will certainly find enough pieces to play. On the other hand, one can only dream about what a beautiful concerto Brahms could have written for the clarinet. His sonatas and chamber music work certainly make me daydream about a concerto.
Sadly enough I do not know of a major romantic concerto written for the clarinet. That makes a big big hole in the repertoire. It's almost as if a whole era of classical music can not be represented by the clarinet in a symphony hall. There are of course beautiful solos in famous romantic symphonies but nothing really dedicated to the clarinet.
If there is one, then please let me know, I need to play it!
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-29 17:18
"...It's almost as if a whole era of classical music can not be represented by the clarinet in a symphony hall..."
Sylvain makes an important point.
Romantic era works, whether in the form of symphonies, overtures or concertos are the staple of the orchestral literature and in turn sell the most tickets. Few orchestras are brave enough to program a concert without a "big ticket" work from the Romantic era. Those that do are always hesitant about their ability to fill the house. More than one major orchestra has had financial trouble by feeding their audience a steady diet of 20th century works.
The clarinet, as Sylvain has pointed out, has a big gap in the Romantic era concerto repertoire, thus exacerbating the problem of the lack of clarinet performances with major orchestras. (and there are only so many times in a three year period an orchestra can program the Mozart Concerto). The other major clarinet concerti as listed above, while certainly enjoyable to listen to (and perform) are not yet in the mainstream of public consciousness. Few concert goers can readily recall the melody of the Premiere Rhapsody as rapidly as that of the Grieg A minor Piano Concerto.
Perhaps, in future decades this situation will change, but until then, the repertoire for clarinet will always take second fiddle (pun intended) to that of the violin or piano...GBK
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-29 20:13
How about this for an idea?
Give the Baermann adagio back, so that everyone once again thinks it's by Wagner...orchestrate the string 4tet parts...and bingo, a Romantic concerto!!
Just because it sounds doesn't sound it, doesn't stop an audience thinking it's romantic when it's by Wagner!!
I jest, of course.
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Author: tetiana
Date: 2004-04-29 20:40
You guys have forgotten that the Beethoven violin concerto has now been transcribed for (and is performed on) the clarinet.
tetiana
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-29 20:57
tetiana wrote:
> You guys have forgotten that the Beethoven violin concerto has
> now been transcribed for (and is performed on) the clarinet.
The reason we "forgot it" is because the transcription is forgettable.
It doesn't work ...GBK
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-29 21:50
It never will be performed again I think Tetiana, Mike Collins got shoved off stage in Beethoven's home town...think it put him off the idea!!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-04-29 21:56
I wonder how the Khachaturian Violin Concerto would sound transcribed for clarinet (it's already been done on flute)? Maybe on Eb clarinet?
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-04-30 02:57
Out of curiosity, WHY does the original poster like the Stamitz 3? It is nothing but a rather ordinary piece of early classical writing, and in my opinion the early classical composers produced some of the most forgettable music ever written. Also, the 3rd movement is beyond mediocre.
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Author: james ramey
Date: 2004-04-30 15:14
I cant understand why some many of you bash the good old STAMITZ.
Its a wonderful MANHIEM style piece that sounds good if played by a h.s. student or a top pro!
Maybe if some of you out in hyperspace would spend more time practicing then on the internet, you could attempt to play some of my concerto
choices and abandon ivory towers of criticisim for music making.
JR
james ramey
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-04-30 16:10
james ramey wrote:
> Maybe if some of you out in hyperspace would spend more time
> practicing then on the internet, you could attempt to play some
> of my concerto
> choices and abandon ivory towers of criticisim for music
> making.
Some people don't like your list. Don't bitch about it and don't assume they can't play them. I know some of these folk who are making the comments, and believe me, their opinion is just as valuable as yours (and few if any are "ivory towers of criticism").
If you're looking for a forum where everyone agrees with you, then you'll need to find a different place.
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Author: james ramey
Date: 2004-04-30 20:47
Well, at least my dog liked my list!
JR
james ramey
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-05-01 06:40
ye, i don't understand (hopefully not because i stopped readin the posts here) why at some point people just stopped composing for clarinet. for example, prokofiev's piano concertos are great, but nothing of that sort was ever written for clarinet. the modern composres who wrote for clarinet are not my favorites (hindemit, copland). maybe i just don't know it, but did intereting composers like ravel, prokofiev, debussy, etc. write stuff for clarinet (except the rafsody mentioned on the original post).
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-05-01 07:30
James,
I can play the Stamitz in my sleep. I can play most of the pieces on your list easily. (The Debussy, Nielsen and Artie Shaw I've never played. Out of those only the Nielsen sounds like it would give me any real trouble.) The last concerto that I found to be seriously difficult was the Corigliano (which I think should be on the list.)
Also, I do practice. There are a lot of hours in the day, and I only spend a short amount of time each day on this board. This board has been an invaluable aid to my playing, because, not having a teacher, I'm getting advice that I wouldn't otherwise get.
I stand by my opinion of the Stamitz 3. It is an agreeable piece, nothing more.
Post Edited (2004-05-01 07:32)
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-05-01 07:34
Just so that I don't make an enemy out of you, James, I'll say that I do agree with the Mozart, Copland, Spohr and Nielsen. Although I do prefer Spohr 2 to Spohr 1.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-05-03 18:46
I dunno about the Mozart and Stamitz being inaccessible to non-clarinetists, especially the Mozart, knowing how often it's performed live. I know a number of non-clarinetists who like the Stamitz no. 3. The Romance of that piece is really accessible.
