 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-08-24 12:37
hi, me and another person had a discussion about this and i'd like to hear as many opinions as possible. what do you think are the differences between the buffet R-13 and the buffet prestige R-13?
after trying over 10 calrinets of each model, i am sure the prestige has a better sound than the R-13. someone said they are similar, and the only difference is the Ab/Eb key on both sides. i disagree. any opinions will be appreciated.
thank you.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-24 13:49
clarnibass wrote:
> after trying over 10 calrinets of each model, i am sure the
> prestige has a better sound than the R-13. someone said they
> are similar, and the only difference is the Ab/Eb key on both
> sides. i disagree. any opinions will be appreciated.
I won't disagree with you; I'm sure that you did find the Prestiges better than the R13s.
But other people might find the opposite.
And, in the short and long run, it doesn't matter - it doesn't matter if there are real differences, or if they're just minor mechanical differences, or if they're just marketing differences.
The rest of this isn't directed at you, claribass - the "you" is generic.
1) If someone cares about what you're playing more than how you're playing - do you really care about their opinion? (Interest in an unusual setup is normal, but discount "oohs" and "aahs" because you're playing an X and it must be good because it's expensive. It means that they don't know much about clarinet playing.)
2) What you believe (even if influenced by marketing) is a powerful motive to buy. If you believe it is better, then no amount of argument is going to change your mind. And ... you'll probably be better - because you believe. Just don't go around telling everyone it's better than "X" - because those other people have their belief, too!
3) Some of us will tell you that material doesn't matter (to a point - there's some rules that have to be followed). You don't have to believe us. See 2).
4) There is no best clarinet. Never has been. Probably never will be. At this point in the evolution of the instrument all the changes that are made are very small incremental changes. The tuning might get slightly better, but then someone will complain that it isn't like they remember it to be and the improvement makes something else worse. Or the tone might have some overtones sliced out to make it "darker" but then someone will complain that it doesn't penetrate as well.
If you have the money and what you find you like falls into the higher end - buy it. But don't say that you liked it because it was more expensive. Say you liked it for what it is.
If you don't have the money - keep trying the lower priced ones. Someday you'll find the one and you'll be happy. You might even be lucky and find it on first try.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-08-24 14:27
i agree with you. i actually didn't know the prestige was more expensive than the R-13 when i tried it. after i played them both and it sounded much better i asked what the price was and decided it was worth it. thank you for all this information. i would still like to know what are the differences between these 2 models.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-24 14:37
clarnibass wrote:
> i
> would still like to know what are the differences between these
> 2 models
Essentially - nothing. The wood on R13s can look just like the wood on the Prestige, and the extra key is an option on an R13.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-08-24 15:30
so how come all the R-13 calrinets i tried had the same type of sound, and all the prestige clarinets i tried had a different and better type of sound?
trust me, i'm the last person to go after advertisment.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-08-24 15:33
"...a different and better type of sound..." ???????????? ...GBK ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-24 15:40
clarnibass wrote:
> so how come all the R-13 calrinets i tried had the same type of
> sound, and all the prestige clarinets i tried had a different
> and better type of sound?
Chance. Just because you toss a coin 10 times and heads comes up each time doesn't change the probability that there's still a 1/2 chance of heads comng up again on the next toss.
> trust me, i'm the last person to go after advertisment.
Actually, advertising works. You might not think so (all of us think it only works on the other person!) but it does. Remember - they're called R13 Prestige instruments. They're R13s, first and foremost.
If we blindfolded you and you had tested the Prestiges against R13s with the added key then perhaps we could determine if there really was a actual instead of perceived difference, but we didn't ...
But it doesn't really matter, does it?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-08-24 15:44
Mark....a better synopsis has never been written. Clari: I have a coplayer friend who owns both. He values the sound and playability of the Prestige more than the R13. I don't have an opinion on the comparison.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-08-24 16:10
Actually, the Buffet marketing department was fairly clever.
It's called a "Prestige" because that is the marketing image Buffet wants to convey. Putting aside the cosmetic differences, if it makes you feel better owning a Prestige, so be it. The facts are that a good R-13 is the equal of a good Prestige.
I've played numerous R-13's and Prestiges. Some of each played well, some of each played poorly.
What troubles me more (while not necessarily starting a new thread) is the most recent batches of R-13 and Prestiges have been less than stellar.
Mark's analysis was well thought out and excellent advice. It is hardly necessary to add anything else...GBK
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-08-24 18:34
Is the R-13 and the Prestige R-13 essentially the same instrument? I don't think so. The major deference is the wood. Actually the part of the wood used to make each instrument.
Francois Kloc wrote:
*************For R13 and RC model we are using the side of the center of the tree which is less dense than the center, it will make the wood respond quicker and so far it is what most of the player like. The Prestige line come with the wood we take from the center of the tree which is denser and will have to have little bit more air pressure to respond than the less dense wood. The rest is a taste of the player and for that everyone is different and it is what makes this world so attractive to me.*************
I believe material does matter and care less for those who don't.
Vytas Krass
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-24 19:15
Vytas wrote:
> Is the R-13 and the Prestige R-13 essentially the same
> instrument? I don't think so.
Well, lessee ...
Bore the same? Check.
Tone hole size the same? Check.
Tone hole spacing and position the same? Check.
Overall length the same? Check.
Keywork the same? Check.
Wood the same? Sometimes.
Essentially the same? Check.
> The major deference is the wood.
