 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ericzang
Date: 2003-05-23 02:16
I have an albert system clarinet. When I finger T123, it sounds a B, not Bb or C. Is this a B clarinet? I can make it sound at Bb if I pull out the bore almost to the edge of the connection.
Thanks for any help,
Eric
Post Edited (2003-05-23 02:18)
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Author: Corey
Date: 2003-05-23 02:29
Sounds like it is a very sharp Concert Bb. Normally when fingering T123(low C), you produce a Bb concert pitch. I know nothing on Albert system clarinets so you might possibly have a clarinet in "B".
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-05-23 04:38
Looks like you have a High Pitch instrument, Eric. Look for the words "High Pitch", or initials "H P" or "H.P." somewhere near the maker's mark. Don't be disappointed if you find no mark as most instruments of the 1800s weren't marked. Many instruments besides Albert system clarinets were pitched higher than A=440 until around 1920. They're not much good today unless you're an unaccompanied soloist or can find an instrumental group that plays period instruments. The "average" high pitched instrument is about a quarter tone sharp and intonation deteriorates the more you try to adjust to standard A=440 pitch. The old string down the bore trick will help bring the pitch down but you'll find the tone quality spoils drastically.
In spite of all this, if it's a really nice horn and you want to play it anyway, you might find a guitarist or other string players willing to tune up to you.
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Author: chuck
Date: 2003-05-23 05:32
I'm lost, or unfamiliar with the terminology, but what does T123 indicate? Thank you, Chuck
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2003-05-23 11:20
T123 - The fingering for C below the staff.
Thumb and fingers 1, 2, 3.
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Author: chuck
Date: 2003-05-23 15:47
msroboto: thank you. I was thinking of tuning an octave higher.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-05-24 11:35
In 1994 as a recently graduated conductor for a small but enthusiastic school band program, I bought an old baritone horn at an estate auction for $200 Aust. It worked fine, but needed all slides pulled half-way out to be in tune. I was told by a brass-playing colleague that, in the early years of last century (twentieth, that is), instruments were generally pitched higher. This is similar to Ron's comment, but my colleague said nothing about it being part of an alternative pitch convention. It could therefore be just a high-pitched note on an already high-pitched instrument.
Cheers.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-05-24 13:01
Take Two...
What I said makes sense if we're talking concert (sounding) pitch. When you say "it sounds a B", I assumed you meant B on the piano. Is this right?
If the C fingering on the Albert clarinet plays a CONCERT B, meaning it sounds like a B on your piano, that means it's playing a C# for clarinet and it's sharp as Ron and I were saying.
If the C fingering on the Albert clarinet plays what sounds like a B on your normal B flat clarinet, this is actually a concert A. In which case you have an Albert system clarinet in A, and congratulations for finding it!
Which of these is the case?
Cheers again.
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Author: ericzang
Date: 2003-05-24 23:08
Thanks for all your feedback. Yes, it plays a concert B with T123. It has no markings what so ever on it, no brand name or anything. I presume it is an older style, only 2 rings and 12 keys (no rollers). It is plastic (ebonite?). Pads are fine on it.
Jee, rather disappointing that it is in such an unpractical key.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-05-25 00:50
While it has been rumored that there were clarinets made in B rather than Bb none have come to light. So I doubt that it is a clarinet in B.
If it were a High Pitch instrument instead of the current standard, fingering a C would give a note about halfway between a Bb and B.
Perhaps it was built to a different standard altogether.
How many trill keys does it have on the right hand side of the upper joint? The Boehm system has four. Alberts have three. Muellers and older styles have two or less.
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Author: ericzang
Date: 2003-05-25 09:42
Yes, I just tested it again and in fact it sounds in between a concert B and Bb. It must be a "high pitch" model. It is closer to B than Bb.
It has only two keys on the right side of the upper joint. Maybe it's a Mueller rather than Albert? Anyone have a link to Mueller clarinet description? I couldn't find one right away with Google.
Here's the ebay link with a picture.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2529259772&category=10182&rd=1
I'm interested in Greek clarinet playing, so that's why I went for an Albert, this one only has two rings (an advantage for this style?) and was relatively inexpensive.
[ no selling here - Mark C ]
Thanks again for all your help!
