 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: woogiewoogie
Date: 2004-04-01 02:09
I have a Bonade, Rovner, Bay, and Vandoren Optimum Ligatures. I hear no difference in the sound. Is the only "difference" in the sound different ligatures produce really psychosomatic? What scientific evidence is there that the material/shape of a ligature affects the sound (The reed is vibrating where the ligature is not.)?
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Author: Burt
Date: 2004-04-01 04:47
I'll be a flak magnet by saying that most of the ligature claims are hype.
A ligature needs to press the reed securely against the mouthpiece. The pressure must be applied uniformly across the reed to minimize any side-to-side modes of vibration. It must not dig into the mouthpiece. And it must be able to be tightened securely enough so you can remove the mouthpiece from the clarinet without disturbing the reed position (necessary if you make quick switches between "A" and "Bb"); for this, liberal use of cork grease helps.
I expect that most of the ligatures on the market meet these requirements. I buy ligatures primarily based on price. I recently switched to a plastic Luyben (also a plastic cap) out of concern of nicking the mouthpiece when putting the ligature on.
OK, ligature collectors, start firing your shots at me.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-04-01 06:21
I think there is a noticeable difference in sound between a fabric ligature (like the Rovner) and a metal one. I use a Rovner a lot because it is easier to make quick changes from B to A. I also tend to select ligatures on the basis of whether I can find a cap to fit it -- which is why I virtually never use Peter Spriggs' otherwise excellent product.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-04-01 07:12
I don't collect ligatures but have tried a few over the years. I tend to feel the claims for superiority are hyped. But as to whether there are differences between them, my answer is yes, the differences are very obvious.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-01 12:46
Although I have quite a few, I don't collect them, they seem to find me. A thought: If you can't hear the difference maybe it's your ears. Nicking a reed tip just once.....a great reed it was too......made me swear-off of metal ligs. I then gravitated to single screw fabrics which I currently use despite the mp cap annoyance. I just received a Pyne woven.....who knows! Oh, must add, I have a great Harrison gold I received as a gift from a friend.
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Author: Vic
Date: 2004-04-01 14:21
I guess I do collect ligatures, but I still come very close to agreeing with Burt. However, I'm sure that I detect a difference between a metal ligature and a fabric. I can't quite remember exactly how many ligatures I own, but it's probably around 15 - 20. That being said, I tend to switch, depending on my mood (and mouthpiece), between the BG Super Revelation, and a Rovner Dark Mk III. I may have those names a bit wrong, but you know what I mean, I'm sure. But again, it somewhat depends on the mpc, which I also seem to collect. I really didn't mean to, it just sort of happened
Post Edited (2004-04-01 14:22)
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2004-04-01 15:35
I own my original Yamaha silver ligature, a fabric unit w/o metal reed contact straps, a Hite, and a Gigliotti. I've come to the conclusion that I don't really like the fabric lig as it seems to dampen the reed vibrations on the full instrument tones (middle B/C), making it very difficult to have clean entries/articulations on those notes. The Gigliotti & Hite don't leave any emotions either way. The Yamaha has a lighter sound, and allows much easier articulations than the fabric lig on the middle B/C. I've reinforced this opinion a number of times over the last few years whenever I feel like I need to give the fabric lig another try. I never stay with it because it always feels like it hamstrings me.
FWIW, I plan to look at a BG Revelation or Super Revelation for the fun of it. Maybe I'll like it. I still haven't crossed the mental $ divide that will let me try the VD lig.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-04-01 16:04
I pretty much agree with Matt's feelings about cloth ligs.
The only way I can justify a "science" comparison is through logic. The reed vibrates, correct? (hopefully you said yes). Well, cloth is a material that would dampen the vibrations moreso than metal. So in my own wierd little world of logic, it would seem that if you want the reed to vibrate to it's full capacity, you want to VERY HARD substances on either side holding it tight. Cloth isn't very hard and, while hard enough to not totally dampen the vibrations, it would seem that SOME is lost to the material. Whether it's enough to make any audible/tangible difference, that I couldn't tell you.
However although the above logic sounds right, it pretty much would 'defy' the idea of a string ligature being the best ligature around (which many people feel).
But in short, I DO feel and hear differences with different ligatures. Sometimes it's a slight difference, but sometimes it's a big one.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brad
Date: 2004-04-01 18:36
I am in the "ligatures can make a huge difference camp". I have played on Rovners (various), Vandoren Optimus, Bay, Bonade, Lurie, BG (various), Pyne Woven, and Luyben, and have heard and felt differences in them all.