Meri
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-05-03 21:38
By the way, the lack of romantic concerto is not restricted to the clarinet repertoire.
I think the entire woodwind and brass sections have been neglected by the romantic composers...
They must have felt it could not portray the emotional range required by their work. If only they had known
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2004-05-03 23:33
You know your instrument's repertoire is in trouble when the list of top 10 concerti ever written for that instrument includes:
- An 8 minute long piece without form and originally meant for just piano accompainment. (Debussy Rhapsody)
- A short set of theme and variations. (Weber concertino)
- A work written by Artie Shaw. lol, kidding about that.
Not to take anything away from the above works (they are wonderful compositions), but when you put them in a list of elite 'concertos' and then try to hold up that list against violins and pianos, I'm afraid you will undoubtly fall flat on your face.
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2004-05-05 17:24
"Author: Rachel (---.mega.tmns.net.au)
Date: 2004-05-01 07:34
Just so that I don't make an enemy out of you, James, I'll say that I do agree with the Mozart, Copland, Spohr and Nielsen. Although I do prefer Spohr 2 to Spohr 1."
I don't know. I agree about the Adagio of Spohr 2. But the first movement seems so much gymnastics. I think Spohr 1 has more melodic interest. I guess both have pretty good development though.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-05-06 01:56
Pappy- the first movement does look like "so much gymnastics" on paper. If it is played properly it shouldn't sound like that. There is a difference between gymnastics that are there just for the sake of virtuosity, and gymnastics that make musical sense and sound good. Spohr 2 tends towards the latter.
You didn't mention the 3rd movement of either concerto. I don't know which one I prefer, but 2 would probably be my preference for being good to listen to and fun to play. But the 1st concerto, in my opinion, is a VERY close second to the 2nd.
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Author: Tom J.
Date: 2004-05-07 00:22
Kevin writes:
"You know your instrument's repertoire is in trouble when the list of top 10 concerti ever written for that instrument includes:
- An 8 minute long piece without form and originally meant for just piano
accompainment. (Debussy Rhapsody)"
This Lilliputian statement betrays a total lack of familiarity with clarinet, or probably ANY, musical repertoire.
CONCERTOs do not an entire repertoire make !!! Given the choice of playing Rach. 3 or the Chopin Ballades most concert pianists would prefer the latter. Clarinet literature is rich with chamber and solo works that are not concertos.
"without form", BTW, was what Debussy and the Impressionists were going for. A story has it that Debussy and a friend were attending the premiere of a symphony by a German composer. Halfway into the first movement, in the development section, Debussy arose to leave. He said to his friiend "we've heard everything there is to hear". Satie's Trois Morceaux en forme de poire" (Three Pear-shaped Pieces) were so named as to satirize 19th century pre-occupation with form.
Also, Debussy himself orchestrated his Rhapsodie rather than farming it out to a lesser composer. The orchestration works so well because Debussy's piano writing is so "orchestral".
Post Edited (2004-05-07 00:23)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-05-07 02:36
Tom J. said:
> CONCERTOs do not an entire repertoire make !!!
> Given the choice of playing Rach. 3 or the Chopin
> Ballades most concert pianists would prefer the latter.
> Clarinet literature is rich with chamber and solo works
> that are not concertos.
But the fact remains that the "Big Ticket" concerti sell the most tickets. In this day of dwindling audience attendance for classical music, the clarinet concerto repertoire is considered very thin at best. Thus, few orchestral clarinet concertos (outside of K.622) are ever programed.
When was the last time you saw any major symphony orchestra program Spohr #1 or Stamitz #3? ...GBK
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Author: SomethingCopland
Date: 2004-05-07 21:16
So, like word.
If any of you know Sidney Forrest, here's something he said.
I asked him in a lesson.
"What is the greatest movement of clarinet music of all time?"
He said.
"Mozart, second movement."
I said.
"What would be next?"
He said.
"Debussy- Premiere Rhapsodie"
These are some extreme words from a master, an old master.
These two pieces are some of the truly greatest music written. Along with Corigliano, Rautavaara, Hindemith, and of course, Copland, our repertoire stacks up, oh baby, oh baby!
GMDC
Stanley, Sydney, Russ, Michelle, David, Deborah, Chuck, Jon, Ricardo, Marc, Sabine, Elsa, Laura, John, Larry, Robert, Paul---They all know Copland.
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Author: senza bs
Date: 2004-05-07 21:34
Post Edited (2004-05-28 23:35)
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Author: davor
Date: 2004-05-11 23:06
[ Deleted - Profanity is not tolerated on this board. Don't let it happen again - GBK ]
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Author: freak4mahler
Date: 2004-05-13 01:17
I agree that there are some amazing clarinet concertos but they just don't compare to the Tchaikovsky piano concerto or the Barber violin concerto.
just think if Tchaikovsky wrote a clarinet concerto or Even the master of the symphony, Gustav Mahler wrote just one concerto and it was for the clarinet.
Think of the possibilities.
But for now just be thankful to Debussy, Mozart, and Corigliano for writing great clarinet concertos.
Post Edited (2004-05-13 01:21)
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The Clarinet Pages
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