Eric
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-05-25 16:46
ericzang,
Keep in mind that the clarinet was an evolutionary thing. There can be some variation within a certain "style" of clarinet. Many of the "styles" persisted in production and use for decades after improvements were made.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-05-25 21:08
Dee wrote:
***While it has been rumored that there were clarinets made in B rather than Bb none have come to light. So I doubt that it is a clarinet in B.***
I own a Buffet clarinet (doughnut key era) that is marked H and there is no P. Horn is in very poor shape and has non-original 60mm barrel. Clarinet plays in the key of B. Intonation is very accurate with the only one note (open G) being 15 cents out of tune. If it had an original barrel I would say its B clarinet, but now, I don't know what to make out of it.
Vytas
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-10 10:13
Hi, there have been a number of identified B clarinets out there. I can't speak for others. I clearly have one with all the original parts tuned to 435. It seems people don't know what high pitch and French pitch are and get confused. High pitch was to 452, French pitch was 435.
Post Edited (2023-11-01 03:42)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-10-10 14:26
I'm curious about how people distinguish between a (possibly slightly out-of-tune) low pitch B natural clarinet and a high pitch Bb clarinet
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-10-10 15:20
Same way you tell the difference between a unicorn and a horse. One doesn’t exist.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-10-10 19:25
This gets brought up a lot, to the point where I count around a dozen or so alleged B natural clarinets. The problem is there is no evidence to support the existence of modern B natural clarinets such as a piece of sheet music, catalog or an invoice. They did exist in the classical era, but all of the alleged examples are late 19th or early 20th century instruments.
High pitch has been much higher than 452Hz, I personally have an "E natural clarinet" and Andrew Hardo has a Buffet bari sax tuned a semitone high. Nobody is out there claiming that bari saxes in E natural exist, so I see no reason why it should be different for clarinets.
I still have a $50 bounty out for the first person that can provide any documentation that B natural clarinets were made in the 20th century. You would think if they existed there would be some documentation, especially if there are so many alleged examples out there. If anyone has anything please send me an email. I'm happy to be proven wrong but as Carl Sagan said: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”
-JDbassplayer
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Author: oian
Date: 2023-10-12 02:16
This may help as to a "B" Albert clarinet. The SHERMAN, CLAY & CO. San Francisco 100+ page 1915 catalogue of band instruments has listings for clarinets from Jean Marbeau, Couesnon & CIE Paris and Buffet, Crampon & Co. They all have listings for Albert and a few BOEHN clarinets. The Keys listed are only A, Bb C and Eb in both High and Low pitch.
As an aside, I have a (1900-1910) low pitch Albert C clarinet marked Henry Pourcelle, Paris France LP C, that I got several years ago from the Goodwill auction site. The outside of the case was in terrible condition. When I opened the case, I was surprised to find a clarinet that looked like it had been played very little. The German Silver keys were dull from age (but when polished) looked new. The body, probably Ebony, was shiny without a scratch and the Ebony mouthpiece looked unused. I suspect it spent most of its life tucked away in an attic somewhere. All the pads seal and when I play T123 with the tuner set to 440 the note is right on C.
An interesting note on the mouthpiece, in the catalogue an Ebony mouthpiece was $0.50 while an Ebonite (hard rubber) one was $1.75. And an Ebonite one from Buffet was $ 4.50.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-26 11:12
There is enough factual evidence to repute the concept of many of these B clarinets being high pitch. I have heard a number of bizarre theories. Please provide factual evidence to support ultra-high pitch 461. Buffet clearly advise they rarely made horns to 452, a large number of these B clarinet are well above 452 (not high pitch but French pitch 435) there seems to be little understanding that these theories make no sense when tested against facts. Please support with facts. I have looked for info regarding these ultra-high pitch, found one on-line reference.
Buffet did not make ultra-high pitch, therefore... The Buffets must be....
Post Edited (2023-11-01 03:43)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2023-10-27 03:37
What I've never understood is why an R13 B♭ clarinet is marked an "R13 B" without the flat symbol:
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-27 13:08
Simple on-line research from multiple sources including the bulletin board and others identifies easily that music was written for the B clarinet. They all say similar things, yes there were/are B clarinets, yes music was written for B clarinets. Music for B clarinet was written for a number of Mozart operas.
Again, I would note the need for simple research and factual evidence is what is required. Not opinion which is instantly proved to be incorrect.
