 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-11-03 00:49
Can anyone tell me why the G# minor scale is so difficult to play? I can play it, but I have to think about it- the other scales I just have to think "ok, I'm going to play x scale" and it comes out, but G# minor is still a conscious effort.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2003-11-03 02:40
Have you tried to think of A flat instead? I know that it sounds silly but it can just be a mental thing. For instance, I have a much easier time playing F#M than G flat major. I have no idea why but it seems to work.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-11-03 03:09
There is a definite mental block with either G# or Ab minor, Ab major also on the saxophone. There are some obvious fingering issues but no more than other scales. I have noticed difficulties in this scale with my own practice and teaching others for many years which is more pronounced that say C#/Db minor which theoretically at least should be harder.
Q: What happens when you drop a piano down a mine shaft?
A: A flat miner. (Sorry)
Post Edited (2003-11-03 03:10)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-11-03 10:15
Micaela is right.... Play Ab major scale with flattened 3rd.
Ab Bb *Cb* Db Eb F G Ab
(B natural)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-11-03 11:45
LeWhite said:
> Play Ab major scale with flattened 3rd.
> Ab Bb *Cb* Db Eb F G Ab
> (B natural)
You wrote out an ascending Ab melodic minor scale.
Don't forget that that the descending Ab melodic minor scale is different...GBK
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Author: William
Date: 2003-11-03 14:38
Learn the minor scales in this order: Natural, Harmonic and Melodic. It may help you to more easily understand and remember this particular G#/Ab minor scale.
Natural: same notes as its related major scale, up and down
Harmonic: raise the seventh note one-half step, up and down.
Melodic: raise the sixth & seventh notes one-half step ascending, and play them as normal descending.
Remember, the relative minor scales begin on the sixth note of the major scale and have the same key signiture. Ex. A min is relative to C maj and has the same key sig as C maj (no #'s or b's)
Hope this helps.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-11-03 15:37
I suspect that the real issue here (and Rachel's main problem in learning the scale) is too much thought and not enough physical repetition. Scales train our ears to analyze what they hear, but they train our fingers to operate in prerehearsed sequences with a minimum of input from the conscious mind.
I see some good intelluctual observations in this thread, but am not sure that this is a healthy approach to learning scales for keeps. I recommend the following:
First, make sure that the B major scale is in good shape. As William pointed out, the G# natural minor scale is nothing but a B scale played from G# to G#.
Second, take a physical approach to learning the new scale. My preferred method is adding one note at a time, one octave at a time. For example, "G#-A#-G#", G#-A#-B-A#-G#", "G#-A#-B-C#-B-A#-G#", etc. This also affords a great chance to get those pinkies trained from the get-go.
Third, I would avoid thinking too much in terms of enharmonics until the scale is solidly under the player's fingers. Too often, for example, a kid learning an E-flat scale will think of the A-flat as a G#. Next thing you know, they're skipping their needed G natural and inserting an unwanted A natural. There is nothing wrong, however, with learning the whole thing as A-flat minor if that helps. (I'm just thinking 5 sharps vs. 7 flats)
For me, the bottom line is that difficult scales can be learned by rote in much less time than would be wasted trying to calculate them.
Allen Cole
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-11-03 23:21
Allen Cole ... very well put, scales (unfortunately?) should be just parrot fashion technical thingys - then, in theory, you come across a passage in a piece your playing and your fingers "just do it".
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-11-04 00:35
I think it is probably a mental thing, because if I come across the scale in a piece it comes out easily. I have never, ever had any trouble with any scale-y passages in my pieces.
I am also well aware of how to play the different minor scales, I learnt that years ago ( the AMEB exams do tend to drum things into your head like that) and I especially know how to play the melodic minor because I use the Klose scales and they use the melodic form.
Getting off-topic a bit, I've heard a lot of people mention the Baermann exercises. What are some differences between that and Klose?
