 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2002-10-24 03:13
Two questions. . . .
1) Reed: I play vandoren V12 size 3.5 reeds. But lately, when I play on them, some of them seem to "clam up" after about an hour. It gets harder to move air through them and the notes sound "stuffier". Yet if I try a different reed (same size and make) it's fine. Is it just bad reeds? Cause in that case, two out of the four are bad but I don't expect that from vandoren V12?
2) Embouchre: I just tonight tried a double lip embouchre. I saw some posts about it and figured, hey, why not? I like it alot. I think it sounds MUCH better than when I play with just the bottom lip tucked. The thing is, I feel a LOT of pain after a while. Which is expected. Is id advisable to stick to one lip and just get better? Or should I work on the double lip? Also, is there really a way to deaden the pain with that?
Alexi
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Author: Alex
Date: 2002-10-24 03:19
1) Might there be an accumulation of moisture? Try taking your reed off, swabbing, and wiping excess moisture off the reed and see if that fixes anything.
2) I've found double lip embouchure effective as an excercise in tone quality, especially when used with long tone practice. The point is that you have to use the sides of your mouth to keep the note stable. It hurts because you're biting too much from the top and bottom, instead of pushing in from the sides. Personally, I use single lip for everything except long tone practice (generally no more than 10 minutes in a sitting).
-Alex
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-10-24 05:19
The single lip embouchure with teeth on top of the mouthpiece allows putting more of the mouthpiece into the mouth which some players prefer. It seems to me to be a more stable way of holding the instrument, also. The upper lip is not likely to be irritated by sharp teeth with a single lip embouchure as sometimes happens with the lower lip. Perhaps a tighter embouchure is possible with single lip playing as the upper teeth provide a solid resistance to pressure from the lower jaw making high notes more dependable. Yet, a few great players use the double lip embouchure for various reasons and sound very good. Good luck!
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Author: Karel
Date: 2002-10-24 06:37
Sfalexi, the pain in the upper lip improves as your embouchure strengthens. The advice I was given was to practice it with gradual increments of time. Tooth guard will also help; apparently it is possible to buy patches used under dentures, and mould them over you front upper teeth. That lets you practice longer before the lip "starts bleeding".
Karel.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-10-24 15:25
sfalexi -
As you've found, new reeds tend to close up after a lot of playing. You should switch reeds every 15 minutes or so until they are broken in, after which the'll be more stable. Still, most reeds will swell after an hour.
I play double lip exclusively. After you develop the embouchure strength and the same sort of callus on your upper lip as you have on your lower lip, the pain goes away. In the meantime, you can put something over your upper teeth as a cushion. Special material is made, but almost anything works. I usually use a small piece of chamois, but I've used newsprint from time to time.
Check with a mirror whether your upper teeth are sharp or have ragged edges or sharp corners. My upper canine teeth develop sharp points, and my dentist takes a tiny bit off every couple of years.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2002-10-25 02:33
Awesome replies. The reeds definitely are new so I guess they might have to be broken in, as well as for some odd unknown reason, I tend to salivate like ALL the time. Moreso than those dogs that Pavlov had. Even though I had my upper sidekeys and g# key corked, I STILL manage to get enough saliva in there to get that sputtle (I made up a word, but I think it fits) in there.
I think I'll work on that double lip embouchre. I just think it sounds much better to my ears than single lip. Also, it wasn't too hard to get used to, just have to develop strength.
I have two new questions in a seperate post. Completely unrelated, but just trying to save post space by using two-fer-ones.
Alexi
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-10-25 04:22
Alexi...As Ken and others have said, initially playing on a new reed for an hour or more is very unwise. Aside from the trouble with producing a sound, you will most likely do irreversable harm to the reed.
It is best to rotate among several reeds at various stages of "breaking in". That way there will always be some getting ready to peak as others are ending their lifespan.
Check the board for information on reed preparation and break in procedures. Lots has been written by some very knowledgeable people...GBK
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2002-10-26 01:32
An observation about double-lipping made in the Carl Baerman's Complete Method for Clarinet (pub.by Carl Fischer), on pg. 6, 'Embouchure':
"...the tone appears to the player himself - though in reality it is not - to be smoother,...The direct application of the teeth to the mouthpiece causes the player himself to be deceived at first, for the following reason: The two hard objects - tooth and (mouthpiece) - induce a vibration in the interior of the human head, which is communicated to the ear of the player; the outsider and listener, however, cannot perceive any difference whether the upper lip is drawn over the teeth or not." He continues to explain that a person's endurance in playing for any length of time is at least doubled if he plays 'single-lipped', it being a more natural and efficient form of playing.
This undoubtedly is an excellent method of training a good embouchure while warming with long tones and so on, as was mentioned. But I find it troublesome to expect new players to have to endure so much pain in order to just play music on the clarinet, a job that is tough enough as it is, without causing extra trouble to oneself.
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Author: tom piercy
Date: 2002-10-26 16:07
Regarding the above statement "enduring so much pain..."
I have had beginner students of various ages that I have started on double lip embouchure. I have not found them, nor have they found themselves, to be in so much pain. I believe it is mostly about the correct approach, closely supervised instruction and equipment (reed, mouthpiece) that enables a beginner to enjoy the benefits of double lip playing without causing extra trouble. They begin very early on to understand that it is not about "biting" the notes out of the horn, but more about air support and flow and firm embouchure that enables a pitch healthy and singing quality to be employed in their playing.
Tom Piercy
thomaspiercy.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2002-10-26 20:05
Hmmmm. I hope people still check this cause I made another observation about my first problem.
Using a plastic reed seems to forego this problem. The plastic reed (although producing a tone quite close to what could be called "crap") seems to stay consistent no matter how long I play. It keeps the same distance opening between in and the mouthpiece and is very comfortable to breathe and blow through whereas the cane reeds I have are making this increasingly dificult. Would that just further prove that the cane reeds nee dto be broken in?
Also, what should I store them in? I have one of those four reed LaVoz reed cases (slip the reed in) and it's tapered to keep the tip from warping. That ok? Should I shove them in all the way? If I don't get any responses I'll make a new post.
Alexi
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-10-26 20:18
"...Would that just further prove that the cane reeds nee dto be broken in?..."
Yes
As I said in an earlier post, careful reed prep, break-in and subsequent adjustments are crucial steps to achieve optimimum potential of any given reed.
Much has been written on these topics, here and in clarinets texts devoted to these subjects. It may be time to do a little outside reading.
Reed storage is a personal matter as to what works and (more importantly) is convenient.
Again, not to sound repetitive, but a search on "reed storage", "reed preparation", etc...(without the quotes) will yield <b>lots</b> of information.
Good luck...GBK
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