Sometimes. Some R13s are made from heartwood, all Prestiges are. It may make a difference somehow.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-08-25 05:46
Post Edited (2003-08-25 16:21)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-08-25 09:40
Clarinibass - You are confirmation that the people at Buffet have hired the right people in their marketing department.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-08-25 13:46
A real challenge when playing Vivaldi's "Seasons".
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-08-25 16:32
lewhite, how many prestige and R-13 did you try?
it seems you completely didn't understand what happened when i chose my clarinet. i tried a lot of them, not even knowing which ones the the prestige and which ones are R-13, "by chance", all the prestige sounded better to me (i didn't use the extra key so that didn't make a difference). before trying them, i didn't ask them what is different or what the price was. also i just heard that they have the prestige model a few days before. if i wouldn't know, i might not even try the prestige model. i knew very little about brands and models then. in my country, we have no marketing for any model or brand, since so few pepole actually buy new buffet clarinets. in the usa or places where clarinets have a big market it might be worth to do it, but certainly not here.
you can think what you want, but i know what i know. i would like to end this argument, since you don't seem to care about my opinion which is based on experience.
i hope your concerto is great, and you become a great clarinetist.
good night.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-08-25 19:56
Is it possible that Prestiges receive more hand-finishing than ordinary R-13's?
Or are finished by more experienced craftsman?
Just asking. Not trying to start an argument with anyone!
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-25 20:17
David Peacham wrote:
> Is it possible that Prestiges receive more hand-finishing than
> ordinary R-13's?
Nope.
> Or are finished by more experienced craftsman?
Nope.
I've asked.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-08-25 22:41
Who did you ask?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-26 00:18
Liquorice wrote:
> Who did you ask?
Head of Buffet N.A.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-08-26 00:44
"i tried a lot of them, not even knowing which ones the the prestige and which ones are R-13, "by chance", all the prestige sounded better to me"
But you didn't know which were which when you were trying them, so how did you know Prestige were better?
Post Edited (2003-08-26 03:06)
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-08-26 01:37
Aue you sure you're not working for LeBlanc or something. I think Marks 1st post sums this up best.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-08-26 03:04
I am such a clarinerd!! I find this discussion very exciting!!
To me the prestige is maybe duller and more resistant than the R13. Why all the fuss? It seems that all the great clarinetists of the past managed quite well without a prestige, but of course everybody knows Marcellus would have sounded even better if only he had a prestige. I guess we're only left to ponder what his true potential would have been had he had the opportunity to play on wood cut from the center of the tree!!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-08-26 06:36
ok 3 things left to say.
first, lewhite, you still havn't said how many R-13 clarinets and how many prestige clarinets you tried. why don't you simply answer this question?
second, "But you didn't know which were which when you were trying them, so how did you know Prestige were better?"
i think it's pretty abvious, but if you need further explaination i don't mind giving it. after trying them i did 2 things. i sperated them according to intonation and mechanics, in that case there was no difference between the 2 models. then i sorted the clarinets in order of which I liked most (sound being pretty much the only factor). after looking i saw all the pretisges were better than the R-13s. maybe it's chance, maybe it's not, i don't care anymore since i just chose the best clarinet they had.
third and most important. the only difference between these 2 models is the wood and the metal tenon rings which i think are important (but not for another 1,000$). sometimes even the wood of the R-13 is the same as the prestige. does this make a different? i think so. but it's a very small difference.
i think it's a matter of taste after all. some people will think a cetrain R-13 is better, some would rather a prestige over that same R-13. some would rather a leblanc or even a selmer.
my final conclusion is that these 2 models are a little different but not enough to rule out the R-13 and try only the prestige when buying a clarinet.
thanks to all that helped.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-08-26 06:49
You sure change your tune a lot.
I've played on R13s for about 5 years now, and recently when I was looking for new clarinets I tried R13s, RC, and in both types, the Festival and Prestige versions. I think I tried about 20 - 30 all up...
"third and most important. the only difference between these 2 models is the wood and the metal tenon rings which i think are important
(but not for another 1,000$). sometimes even the wood of the R-13 is the same as the prestige. does this make a different? i think so. but it's a very small difference.
i think it's a matter of taste after all. some people will think a cetrain R-13 is better, some would rather a prestige over that same R-13. some would rather a leblanc or even a selmer. "
But, yesterday you told me the Presitge is BETTER?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-08-26 07:21
yes i did. from all the R-13 and prestige clarinets i have tried, the pretiges were better. after hearing everything people said here (especially mark, GBK and vytas), i came to the conclusion that it was chance that all pretige clarinets i tried were better than the R-13. just because you are stuck on your opinion and won't change even if you found you are wrong, doesn't mean other people won't too. i understand now that some R-13 calrinets might be better than the prestige and vise versa, but i still think there's a small difference between these 2 models. different doesn't mean better.
i think i was right that the prestige sound a little different than the R-13 (i probably won't change my mind about this until i try a few more and see for myself), but i was wrong thinking the prestige model is simply better than the R-13, i'll admit that.
i think we should end this dicussion here.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-08-26 08:46
"but i was wrong thinking the prestige model is simply better than the R-13, i'll admit that."
Haha, that's all I wanted to hear, congrats on admitting that!
Now you understand this, congrats on choosing the best instrument for yourself. For you, this truly IS the 'best clarinet'. Keep in mind that everyone has a 'best clarinet'.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-08-26 10:57
"Keep in mind that everyone has a 'best clarinet'."
I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that coming from you
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