In my opinion a ligature can greatly effect the overtones produced by a particular mouthpiece/reed/player combo. For example I noticed that the Rovner Mk III reduces a lot of the higher overtones off of my sound. The Bay, which I am currently using produces a more open sound with a good mix of higher and lower overtones.
While I am sure (through recording myself and the opinion of others) there is a physical difference in the sound produced with different ligatures, I also believe that is probably a pychological difference as well. If I percieve a ligature (or any piece of equipment for that matter) to be improving my playing then I will have more confidence in my playing, and will usually play better as a result.
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Author: cujo
Date: 2004-04-01 19:47
If you practice as much as a professional and/or have had ear training you would probably find some differences in ligatures.
Many good players may not notice a difference even if it is there.
The Vandoren has interchangable plates for a reason. It puts pressure at different places on the reed affecting how it vibrates.
How much you notice very small differences in sound all depends on your experience.
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2004-04-01 21:10
I too have tried many ligatures. Here are my favorites in order from best to worst.
Rovner Dark - Good dark focused sound. Good Reed vibration. This is my current favorite for my 5RV lyre with a #3 V12.
Luyben - Very similar to Rovner Dark. A little brighter than the Rovner. I used this for years with a Portnoy BP02 with a lot of success.
Rovner MKIII- Similar to the Dark but a little too muffled for me. In some cases it may work better than the Rovner Dark depending on how bright the mouthpiece is.
Vandoren Optimum - Very well designed and the plates are a good idea.
The plate with the vertical rails sounds much like the Bonade. The plate with the small dimples tends to score the reed. Also this ligature is much
heavier than the others, and for me changes the way the clarinet balances.
Bonade Inverted - (adjusted) This ligature has a great ringing sound but it is not as reed tolerant as the Rovner and Luyben. I also find stacatto to be easier with this ligature. It is somewhat fussy to setup properly, and will scratch a mouthpiece if you are not careful. It also can slip.
Steve
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-01 22:21
Alexi, I admire your attempt to use logic....and you may be right.....but, as you say, your theory goes straight against the "string lig is best" camp as exemplified by David Pino's book. Pino argues, as I recall, that the entire reed wants to vibrate and if you clamp it too severely as with metal you restrict it. I just don't know what the science is.
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Author: cujo
Date: 2004-04-01 23:17
I like the Rovner dark on my clarinet for most classical and practice. I also have a Rovner light made for an alto sax I use for more jazzy numbers.
But what I like most about Rovner is all you need is one alto sax ligature to play on anything, will fit almost all alto sax MPs, some tenor sax, and most clarinets and they are cheap.
Post Edited (2004-04-01 23:19)
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Author: woogiewoogie
Date: 2004-04-01 23:18
I commend you all for trying, but the only advice you all have given me is personal opinion - which can differ between person to person. This is where my psychosomatic theory come's into play.
My private lesson teacher (and a few of you here) has informed me that the entire reed vibrates. So, my private lesson teacher told me to cut the blunt side of the reed, making a point. I have tried this, and there is no difference. The bottom half of the reed cannot vibrate: it is clamped down (By any ligature).
Another theory:
All of those who hear a difference, you may be subconsciously changing the position of your reed/ombishure.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-04-02 01:27
I am not sure of the point of posting a question asking for others opinions and then disputing the info that was offered. I have seen studies with spectrum analyzers that indicated the presence or lack of harmonics with different types of ligatures. I can say that I have a few different ligatures and that the way the reed responds is different as well as the sound.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-04-02 01:54
Quote:
All of those who hear a difference, you may be subconsciously changing the position of your reed/ombishure. Perhaps, but I doubt it since you don't take in a different amount of mouthpiece or reed depending on the lig. Plus, even if it IS the case, it'd still be better to stick with what works. And for most in this thread it seems to be that cloth doesn't work.Quote:
My private lesson teacher (and a few of you here) has informed me that the entire reed vibrates. So, my private lesson teacher told me to cut the blunt side of the reed, making a point. I have tried this, and there is no difference I've read in past threads about other modifications. Sanding the sides down every so slightly, cutting the butt of the reed so it's shorter, clipping the reed instead of buying a harder side (thereby making the vamp shorter). Maybe one of these has an effect on vibrations as well . . . which means while we may be looking at the mouthpiece as a reason, maybe we should also look at reed type and preparation as at least PART of the problem . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: woogiewoogie
Date: 2004-04-02 02:10
Ed,
I posted a question searching for "scientific evidence" that will prove or disprove my theory. I do not care if my theory is wrong, I would just like a defenite answer. Also, I would like to see these studies.