"I ( Richard ), wish to add parenthetically my own explanation that, when mention is made of ''the closely related but extremely rare clarinet in B" used by Mozart, the reference is to a clarinet actually built in that key. This is quite distinct from commonly encountered usage: Normally, of course, in German-speaking countries, when a clarinet part is stipulated as being for the B flat clarinet, it is designated as "Klarinette in B." On the other hand, in those same regions, the pitch of B natural is represented by the letter H. ( For example, J.S. Bach's "Mass in B minor" would be written as: Messe H-moll )."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Clarinet/comments/pkb0s1/is_there_a_clarinet_in_b_natural/
Post Edited (2023-11-01 03:39)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-10-27 16:38
There is no doubt that there were B natural clarinets in the classical era, but by the late romantic/modern era Mozart's operas were transposed for A clarinet.
This 1881 version of Idomeneo utilizes A clarinets in place of the 2 B clarinets.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Idomeneo,_K.366_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
Likewise this 1881 version of Così fan tutte also uses only Bb, A and C clarinets.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Cos%C3%AC_fan_tutte%2C_K.588_(Mozart%2C_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
Now if someone could find an original part in B natural ("H") from the late 1800s or early 1900s that would be good proof, but as far as we can tell these parts were played on the more common sizes of clarinet at the time.
Regarding A=452 being the maximum pitch that Buffet produced, This Buffet publication lists A=455, so that much be incorrect (page 30):
https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/920
And we do know Buffet built instruments MUCH higher. Baritone saxophone specialist Andrew Hardo has a Buffet bari that plays almost exactly a semitone sharp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxVmT7rObFY&t=15s
Also worth noting that in Austria, high pitch was A=461.5 until the 1960s! This shows that higher pitches than A=452hz not only existed in Europe but also stayed around for a long time.
https://rjmartz.com/horns/austrian-high-tuning/
It's entirely possible that some clarinet specialist from the late Romantic era or Modern era commissioned a B natural clarinet to play Mozart as originally intended, but we just don't have any evidence for it. I'm happy to be proven wrong but I find it hard to believe that there are a dozen or so B natural clarinets out there with a few more popping up every year without any documentation. Surely if they were that popular some company would have listed them in a catalog. Selmer listed C bass clarinets in several of their catalogs and according to Douglas Pipher they sold a grand total of.. 3...
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 14:42
Hi JD, page 30 in my book is blank????. Page 26 and 452 in my book. I own the original 1962 book. You???? Regarding facts i have provided photographs and had the instrument tested by an expert in period instruments. Tons of evidence facts examples and the clarinet. Unfortunately, your understanding of what constitutes facts is less than ideal. Having the original product in my hand is the ultimate fact😀 Unfortunately yet again your description of the pitch does not address the factual evidence at hand. This horn is in 435 tested by a world class expert. Who advised that the horn is in B. Please provide facts relevant to a 435 B clarinet. 461 in Germany still does not address this matter we are talking about 435 in America here. French pitch as I have provided independent researched documented evidence was common in America. Facts need to be relevant to provide a relevant argument.... I would note the two people who rebut this one stated that high pitch was a semitone high, not true, one said that an alto clarinet was in E because the neck was short. Both horns would have been abysmally out of tune. Great you have done some research, this is a start. Look at the subject matter at hand.
Relevant facts are what is needed... Please
Jd you have presented no relevant factual argument...
Not the way to convince me. As I have stated multiple times I am on the fence, I am simply looking at the facts...
Have a look a the current buffet site they made some crazy horns at the turn of the century. I am currently researching the St louis fair, Buffet showed an enormous number of crazy horns. If you want I can send through some links. jdbassplayer wrote:
> There is no doubt that there were B natural clarinets in the
> classical era, but by the late romantic/modern era Mozart's
> operas were transposed for A clarinet.
>
> This 1881 version of Idomeneo utilizes A clarinets in place of
> the 2 B clarinets.
>
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Idomeneo,_K.366_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
>
> Likewise this 1881 version of Così fan tutte also uses only
> Bb, A and C clarinets.
>
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Cos%C3%AC_fan_tutte%2C_K.588_(Mozart%2C_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
>
>
> Now if someone could find an original part in B natural ("H")
> from the late 1800s or early 1900s that would be good proof,
> but as far as we can tell these parts were played on the more
> common sizes of clarinet at the time.
