 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Simon
Date: 2003-09-25 00:36
I know this has been discussed many times, however, I thought I pass on my experince.
Last night "finally" I turned my clarinet thumb rest upside down and I must say that it did make a difgerrence. I felt the rght fingers much more relaxed and to some degree experienced a slight increase in speed and more accuracy.
I also noticed that the fingers seemed to flow more "naturally" . I will keep practacing and see if I gain further benefits. However in short I think it works. If I am satisfyied I may get a tech to install a proper adjustable thumb rest.
Has anyone had a similar experience.
Reagrds
Simon
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-09-25 01:40
Why get an adjustable thumb rest when you can just get a standard one put in the best place for you. Most people with adjustable ones finish up with them at the extreme of the adjustment anyway.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-09-25 03:51
Gordon, this is a rare disagreement between us. I support the idea of an adjustable thumb rest because if I put a new one where it should be for me and then sell the Clarinet, the buyer may move the thumb rest and sell it again, and the back of that lower joint may eventually look like a piece of Swiss cheese.
Agreed, most adjustable rests I've seen (no doubt fewer than you) are set at one end. This makes me wonder if they are really put in place correctly. When the adjustable thumb rest is installed, the rest should be in mid-position for the player's best starting point.
MOO.
And Simon, if it works better arbitrarily upside-down, just think how it even might be wonderful if it's in the optimum location, whether it's fixed or adjustable.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-09-25 10:29
"When the adjustable thumb rest is installed, the rest should be in mid-position for the player's best starting point."
In most cases I think this would put the mounting screws so close to the tenon receiver that there would be significantly increased risk of a split beginning here.
Another case I have against adjustable ones is that they are more bulky, providing greater leverage for wrenching the mounting screws out. Fine until you get an accidental knock in the wrong place.
When I remount thumb rests I fill the old holes to a shallow depth ( in case they are needed again, such that their presence is almost undetectable - a far cry form a Swiss cheese.
However I am happy to differ from you here, and do see some merit in a TOP DESIGN of adjustable thumb rest in some circumstances. Some are downright flimsy, with easily stripped threads for locking, and insecure fitting, etc.
Post Edited (2003-09-25 10:35)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-09-25 11:22
My Buffet adjustable thumbrest completely snapped on me one day out of the blue. The actual piece, that the thumb makes contact with, snapped at the area where the screw goes, perfectly in half. Talk about flimsy!
On my new LeBlanc, I have the thumbrest as high as it will go, and I find that it is placed a little higher than on Buffet instruments. More comfortable and more support, at the end of the day.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-09-25 12:12
My experience: I jumped on the adj.t.r. bandwagon last year(Buffet models) and bottom line: it was a waste of time and money. Even at the highest position it's not as high as simply reversing the original. The Buffet does have the advantage of having a hole into which a neck support could be attached....but tightening is "iffy" and one is never confident it won't loosen during playing. Plus, it is bulky and causes a fitting problem in some clarinet cases. Plus, the holes didn't match the original holes so one had to be plugged and a new one drilled. Conclusion.....the Buffet T.R.s are no real solution to the problem.....and they're overpriced. Aside: I do note that when you reverse some thumb rests the angle of the thumb portion has a more natural slant than when installed as originally placed!
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-09-25 12:14
Locally, it will cost a bench minimum charge to move a thumbrest.
The old position holes are generally covered with colored wax (in case you change your mind).
******
As a long-term Ton Kooiman user, I'm surprised about the discussion of 'splintering', 'damage' or 'leverage'. The metal version requires some additonal mounting screws, all at the same 'height' as standard thumbrest screws or lower toward the bell.
There's plenty-'o meat at that cross section.
The plastic version of the TK uses the standard thumbrest screw holes to affix the mounting plate.
I have both versions, and go the extra step of adding some epoxy to help distribute the contact of the plate to the clarinet body.
*****
The current adjustable mechanism from Buffet is made of a soft metal that cannot be heated for brazing or soldering. This lightweight material is often replaced by our local techs as a matter of course.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-09-25 15:14
I will report this again as it seems relavent to this post, Stanley Hasty--legendary Eastman School of Music clarinet instructor--recommends glueing the thubrest in its new position rather than drilling new and filling in old holes. He said, in a university masterclass (Russ Dagon was in attendance), that if you don't like the new position after a while, "just knock it off and move it again". His TRs were repositioned higher and a bit off to the right--and held in place with Elmers glue. And he said, they have never come loose "accidentally".
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-09-25 15:56
I can't imagine that Elmer's glue will hold that well, since it is made to work on porous materials, not metal.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-09-25 17:15
Ed: Try real hard.
Gordon: Good comments. Perhaps I'm too dang picky (maybe you've noticed before?).
My #1 Clarinet is an Amati 602 which came with a stock adjustable thumbrest. It appears to be a sturdy design, not easily whomped apart. It has about 12mm total longitudinal travel [make that *latitudinal* travel. I really hadn't been drinking....]. For me, it's positioned slightly more than halfway up (just in case anyone cares). Curiously, it is not padded with cork, but rather with some synthetic rubbery stuff which is quite comfortable.
Regards,
Joh
Post Edited (2003-09-26 03:30)
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Author: Meri
Date: 2003-09-25 19:57
For me, the adjustable thumb rest was totally worth the money (about 2 1/2 years ago), my now-former teacher suggested that I try it, because nothing he was doing to try to help me improve my right-hand position was helping. (he was trying to get me to curve my fingers and move them from the lowest knuckle) I do not have mine at the highest position, however, so inverting it may not have helped me anyway. Mine was placed so that the highest position is in line with the top of the low Bb hole. I did not even like the Kooiman thumb rests, and went with a standard one that goes up and down.
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2003-09-25 20:26
I've had the thumb rest raised on my Leblanc - what a diifference !