Alexi,
"Subconsciously" meaning that you don't know it. And I said the part about the reed to direct it tword the main topic of this thread: ligatures.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-04-02 02:55
I realize what you mean by subconsciously. But I just don't think that we take in less or more reed at all (including subconsciously) depending on what ligature we have. Also, as people have said that sometimes the mouthpiece will depict what ligature they use, I meant to point out that perhaps the type of reed, or preperation taken in breaking it in could also have some effect on the ligature's performance (although I realize now I certainly didn't do a good job relating them in the above post). Perhaps a cloth ligature suits longer reeds better. Or thin reeds instead of thick reeds, or some other small variable.
[edit] Now that I think about it, it's stupid small variables like this that make any real 'scientific' testing on mouthpieces/ligatures/reeds impossible. You just CAN'T form any sort of control group.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-04-02 03:03)
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2004-04-02 11:47
Here's my thoughts on vibrations - take them for what they are worth:
The part of the reed that's really important is the vamp. I believe that you want to minimize vibrations in the rest of the reed. Yes, that goes against the grain of what most clarinetists think. Such is life. I think that - for me anyway - this is the reason I prefer the silver Yamaha lig. It clamps the reed on the table and minimizes vibrations in the unworked end. I also think this brightens the sound as the lower frequency & possibly out of phase components of the reed vibrations (not the clarinet) are damped. Think how a sound wave consists of many different frequency components. I think that by constraining the body of the reed you're allowing the desired frequency components to come through without the associated noise caused by the additive & substactive nature of the out of phase components.
Let the arrows fly!
MOO,
Matt
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-04-02 12:28
Woogiewoogie
I think the possible reason why few people attempted an answer to your scientific proof point is that equally few fail to notice the difference. If the difference is obvious, who would need the proof? It is not just sound, as many point out, but also feel and response. How likely are all these things to be "psychosomatic" in a wide sample of people who have similar experiences? I gave up the Rovner years ago for the very reasons posters have given (plus for me there were tuning aspects). I tried the Vandoren lig recently and it felt so different I could hardly play. I was shocked at how bad it was. For some people these shades of difference may count very little, but it would be far fetched to say there were no differences, and for many, those differences really count.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-04-02 13:10
Snug enough to hold the reed in place, and no more.
I like the Rovner design - and haven't scratched any of my mouthpieces.
It's also surprisingly hard to bend (or break).
I like the Velcro ligature idea - cheap and reliable.
Try experimenting with rubber O-rings - from a hardware store.
*******
Asking posters from this BBS to provide qualified, quantifiable evidence about opinions is like teaching a Bear to ride a bicycle.
******
If you can't hear it, see it, feel it or smell it, but still believe it - that's faith.
How much does faith cost in ligatures?
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2004-04-02 13:20
Ligatures do make a difference.
I can hear it and I can feel it with or without "scientific evidence".
If you can't hear or feel it, well...
You are just a lucky person.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2004-04-02 19:48
I don't know!
Synonymous Botch however likes the idea of the velcro lig. I'm using them exclusively now. Excellent. Easy to use. Colorful.
JG
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Author: Burt
Date: 2004-04-03 00:28
Scientific evidence...
The pressure area on the ligature creates a boundary condition that vibration is zero in this region if the ligature is a hard material; otherwise vibration continues past this boundary, and that's bad because the vibration is damped). What is a hard material? Apparently the string that many Germans use is hard enough. I would not use a ligature made of foam rubber.
If the pressure area is horizontal across the reed, you minimize the transverse (across the reed) modes of vibration; this is desirable. Pressing on the side edges of the reed can change the vibration pattern; this is likely undesirable, but almost no ligatures do this.
Different ligatures have the pressure area at different heights from the top of the ligature. This could contribute to a difference in sound or feel, since the effective length of the reed is different. If you raise or lower the ligature, you can increase or cancel out this difference.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-04-03 00:58
Hi,
I have stayed out of this thread but feel compeled to throw just a few more "logs on the fire."
I am not an engineer but am an experienced reseacher. The null hypothesis is "there is no significant between the ... and the ...." You can clearly see the problem here. There are so many uncontrollable or even unknown variables in this "equation" that a scientific approach to testing the hypothesis is literally impossible. Only a qualitative approach would seem to be appropriate and I don't think people are going to be satisfied with such a subjective answer since ligatures are almost like members of the family.