>
> Regarding A=452 being the maximum pitch that Buffet produced,
> This Buffet publication lists A=455, so that much be incorrect
> (page 30):
>
> https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/920
>
> And we do know Buffet built instruments MUCH higher. Baritone
> saxophone specialist Andrew Hardo has a Buffet bari that plays
> almost exactly a semitone sharp:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxVmT7rObFY&t=15s
>
> Also worth noting that in Austria, high pitch was A=461.5 until
> the 1960s! This shows that higher pitches than A=452hz not only
> existed in Europe but also stayed around for a long time.
>
> https://rjmartz.com/horns/austrian-high-tuning/
>
> It's entirely possible that some clarinet specialist from the
> late Romantic era or Modern era commissioned a B natural
> clarinet to play Mozart as originally intended, but we just
> don't have any evidence for it. I'm happy to be proven wrong
> but I find it hard to believe that there are a dozen or so B
> natural clarinets out there with a few more popping up every
> year without any documentation. Surely if they were that
> popular some company would have listed them in a catalog.
> Selmer listed C bass clarinets in several of their catalogs and
> according to Douglas Pipher they sold a grand total of.. 3...
>
> -JDbassplayer
Post Edited (2023-11-01 06:56)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 14:48
Your argument does not address a clarinet in 435 (466) As mentioned Buffet did not make clarinets in the pitch you are talking about......A very poor argument...
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 15:26
Hi JD I only had a quick look at the Carl Fischer publication that you describe as a buffet publication. A balanced view of the facts would be 435 is stated as the common pitch, exactly as I have stated and provided consistent evidence of. As stated this is a Carl Fischer publicatio ....hmmmm look at the facts and represent them in a balanced and unbiased fashion. I have tried to be impartial and make statements based upon that. Please..,
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 15:50
Hi JD regarding the high pitch saxophone. If I took your argument if a horn exist it is factual.... Your processing of the available information confirms what I am saying . I have the horn in my hands. You provide no pitch for the saxophone, as a factual argument... (No facts there)
There are many post on the bb of people having clarinets in b made to play the works as mentioned. It's great you have an opinion. I work in facts all day long, Nothing challenging yet.
Remember I am neutral on this horn.... I am basing what I am saying on the facts, an instrument compared by bore dimension, pitch, length, tested by a world class expert on period instrument. I have not considered tone hole volume impact, which has the least impact on the volume of the horn and is for the sake of this discussion too hard to do.
Based upon documented evidence that supports this pitch was common at the time. The information provided by you supports this was a common pitch. The available documents advise Buffet did not make horns in any of the pitches you note.
Facts
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 16:19
The problem is you are being proven wrong and you are not happy about it😀
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-10-29 21:57
>Having the original product in my hand is the ultimate fact😀
>Hi JD regarding the high pitch saxophone. If I took your argument if a horn exist it
>is factual.... Your processing of the available information confirms what I am
>saying . I have the horn in my hands. You provide no pitch for the saxophone, as
>a factual argument... (No facts there)
These two statements are contradictory... There's a pitch listed right in the video, If you want a pitch in the standard format that would be A=~466Hz. Much higher than A=452Hz. You can't say that your instrument is a "fact" but someone else's instrument (also verified by an expert, it would be very hard to argue that Andrew is not a bari sax specialist) is not. Facts are still facts even if you don't agree with them...
You are correct that it is a Carl Fischer publication, not a Buffet Paris publication. Carl Fischer was the largest US distributor for Buffet clarinets though. This shows that Buffet clarinets would have been made to A=455Hz. I am happy to admit that I made an error, but the underlying point still stands.
>Your argument does not address a clarinet in 435 (466) As mentioned Buffet did
>not make clarinets in the pitch you are talking about......A very poor argument...
The HP bari shows otherwise. Again, facts are still facts even if you don't agree with them.
>This horn is in 435 tested by a world class expert. Who advised that the horn is
>in B.
Okay, but what about the key that the maker originally intended? A Bb clarinet at A=~461 would be fundamentally the same as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz. The question is, what is more likely to occur? We know there were instruments tuned to A=461.5Hz, it's strange to find one in America yes but at least we know they must have existed somewhere in the world. A late Romantic or Modern B natural clarinet? We do not have any direct evidence at this time. I don't doubt you in the slightest that your clarinet plays as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz, but we do not have any documentation that proves that that is the original key the maker intended.
>There are many post on the bb of people having clarinets in b made to play the
>works as mentioned.