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-11-06 01:11
" Because you haven't played it enough"- if I'd wanted advice like THAT, I would have asked my little brother. What I wanted to know is if the scale had any technical or mental things that could make it difficult to play.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-11-06 11:06
A guess, Rachel, is that for each of us there's a scale that our brains don't wrap around very well.
For a long time I could play the F# major scale far better than the A major scale - I kept on popping in the D# when it should have been a D natural. Then later on it would be the harmonic scales. I worked exclusively on the minor scales for awhile and found them easier.
So I guess you just have to spend extra time with the one that distresses you more and play it slowly until it comes under your fingers naturally before picking up the speed. Then another scale will become strange to you again. It really does help to think of turning the name around, like the F#/Gb scale and the same for its relative minor.
I was going to use a vivid illustration but it would provide fodder for our poets out there. Too early in the morning to start something.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2003-11-06 12:59
Post Edited (2006-12-09 17:10)
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-11-06 14:19
G# min is the first to use a double sharp. Maybe that's the mental problem.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-11-06 15:31
"" Because you haven't played it enough"- if I'd wanted advice like THAT, I would have asked my little brother."
And he would (also) have been correct. The bottom line in learning anything on the clarinet is always the same, PRACTICE, usually preceeded by some very careful analysis. Thee is nothing particularily strange about this G# (Ab) minor scale that a lot of repetition will not solve--you just have to "do it". Make certain you know all of the fingerings, start slowly--in whole notes if necessary--and gradually, as your learning process creats understanding and confidence, increase your tempi. This will not occure "over night"--you have to stick with it. But eventually, you will be asking yourself (hopefully), "What was the big deal with this simple scale". Many years ago, I successfully learned all the scales and arpeggios, but I still practice some of them every day in order that my brain does not forget. So additionally, once you have learned this scale (and all the others), your "job" is not complete. You must constantly review, or your brain will forget. Playing music is a life long exercise of cumulative learning. Once you have learned and mastered something, you will always need to review what you've learned so that you don't forget it.
So. try to follow all of the above advice and get this pesky scale into your mind and under your fingers. And then, constantly keep reviewing what you've learned--via a lifetime of regular practice--to avoid "losing it". Let "experiance" be your best teacher--the answer, "you just haven't done it enough" IS the answer, always.
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Author: JamesE
Date: 2003-11-06 18:27
William, and others, excellent advice above.
I started playing late, in college rather than grade or high school (a very small college). There was no emphasis on scales and the like, and I didn’t even think about a private teacher.
Now as a returnee, I am paying the price in that scales and scale studies are very hard for me and slow to get correct. I find two difficulties, as you add more sharps and flats, you add more of those little silver keys that you never used before. This legacy has also left me in a great deal of difficulty reading notes like E#, B# and Gb.
I like Williams advise, analyze, start slow and practice, practice, practice.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-11-06 18:35
Perhaps at this point it would be good to mention the value of listening to the scale as it's played. The intervals between each note is the same for all major scales, then they're the same for all melodic minor scales and so on. A comparison would be to sing a song, then start the same song a note higher, then start another note higher. You're using different key signatures each time but the intervals are all the same. That's why you can identify the song but it doesn't make a bit of difference to your ear what key it's played in.
So you can also depend on your ear to tell you if the scale sounds right. This will pull you away from the scale books and help you memorize the scales better. Start on an F for example, then close your eyes and listen to the scale as you play it. There's a point at which you're not conciously thinking of each note as it's played, but you're listening. The fingers will follow your ear.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-11-06 18:50
Rachel: Have you considered, perhaps the anonymous "Someone who knows" IS your little brother?
Also I offer my congratulations on your ability to play every known scale save one with great facility. Many players would be thrilled to have such talent.
Whebn playing scales, do you think of note names, intervals, finger positions, or do you just play it? There are advantages to each, but the more automatic play is almost always best. And that you will achieve through repetition.