This question reminds me a little of the test that was done many years ago by Stereo Review on speaker cables. As I recall, even the Monster Cables made no significant .... when compared to .... You get the idea.
HRL
PS I still always end up back playing my owner-modified Gigliotti ligature with a Portnoy BP02 MP.
Post Edited (2004-04-03 01:06)
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Author: cujo
Date: 2004-04-03 02:00
Anyone seen that trumpet playing robot? Scientific evidence can be found using a robot that plays woodwinds. Will have exactly the same embroucher every time. Sensors can be placed all throughout the clarinet measuring harmonics and such. There is no subconcious affect that the $50 one must be playing better than the $5 one. But...........
Of course just because this is a real way to measure the difference does not mean it really matters. There are no good or bad ligatures. Only the one you like is the best.
If you can not notice the difference between different ligatures stay with the cheap ones unless you like the ease or comfort of more expensive models.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-03 13:16
As I recall from high school physics(whew!) sound travels through everything except a vacuum. (?) Since the vibrating reed is the "sound engine" of a clarinet won't at least some of the vibrations pass through one's lips and thence to one's bone structure including those in the ear? My point being that we hear our own sound both externally and internally. I totally agree with Hank's idea that the variables are too many to even identify much less quantify. By the way,Hank, I "hear" you have a large "family".
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-04-03 14:40
Draz,
Yes, a large family and I love them all!
HRL
PS I also have a custom made model from a friend.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-04-03 22:29
"the best ligature of them all is the right thumb" now who said that?
i love the "jump" in the sound i get from metal ligatures- currently i favour a Yamaha silver two screw, inverted with "reed contact bumps" stuck on by the guy who made "the one ring"...
i love the feeling of the whole reed and mouthpiece resonating freely- you get this with a string ligature, and with my rovner/Vandoren optimum crossover ligature (the "jurassic" ligature).
for me, the real problem is deciding what quality is the one i am after...
after years of careful listening and adjusting etc, i can vouch that the ligature definately makes a difference, and that i am getting quite sick of the whole thing- next time i'm in the US i WILL try out a floating rail lig, but if i get that, it will be the last ligature i ever buy, i swear on a stack of bibles!
get something that is halfway deccent (true- some ligatures are worth avoiding), and practise making beautiful sounds.
yay
donald
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-04-03 22:41
Bonade said "the best ligature of them all is the right thumb" The problem though is you can not play many notes that way.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-04-04 00:10
It all depends...
If you play a mouthpiece with completely FLAT TABLE there will be slight or no difference in the sound at all with different ligatures.
Most of modern mouthpieces are made with the concavity in the table (Vandoren, Gregory Smith etc.). On the CONCAVE TABLE different ligature will affect the sound.
The concavity in the table makes the difference.
More concavity = more difference.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
Post Edited (2006-02-19 00:35)
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Author: jn_pdx
Date: 2004-04-04 05:29
I think ligatures make a difference, although they make a dramatic difference on some mouthpieces and little on others (in my experience).
This would certainly make it difficult to do a scientific test.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-04 15:17
I suppose most of us use a "test tute" using the thumb ligature when affixing a reed and I've often wondered why the thumb is such a good ligature(agree with Bonade). Would heavy elastomer pads work better in an Optimum/EdDanielsRovner etc than metal?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-04-05 09:17
i use 2 ligatures but for a good reason. i like the optimum cause it actually goes into the reed and it won't slide while adjusting the mouthpiece. the thing is the optimum doesn't fit on 1 of my mouthpieces. when i close it all the way to the end it is still to big so i have to use a different ligature. in my opinion you can get a good sound from every ligature, but they are a little different. the mouhtpiece is much more important anyway.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-04-05 13:14
Scientific evidence that the shape/material of a ligature affects the sound…well, let’s see. This would require a carefully controlled (and reproducible) series of trials in which all variables except the shape or material of the ligature are kept precisely equal. We’d need an objective measure of the sound produced. Assume that the latter is achieved by an accurate spectral analysis of the acoustic output, or perhaps by a double blind panel of golden-eared listeners.
Some enterprising graduate student has decided to attempt this feat for a doctoral thesis and has designed a robotic clarinet diaphragm/embouchure, whose every formation of shape and pressure can be programmed and measured. And it includes a mechanical harness that will hold the clarinet and “finger” the notes. Both are achievable, although prohibitively expensive, with today’s technology. But she has received an unrestricted grant from the Warren Buffet clarinet foundation and has contracted with Sony to construct her Claribo
Now let’s look at a few of the variables our Dr. Clarinetenstein must control. Starting with the instrument itself (which one?) and mouthpiece (which one?), the assembly must be precise, including the alignment and “pull-out” of all sections. The temperature and humidity of the ambient air. The temperature of the instrument. The amount of mouthpiece inserted into the robotic embouchure and at what twist. The vertical angle of the instrument as inserted into the robotic embouchure. The amount of pressure on each key.