I tried turning it upside down myself which was better than it's original position but it was uncomfortable - it dug into my thumb.
I took it to a repairer and asked him to fit an adjustable one - like the one I have on my Buffet but he talked my into letting him try raising it first - it only took a few minutes and is great - don't even use the neck strap I needed before !
As far as the cost was concerned it's bit difficult to say as he did a few other twiddly bits too - maybe around a fiver I guess - money well spent in my view !
Good luck !
Sue
:)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-09-26 00:09
If one could find a craftsperson who could make one, a thumbrest made from a strip of nickel silver bent in an L shape with two countersunk holes, could be very good. It can be made so that the thumb can be higher on the instrument. It may also help to think of rotating the right hand a little CCW to make it more comfortable while playing. Good luck!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-09-26 12:09
William mentioned gluing a thumb rest on.
To me that is utterly crazy.
It is likely that there is oil impregnated in the surface of the timber, and also a strong likelihood, for modern models at least, that there is a coating of black filler or paint of some sort, not to mention a wax finish.
No matter how strong the glue may be, the limiting factor is probably how strongly the oil or other coating adheres to the surface. No glue works well on an oily surface or surface coated with a relatively soft material.
Therefore there is a good chance that the glue will suddenly fail and the clarinet will drop to the floor.
If it is possible to just "knock it off" without taking some timber with it, then the glue is highly suspect!
In my book a technician would be foolish to flirt with these possibilities. I cannot imagine any technician of worth doing this. I note that the guy who promoted it was not a technician.
Post Edited (2003-09-26 13:39)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-09-26 12:27
I too am very dubious that Elmer's glue would provide a reliable fastening method.....same for "duck" tape. Please note that I said "reliable". Further, any glue type method that would be reliable would probably take wood with it if one knocked-off the t.r.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-09-26 14:47
To Gordon (NZ) and others, using glue to secure the TR is not my idea. I only relate the story because it was told--and apparently practiced with success--by the legendary (retired) Eastman clarinet teacher Stanley Hasty. And I thought that it would be, at the very least, interesting to this posting. Actually, no one that I know uses glue (nor do I). All of my clarinets have adjustable TRs made by Selmer or Charles Bay--and I don't know how I keep playing all those years before I got them. The freedom provided to the RH little finger by moving the TR upward (and perfhaps slightly off center) is--as the commercials say--"Priceless". Well worth the few bucks it may cost.
Wy do they all put them so low in the first place??
The most common complaint heard over the years from beginning band students comes from the clarinets--"My thumb hurts". Maybe it's about time for factory installed eyelets and neckstraps like the sax faimly has.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2003-09-26 15:14
William:
You talk about installing th TR off center. Which way? I've been wondering what effect that would have. Can you give me some perspective with your experiences.
Thanks,
Matt
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2003-09-26 20:40
I'm wondering how you know how high to raise the thumbrest. What is the optimum position for the right hand?
Leonard
Post Edited (2003-09-26 20:41)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-09-26 22:34
They say, when the thumb and first finger oppose each other ....with the index finger in place, of course.
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-09-27 04:13
i am very suprised to read that Mr Hasty (a player and teacher for whom i have only the highest regard) recomended glueing on the thumb rest! i don't doubt that he may have given this advice, but i have to agree with Gordon on this one- i don't think this is a good idea.
by the way- Gordon has adjusted the thumb rest placement on two of my B flat clarinets over the years (and once disguised chips etc caused by a "home handyman/teacher" trying to do it himself). Both times the object was to get the distance between the Thumb rest and E/B key the same on both Bflat and A clarinets. This makes changing back and forwards between the two easier (esp in situations where the passages are technically demanding).
donald..
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Author: denner22
Date: 2003-09-27 11:24
I like having my thumb and index finger opposite as well. I find it frees up the right hand little finger and makes my thunb much more comfortable. Have tried the Kooiman, but prefer to use a neckstrap, leaving my right hand more comfortable again....
David
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-09-27 14:55
"When I remount thumb rests I fill the old holes to a shallow depth ( in case they are needed again, such that their presence is almost undetectable - a far cry form a Swiss cheese."
I really feel that I have to defend Swiss cheese here. It's only Emmenthal that has the holes in it!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-27 15:16
Back to Simon's original post, I'm glad more players are discovering the benefitS to be gained from this simple accommodation of clar to person. It may have sparked some maker/supplier attention as well. As to height location, I'd suggest the thumb position at or [only] slightly below the first finger [pinch] level. As to horizontal position, I'd suggest this be chosen by consideration of hand size, and it does [for me] depend on inst. size as on bass cl. If I owned my borrowed bari sax, I'd sure have its TR shifted to give my small hand greater comfort and improve my playing!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-01 19:22
Since I started playing my Leblanc LL about a year ago, the finger I've had most trouble with has been the RH pinkie. To reliably hit the RH E/B key required a real contortion. This thread gave me the incentive to simply invert the thumb rest, as suggested by Simon and others, and, voila, the problem has largely disappeared. A fully adjustable thumb rest might even be better but, with some more practice, that will probably be unnecessary. (I do have the thumb rest covered by a rubber adaptor as a cushion.)
Post Edited (2003-10-01 19:25)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-10-02 05:07
With the adjustable rest, everything seems to work optimally with my thumb just down from R1. Raising it to the Ri latitude would make it almost impossible for R4 to work. Hey, isn't that how everyone's the same? Unique?
Regards,
John
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Author: Burt
Date: 2003-10-03 23:45
Don't forget to modify the case to remove the stress on the thumbrest in the new position. I did this using a hammer and a 1/4" rod, and it worked.
I moved the thumbrest on my Bb by 3/8". I had an R-13 adjustable put on my "A", thinking I may sell it.
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