Regards,
John
definitely not your little brother
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2003-11-07 19:05
Whoa Why dump on Rachel? She said quite specifically that all scales came
easily but one and asked why that one in particular is tough. Those who say she needs to practice more are not answering her question and she is right to be pissed, (I can think of no more appropriate word), at those criticizing her for not working hard. After all, she's mastered all the others.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2003-11-07 19:31
Post Edited (2006-12-09 17:10)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-11-08 00:36
Are you sure that you are using the most appropriate fingerings for the scale? Once you get into this many sharps, you probably need to be fluent and comfortable with alternate fingerings for every note.
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Author: KENOLD
Date: 2003-11-08 00:51
"What I wanted to know is if the scale had any technical or mental things that could make it difficult to play."
IMO the primary mental or technical thing that make some scales more difficult to learn than others is the number of places where you have to move more than one finger at a time.
The C major scale is easiest because, other than across the break, you have to move only one finger at a time.
Figure out which parts of the G#m scale tend to trip you up. I bet it involves moving more than one finger. Do some extra work on these spots.
Ken
Learn to perform even the things you don't like, as if you love to do them.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-11-08 08:22
"Someone who knows"
For God's sake, be reasonable!! Anyone would think your mission in life was to criticise me! I am looking for advice, and I do agree with some of it- and I have the right to disagree with people too, ok?
I believe I have told you before that I DO PRACTICE MY SCALES. IT IS JUST THAT ONE THAT HAS BEEN GIVING ME TROUBLE FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS.
I resent being told that I don't practice enough when I do dedicate a lot of time and effort to improving my playing. You are not my teacher, you are not my parents, you are not one of my friends, you don't even know me, let alone know how I play the clarinet, so I don't know how you can tell me that I haven't done enough practice.
About the mental thing... I think it could be the double sharp that is messing me up- I have never heard a note and thought "Hey, that's A double sharp!".
I do know how a scale should sound, and haven't used my scale book for a while- if I didn't have an excellent ear I would find music a LOT more difficult.
I've been practicing the Klose scales a whole lot lately and the scale is getting easier, but the double sharp does confuse me a bit. The advice about thinking of it as Ab was EXTREMELY helpful, but I find that half of it makes more sense as G# and the other half makes more sense as Ab. ("Someone who knows"- see, now I am AGREEING with people. Are we happy now?)
Thank you all for your advice. Bennett, thank you for sticking up for me.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-11-08 08:25
In reply to how I play my scales- whether I think about it or just play it- I just play it. Half the time if you ask me "what where the last 3 notes you played" I would have to think, because scales have just become so automatic. It's actually when I start thinking too much about it that I run into difficulties.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-11-08 09:39
"Someone who knows"- I don't want to get into another stupid argument with you, so I am going to sit down and try to calmly explain how I feel about your posts.
It seems to me that you are getting your nose out of joint because I happen to disagree with your opinions. I feel it was extremely unfair to say that I don't want advice, most of the advice which I disagree with I have tried before and found that it doesn't work. If you ever say something that I do agree with, I will tell you. Not everyone has to be a carbon copy of yourself.
Even if you do disagree with some of my posts, there is no need to be so nasty about it. I have no idea if this is actually the case, but it seems that every time you post to my threads you are deliberately trying to belittle me. I do not appreciate this, I am a very good musician (not perfect yet, but working on it); and I work hard on improving myself as a musician.
I also do not appreciate being spoken to as though I am stupid. I am not; tests and remarks of teachers have shown that my intelligence is far above average.
I apologise if the "I would have asked my little brother comment" offended you, but I am already aware of the value of practice. I think you need to accept that some things may be more difficult than others- that is the reason why beginners don't just pick up the clarinet and play something like the Corigliano concerto.
I hope we can get along a lot better in the future than we have been.