Or the reed (which one?) and ligature. How much is the reed soaked before playing, and in what is it soaked. How is the reed positioned on the mouthpiece, as measured relative to the table: horizontal, vertical and twist. How is the ligature positioned over the reed/mouthpiece: vertical displacement and twist. How much pressure is applied by the ligature via each means of adjustment (i.e., each screw, how tightly wrapped the string, etc).
On to the embouchure. The precise formation of the embouchure measured by displacement at each of at least 10 points around its “circumference”. The precise pressure by the embouchure measured at each of at least 10 points around its “circumference”. The precise position and acceleration of the “tongue” as measured by 5 points along its edge as it forms the note. If the latter is too difficult, she could just measure steady tones in which the air stream velocity is constant, assuming that Claribo won’t refuse to practice long tones.
And don’t forget the diaphragm. We need the precise pressure characteristics of the air stream used to produce the sound, as well as the temperature and humidity of said air stream.
Now she sets up the laboooratory in a castle, high on a hill during a stormy night and waits for a lighting strike to the inverter that powers Claribo.
Personally, I find that the response characteristics of even the best reed can vary more on any given day than just about any aspect of the set-up, followed by embouchure consistency and then by ambient temperature and humidity. I doubt that anyone except the most practiced professionals could begin to control enough of the variables in a clarinet set-up to make the results of a human ligature test even remotely meaningful in a scientific way. But, hey, there are folks who claim to hear significant differences between audio cables that are carrying digital signals.
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Author: Someone who knows
Date: 2004-04-05 16:17
The amount of practice that could be done during the time it takes to read all the above will make more difference than just about any ligature.
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Author: Tom J.
Date: 2004-04-05 17:31
Yes, there are definite differences in the reed's vibration that can be attributed to the ligature.
I threw out my ligature museum long ago. Now all I have are some old Bonades (inverted) and some Brancher Opera ligatures. Non-metal ligatures do not work for me. They seem to darken the sound but actually deaden some of the overtone spectrum and sound hollow.
The Opera ligature is my choice because it is the most free blowing, the least restrictive to the vibration, and produces the darkest sound with a nice ring.
My standard for an ideal ligature is the thumb (my teacher joked that he went to the morgue to buy one buy they wouldn't sell him one). Anyway,
the reason that the thumb has such a free vibration is simple, there is nothing binding it to the mouthpiece so the rubber is free to resonate.
The Opera ligature approximates that principle by minimizing the contact between the ligature and the rubber. The bands and the base of the screw are narrow and round. Flat, wide or thick bands seem to stifle the vibration.
Another factor affecting the resonance is the material. Old Selmer ligatures of thin pure silver, for example, play much more freely than a nickel plated brass or non-metal ligature. The Opera ligatures I have are solid silver and are very pliant. If you drop one it will quickly regain it's shape through usage. Pliancy is very important and is the operative factor in non-metal ligs.
All that being said, I have not bought any Opera ligatures for several years because the maker, Bois-Chaux, has changed both the metal composition thereby ruining the ligature. The newer ones are not as pliant and play like plated brass. Also, the rails on the faceplate have been changed and do not vibrate as well.
If there are other Opera ligature users out there I would like to hear from you.
Tom J.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-04-05 19:44
Phat Cat,
As a stock-holder in Berkshire Hathaway (only B shares I'm afraid) and having attended several annual meetings, I know that "she has received an unrestricted grant from the Warren Buffet clarinet foundation..." would never happen. Warren is too conservative even for clarinets! Now Dairy Queen and the Washington Post are two entirely different issues
HRL
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-04-06 13:58
Hank:
That was before Warren discovered that Louis Auguste was actually his ancestor. While reconnecting with his heritage, he developed an obsession with clarinet set-ups.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-06 14:44
Tom J: some of what you say appears to have basis....but the thumb is connected to the mouthpiece. ALL ligatures must be connected or they cease to function. A mouthpiece could be made with an embedded permanent magnet material and a separate piece of ferromagnetic material could be laid on the bark of the reed. But the "ligature" would still be connected........ by lines of magnetic force.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-04-06 15:34
Phat Cat,
That Warren is such a kidder! Always a lot of laughs and at a party, the best!
HRL
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