These are period clarinets though. All of the claimed original B natural clarinets are either Albert system or Boehm system. it is much easier to make a custom period clarinet than to make an instrument with modern key work. This also doesn't take into account the fact that the movement to play pieces in historically accurate instruments is more of a recent phenomenon.
>The problem is you are being proven wrong and you are not happy about it😀
Being condescending and saying "facts" does not make your argument better. I have tried to be polite and am always happy to discuss the history of clarinets, but taunting is just childish.
As stated before, I am happy to be proven wrong and I am literally paying $50 to the first person to do so. Let me repeat that, am literally paying money for someone to prove me wrong! Proving they exist would mean I could start hunting for them and eventually restore some, as finding, restoring and playing rare clarinets is my passion. Until then, my concern is that people will try to sell HP Bb clairnets as "B natural" clarinets which I personally feel is unethical when we don't even have any direct evidence for there existence in the late Romantic/Modern era.
In any case, I think this discussion has run its course. If you ever come across some direct evidence like a catalog, invoice or a piece of music that can be accurately dated please send it my way and collect your $50. Until then, we have no direct documentation of B natural clarinets in the late Romantic/Modern era.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-30 02:49
JD
"You are correct that it is a Carl Fischer publication, not a Buffet Paris publication. Carl Fischer was the largest US distributor for Buffet clarinets though. This shows that Buffet clarinets would have been made to A=455Hz. I am happy to admit that I made an error, but the underlying point still stands."
It shows nothing of the sort, please this is silly. From what I remember Carl Fischer sold a variety of brands and instrument some were stencils.
This only show carl fischer sold "some" instruments at that pitch, it does not even mention buffet. Please read what you are saying, please be logical, make sense.
I have provided, and you have likely seen the buffet books (this is called a primary source, the better quality information) that says they did not make instruments to that pitch. This is printed documented distributed, published information. That is called facts.
JD you have been provided with, read, seen documentation, published information (the very stuff you want for facts) and seen that buffet did not make instruments to 461... They did not have the equipment to build them to that... Its great you have an opinion that they did (see above) They did have the equipment to build to 435 (I know the same pitch results and different notes) Again please stick to the documented, published by the manufacturer facts not what you want things to be. Unfortunately, you are ignoring the very things you say you would like. See below for???
"Okay, but what about the key that the maker originally intended? A Bb clarinet at A=~461 would be fundamentally the same as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz. The question is, what is more likely to occur? We know there were instruments tuned to A=461.5Hz, it's strange to find one in America yes but at least we know they must have existed somewhere in the world. A late Romantic or Modern B natural clarinet? We do not have any direct evidence at this time. I don't doubt you in the slightest that your clarinet plays as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz, but we do not have any documentation that proves that that is the original key the maker intended."
Its great you doubt world class experts and their opinion. Again the problem is if you look at the facts that it is the reverse of what you are saying a B clarinet at 435 is the same pitch as a Bb clarinet 461, problem is as we know from the documented facts Buffet did not make clarinets to 461. Buffet did not make the horn you are talking about again this is one of your arguments that does not stand any factual test. Please align your opinion in a logical order that is congruent with itself and the documented evidence. As occurs now people get instruments made for many reasons some to play Mozart works blah blah blah.
Like you I have an interesting collection.
As you highlighted 461 in Germany still does not address this matter we are talking about 435 in America here. French pitch as I have provided independent researched documented evidence was common in America. Not rare and unusual as your suggestion is, get a clarinet made for America in a German pitch what tha????.
Provide some documented fact as you are asking for and I am providing, be consistent with the documented facts.
You called it a buffet baritone. I could not see, identify any brand. Nor does the screen show any brand. Nor does the player mention any brand. Please provide accurate statements that are relevant. I cannot see how this proves anything, a random you tube showing someone who seems like a nice guy playing a number of low instruments and their bottom notes.
"The HP bari shows otherwise"
Further as we all know the bottom notes are where the 'tuning compromises' are usually made. So what you are implying is that the lowest and likely most out of tune notes on an instrument prove the pitch of the horn validates your argument. No one I know would think this was even a vaguely good way to tune.
Please do you really want to run with that??????? That would likely make most of my modern clarinets low Es in what pitch???? a very silly argument.
There is no-one taunting here the problem is you are saying things with no factual base and calling them facts, what you are providing is opinions and poor ones at that.
