 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2002-08-25 01:45
Any hints on chord alterations to liven up the "standard" jazz chord progression? How should lead lines be modified to play over the new progressions?
Thanks!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-25 03:29
Your best bet is to get some good charts for guitar; they'll point you to some more interesting chord combinations.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-08-25 04:01
Can you explain a little further how this is a "standard" jazz chord progression? It looks like only part of something...
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-25 04:19
Try listening to some Brasilian Jazz. You will find many uses of deceptive cadences in that music. The progressions are almost totally unexpected and lend an impression of surprise and excitement to the music. Close attention should offer good ideas for your own work.
To see some really fascinating progressions with a selection you've probably heard but may not have noticed, check out a tablature or chord structure chart of the theme music from "Goldfinger." That selection has some really unusual (make that almost unheard-of) cadences, and the opportunities for improvisation on a clarinet are both beautiful and fascinating.
Any modifications of the lead lines might take the chords into account, but this isn't necessarily so. Plenty of unusually good-sounding stuff can have a solo instrumentalist filling out a chord with notes that do not appear in any of the accompaniment. No problem, especially with jazz.
I personally like to add suspensions which may produce grating dissonances, but good resolution (sometimes in an unexpected direction) settles it down. Try things before you dismiss them as bad ideas. Play *your* insides out, not somebody else's.
Regards,
John
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Author: Burt
Date: 2002-08-25 20:34
II-VII-I ??
Do you mean II-V-I?
Assuming key of C:
II (D) could be replaced by II7 (D7), ii (d min), ii7 (d min7). The ninth (E) could be added, also 11th, 13th. The IV (F) chord could be used; it has been for hundreds of years.
Modifying the V (G), is usually the V7 (G7), but ninth (A or Ab, even A# for a blues sound), 11th and 13th are common. Also the augmented, with or without the seventh (G+). Or the diminished7 (B D F Ab), which is an incomplete flatted ninth.
The lead line can (doesn't have to) use these added notes.
The best approach is to experiment.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-08-25 22:30
Interesting thoughts, but we don't know what we're talking about. A II or a ii, a VII or a vii or a 7th of something? Until something's established, like what it is and in what order, we're groping around for??? while Bach is ROTFLHAO :|
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-08-25 23:46
Yes indeed, the figured bass was a very good shorthand system for the talented keyboard player in baroque times.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-26 02:14
Uhh, Ron, speak for yourself. II-VII-I is to me a thoroughly reasonable sequence, incorporating an anticipatory cadence (II-VII, which stimulates the need for resolution) and a terminal cadence (VII-I, which provides resolution). Using first inversion of the VII chord allows the sequence to be played alla chorale without parallel octaves or fifths (in key of C, bass is D-D-C). Sure, a IV-V-I is more common, and it's used by almost all "three-chord-artists" of the world. I presume people mean what they say or type, not something else. So if wjk wanted a ii, he would have typed ii and not II. Et cetera. Perhaps my understanding of Bach is not as encyclopedic as someone else's, but I don't think JS would blink an eye at this. Needless to say, I have not interviewed the renowned Cantor personally, so I truly can't be certain. But I've not groped at all... does this mean there's something I'm missing?
diz, to me, figured bass is still a good shorthand system, even for more than the continuo players. But unfortunately, indicating especially the higher inversions is grossly impractical in ASCII. When you can't show selected superscripts *and* subscripts after the same Roman numberl, figured bass sort of pales. Then again, I never got into figured bass deeply enough to determine how one might indicate, say, a second inversion of a minor seventh chord with augmented 9th and diminished 13th. And even if I could, trying to read it would probably drive me nuts. Of course, something like that would be pretty scarce in Baroque music. For my purposes, I'd much rather see an abbreviation of the chord name and let the bass fall where it may. A good player would most likely pick an appropriate note anyway. For that matter, especially in a jazz milieu, who cares about parallel octaves -- nice for emphasis sometimes.
Regards,
John
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-08-26 02:18
You might like to read the wonderful Dr William Lovelock's comments on chords of the 9th, 13th - etc - He basically states that they are useless (in four part work anyways) because they are just variants of existing chords.
I was "brought up" on First, Second and Third Year Harmony - so call me old fasioned. Also had to study Free Counterpoint and the Examination Fugue - so I'm REALLY old fashioned.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-26 02:20
diz wrote:
>
> You might like to read the wonderful Dr William
> Lovelock's comments on chords of the 9th, 13th - etc - He
> basically states that they are useless (in four part work
> anyways) because they are just variants of existing chords.
But Jimi Hendrix loved the 13th chord ...
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-26 03:18
diz: I agree with Lovelock, except in the case of adding a 9, 11, or 13 to a seventh chord when you're using alternate seventh chords and removing every other fifth. Then a higher order note added could make sense. So the C ma7 add9 would be CEBD (if G is eliminated), which could even be spelled as a cluster, BCDE. To offer a progression that meets all the chorale "specs," try FACE- DFCE-CGBE. In this case, the DFCE is a seventh chord with added 9 missing its fifth; and if it's anything else, I don't see it that way. It's also simple to meet the requirements with the sequence given by using DFCB, which has an added 13 instead of the 9 (which no doubt could have become part of Jimi Hendrix's favorite chorale progression). This could be resolved to CGBE, with the E an octave up, although this would be pretty open. I leave the problem of an 11 in that chord (DFCG) to you. And look out for parallel fifths.
Regards,
John
who really likes Baroque but is nuts about Jazz
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-08-26 06:05
Mark - you'll notice that I don't advocate Lovelock's dislike for these chords - just advocate the study of his texts as a part of arming oneself with a cometent harmonic amunition.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-08-26 06:07
JMcAulay - years ago when I studied at the Guildhall (London) - my harmony professor made me study copious quantities of Bach Chorale Harmonizations ... this taught me a healthy respect for chromatic harmony.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-08-26 07:25
diz: My studies in music were at a *far* less prestigious institution, and compared to your stuff, my compositions are trite crap. But my first-year theory and harmony instructor was outstanding. Then she left, and for my second year, the college hired an utter jerk (oh, better make that *Doctor* Jerk). His idea of instruction was that I should evaluate fifty Chopin pieces, tabulating each cadence. Needless to say, this gave me no useful knowledge whatsoever and inculcated in me a dislike of Chopin which I still harbor -- as well as a lifelong dislike for Doctor Jerk. (I do believe he is no longer extant, and I just realized I even dislike his decomposing cadaver.) Anyway, after that, I left the school in utter disgust. When I did earn a Bachelor's degree, it was in Sociology, Psychology, and Political Science. I do wish I might have been able to bathe in the instructional excellence you enjoyed. I'd probably still be a poor musician, instead of having made nice bux building little trinkets and computers and stuff to go to Mars and such other keen places. But at least I somewhere acquired (by purchase) a copy of the Glenn Miller book on arranging, without which I might nowadays be lost, except I hardly ever use it.
That first-year theory and harmony instructor, by the way, said that in the first year, she would teach us all the rules. In the second year, she would teach us how to break them. Fortunately, I have not lacked for having learned sufficient of the latter without her assistance.
Regards,
John
autodidact
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