From Rachel
Post Edited (2003-11-08 09:39)
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Author: fred-jazz
Date: 2003-11-08 13:50
Hey Rachel,
I do think scales are an extremely important part of practice and your question is a good one that can be approached and possibly solved with knowledge and practice. Of course some of the obvious solutions ( practice more ) leave out the why this scale is harder and the how we make it easier.
First, make sure you are applying proper fingering principles as much as possible in the scale. Every piece you play should be analyzed so that you are only picking up or putting down fingers, not both, whenever possible. G# minor is a problem with the little fingers across the break, you have to use right hand B so you can use left hand C because you must use right hand D#. If you are sliding fingers this is not a good idea.
Personally, I like harmonic minors, they mean much more to me in the jazz world but of course you should learn them all at some point. You should also learn to sing all the scales you are using, so your mind gets the relationships between notes auraly and not just by note name, after all music is about sound and the note names are just conventions added later to make it easier to communicate musical ideas on paper.
Finally, spend some time practicing a song you like in G# minor, any minor song will do but hopefully one you know well in another key and transpose it into G# minor. This is to get your emboucher to correctly tune the out of tune notes in this scale. ( Remember, pianos are even tempered, but wind instrument players usually automaticly tune by ear to just or true tempermaent, and because of this you probably play your G# a little high making the rest of the scale sound a litttle off to your ear. It is hard to learn a scale that sounds wrong to your ear)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-11-08 15:06
Rachel wrote:
> I believe I have told you before that I DO PRACTICE MY SCALES.
> IT IS JUST THAT ONE THAT HAS BEEN GIVING ME TROUBLE FOR THE
> PAST FEW YEARS.
Then there's something wrong with the way you're practising.
> I resent being told that I don't practice enough when I do
> dedicate a lot of time and effort to improving my playing. You
> are not my teacher, you are not my parents, you are not one of
> my friends, you don't even know me, let alone know how I play
> the clarinet, so I don't know how you can tell me that I
> haven't done enough practice.
Sure we can. You asked for advice, and when it comes to scales, good practice is it.
This is not a "stick up for" or "against me" discussion. You diod ask for advice without offering any backup information on how/what/why you practice, and then get disgusted when people point out that scales are generall just a "practice" thing. There's no real secrets to scales.
If you've spent a few years and don't "get it", then at this point you have some unlearning to do, since your mind has now "set" with something wrong. Do you have a teacher? Discuss it with them. Nothing this basic should have gone on for so long.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-11-08 22:09
Mark Pinner wrote: "I have noticed difficulties in this scale with my own practice and teaching others for many years which is more pronounced that say C#/Db minor which theoretically at least should be harder"
Actually there's no such thing as Db minor, so it probably is harder! ;-)
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-11-09 22:32
Mark Charette,
I am aware of the value of practice. But do you not think, that if one has been practicing something for years, and still has trouble with it, then there may be something wrong with the way one is practicing it? I said in my original post that it is the only scale that gives me trouble. So it would seem obvious that it is a matter of practicing better, rather than practicing more. Practiciing something for hours and hours a day incorrectly is not beneficial.
I think that many people would get annoyed if they were curtly told to "practice more", when they had been practicing.
Most of "Someone who knows"'s advice is good advice. It is the type of advice that I give my own students. I never reject advice out of hand; if I do reject a piece of advice it is because I am already doing it, or because I have tried it and it didn't work. The reason I got so annoyed is because some people here do not seem to realise that what works for one person may not necessarily work for another.
I asked about the scale because I did not think the trouble was just a matter of getting it under my fingers. Fingerwork almost never gives me trouble. The people who suggested a mental block were absolutely right, and it is their advice who has been the most helpful.
Also, if someone jumped down your throat just for disagreeing with their advice, wouldn't you be grateful if someone else defended you?
All the people telling me to get an aural conception of the scales- excellent advice, but I am already doing this. This thread has been very helpful, and the scale has made more progress in a week than it did in 3 years.
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