I am basing what I am saying on the facts, an instrument compared by bore dimension, pitch, length, tested by a world class expert on period instrument. I have not considered tone hole volume impact, which has the least impact on the volume of the horn and is for the sake of this discussion too hard to do.
Based upon documented evidence that supports this pitch was common at the time. The information provided by you supports this was a common pitch. The available documents advise Buffet did not make horns in any of the pitches you note.
I agree trying sell a Bb horn as a B horn is unethical. Lucky that was never mentioned, nor suggested, nor implied and in a previous thread I clearly stated that had not occurred and I had no intention of doing that. So this comment is totally irrelevant to the matter.
Now I work as an expert witness providing factual evidence to courts that is impartial. I have three auditing qualifications and two investigation qualification.
The following information you provided fails to meet the criteria for factual evidence. You have failed consistently to provide relevant factual arguments. Documentation is one form of confirmation. Interestingly you have totally ignored the documented factual arguments presented to you (buffet book, a primary source) and chosen to use unsubstantiated books (carl fischer publication, that does not mention Buffet an irrelevant source) you have consistently refuted the very documentation you say you want, which to your dislike demonstrates what you are saying is incorrect.
From my skills and experience the weakest form of verification is usually documentation the actual product/job in hand is always far more valid and factual. Let me know when you are willing to part with your $50, its highly unethical to state you will do something publicly that you have no intention of doing in reality.
"If you ever come across some direct evidence like a catalog, invoice or a piece of music that can be accurately dated please send it my way and collect your $50. Until then, we have no direct documentation of B natural clarinets in the late Romantic/Modern era."
You have now clearly states there is music for a B clarinet and there wer B clarinets. Excellent
If we use your argument, we cant say dinosaur bones are a fact, nor the horizon.... There's no catalogue.. Don't walk near the edge you may fall off:)
Did you go through the various BB threads were a person said they had a broken set of four clarinets. A, Bb, B and C and the case???? No catalogue....
On a note have you looked at the Buffet site for the crazy instruments they made and the number of instruments they displayed at the St Louis fair.
Post Edited (2023-11-06 12:04)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-30 05:03
Interesting.
My Albert system C clarinet (marked "Buffet Crampon" and "HP") plays in tune as a "clarinet in C#". I think it's in the garage in a box somewhere.... (we have about 100 clarinets that made the grade to be stored INSIDE)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-30 05:35
Hi Donald.
I am always happy to discuss facts.
Get it out, give us some measurement.
Play it to the tuner.
Take some photos.
Have you got a serial number/date?
Lets talk some facts????
Post Edited (2023-10-30 07:29)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-30 11:38
"let's talk some facts" are you accusing me of making something up? What a great big jerk!
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-30 11:59
Plus this annoying obsession some people have with the LENGTH of the clarinet is irritating- it gives only a cursory indication of pitch (gee wizz, you might also have to take into account the bore and tonehole location/size, plus mouthpiece capacity)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-10-30 13:25
crazyclari wrote:
>
> JD you have been provided with, read, seen documentation,
> published information (the very stuff you want for facts) and
> seen that buffet did not make instruments to 461... They did
> not have the equipment to build them to that... Its great you
> have an opinion that they did (see above) They did have the
> equipment to build to 435 (I know the same pitch results and
> different notes)
I may have misunderstood something, but if they had equipment to make a B natural clarinet tuned to A=435, then by definition they also had equipment to make a Bb clarinet tuned to A=461. They could simply use the B-natural equipment, right?
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-31 02:30
Regarding the instruments that were made by Buffet at the time. It seems like i am the only person to look at the Buffet websites and see what they did at the time. Seems like there are many people that have opinions.
https://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/our-story/
In 1907 Buffet featured:
14 oboe models of various systems in Bb, C, Db and Eb pastoral Oboes in G and Ab oboe d'amore in A, musettes in Ab, 8 different types of cor anglais and bartyon oboes, 18 bassoon type in C, D, and E simplified bassoons in F and G as well.
Simply at the time they were by modern standards ,makimg some crazy instruments in craxy chromatic keys.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-31 02:38
Hi Donald,
You seem to think there is something personal about wanting to talk facts.
This should be the goal.
Unfortunately your trolling type behaviour from your opening lines in previous emails and this has been of concern, offensive, uncalled for and repeated.
I am always happy to talk facts with anyone.
As has been demonstrated earlier in this and other threads there is confusion about simple history in many cases.
Simply look at the previous posts a number of people making comment without basic research and facts to support them.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-31 02:59
Yes, from what i have seen they could have. And to be honest may have. Like I said I sit on the fence. Sitting on the fence they 'could have' made ultra-high pitch clarinets and French pitch to the same specification, on the same day.
The problem is no-one is providing any factual information to support that level of 461 ultra-high pitch for Bb clarinets in use in especially America. Yet a number seem to be arguing the point, based totally on opinion. The people supporting this concept have not provide a shred of evidence that 461 was in use anywhere in America with Boehm system clarinets. Austria yes, likely with the various clarinet systems in use in Austria and Germany. As Carl Sagan said: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” please provide some for your extraordinary claims....
I have provided researched evidence I think it was for a PHD supporting the relatively common use of French Pitch in the USA. The clarinet has been played by a period instrument expert who confirmed the pitch. I have provided documented evidence that Buffet made clarinets to 435 and not to 461.
There may well be clarinets out there in both camps.
This is why I keep asking for facts as it seems most of what I have read so far is opinion based on very little to nothing that is of relevance or makes sense. (Usually/always nothing and non-sensical)
Happy for any valid evidence for either argument. Donald mentions he has a large number of clarinets but has yet to provide any pitches or dimensions. He mentioned a clarinet marked as HP and has not provided any factual evidence about the horn. Nor the horns pitch confirmed by a period instrument expert. The clarinet I am talking about is not marked as high pitch.
Others are pretty much the same, referencing off to who knows what sometimes, frankly it has got embarrassing and offensive.
The buffet quote above shows how at the time the instruments they manufactured were vastly different to what I would and likely others would consider normal. An Oboe in C is basically what you would expect now, then they made 14 oboe models of various systems in Bb, C, Db and Eb
This present an argument for the B clarinet, unfortunately they do not have the similar clarinet information at Buffet, as I have emailed them.
From the same website they had in production 226 instruments again a huge number by modern standards. They exhibited at the 1904 St Louis Fair and I am currently looking at researching through the relevant history museums.
Currently I am awaiting BANDS AT THE ST. LOUIS WORLD'S FAIR OF 1904. It will not likely help with the clarinets, but it does highlight how amazing the time was and how different.
Historically this was a pretty amazing time for instruments in a diverse range of keys and music played. The fair was used be the major manufacturers as a display. E.g. Selmer won a prize e.g. St Louis clarinet. I believe buffet displayed a very large number of instruments.
The B clarinet I own was made in January 1904 and is a full Boehm unibody. My suspicion is that it may have been made as a display model. Of course, unproven and never likely to be proven. Who knows, certainly not the people making up stuff.....
So far it seems you are more likely to find a unicorn than a Boehm clarinet in 461.
Post Edited (2023-11-01 07:04)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-11-01 07:20
Hi sorry to see you question was previously treated so rudely.
Simply (too simply)
French pitch 435, used in France and other places
Low pitch 440, now used generally
442 pitch often used on student instruments and in some places
Up to 452-455 at the extreme for high pitch played in many places
461 Used in Austria
There is no hard rule for the above and there are many variations over time.
In the past there is a greater variety of pitches which I have not noted above. Certainly huge variations.
High pitch clarinets 452 are about half a semitone sharp and markedly shorter than a low pitch clarinet. Roughly if you take of 1mm for 2cents tuning. So you would need to take of 6mm to make a high pitch Bb play one note in tune for a B clarinet. The rest of the horn would be grossly out of tune.
For the B Clarinet that I have with a 67mm barrel in 435, French pitch. If I used a shorter barrel of 64mm it plays at 440. The B I have is full Boehm and is with 1-2mm of the same length as a standard Bb. Mine is longer than a high pitch Bb (full boehm).
Feel free to let me know if this does not answer your question?
Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-10-10 14:26
I'm curious about how people distinguish between a (possibly slightly out-of-tune) low pitch B natural clarinet and a high pitch Bb clarinet
Post Edited (2023-11-05 08:14)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-11-06 12:43
I would note tbat I have read of clarinets with a 60mm barrel which in my opinion is likely a high pitch Bb clarinet with a very short barrel. E.g. 452 minus 6mm 12 cents equals 440
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-11-15 10:25
Hi all this is a very interesting link on 435/452/457/461 its about brass instruments but has some relevance
https://www.robbstewart.com/high-pitch-and-low-pitch
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The Clarinet Pages
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