 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ozgida
Date: 2002-04-28 11:27
I am about to purchase an intermediate-level clarinet, and I am trying to decide between a Buffet E11 and a Selmer CL211. A very nice and knowledgeable sales person at Muncy Winds suggested the E11 because they apparently almost never crack due to special treatment: the wood is dried, treated with oil, dried, soaked in oil again, and the process is repeated. But he said other instruments are not treated this way (even from Buffet) and very frequently crack. I've read the many interesting posts on oiling or not, and types of oil, etc., but I didn't get the impression from my "research" that the E11 is treated very differently with respect to oil during manufacturing. Was the sales person right -- are the E11's much less likely to crack than other models?
I originally favored the Selmer because the Buffets are said to be so variable (and I don't feel experienced enough yet to evaluate -- and don't have access to an expert) but the sales person assured me that they have a pro musician test the instruments and they send back quite a few to the manufacurer. I am, however, quite able to spot sloppy/nice workmanship. I just returned two Yamaha YCL52's (to an internet store) because of surprisingly poor workmanship. My 20+ year old Vito resotone had nicer workmanship. I'm picky, but returning to tries of a product is unusual even for me. Sorry to stray a bit from my original question, but I thought maybe this extra bit would help someone give suggestions concerning my top two contestants. Thanks for any info!
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-04-28 11:43
E-11 Pros: 1. Free blowing
2. Adjustable thumb rest
3. Silver plated keys
My Cons: 1. Plastic inserts for tone holes
2. Outside sprayed with black lacquer to
hide imperfections in the wood.
jbutler
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Author: ozgida
Date: 2002-04-28 12:23
Thank you for the quick and helpful reply. Both the silver plating and thumbrest were important to me, and the Selmer has these features, too. I didn't know about the plastic inserts, and I'm dismayed about the black lacquer. I've only seen pictures of these things (I don't drive and local stores don't have them) so this is something I didn't know. I can't help caring about looks -- it's more pleasure to play something that looks and feels beautiful. I actually told the sales person that I preferred not to have a very dark finish because I like the look of wood (though I don't have a strong preference between dark brown and near black, so long as I can see and admire the grain). This is when he told me about the oiling process -- he said the E11 is dark because of this process. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and conclude that he was misinformed rather than dishonest. The Selmer is actually a bit more expensive but maybe they're offering a more competitive price on the E11 so he figured he's more likely to get the sale. I will probably still buy from them because I like the fact that they look over the instruments but still offer mail-order prices.
Thanks again!
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-04-28 14:57
As was recently posted, "intonation, intonation, intonation"...
I would also go with the E11
F. Aten
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Author: William
Date: 2002-04-28 15:59
My daughter plays a Buffet E-11 Bb clarinet and I use a Buffet E-11 C for orchestral needs. We are both absoulutely pleased with how well they play with regard to sound, response and intonation. I sometimes wonder why I spent so much money on all of my "professional level" clarinets when thses relatively inexpense and great playing E-11s sound so good. I have not been impressed by the playing characteristis of the Selmers, espcially the new Signiture model. They seem OK when play tested in the "audition room" but when actually played in a real musical ensemble setting (band, orchestra) they lack tonal "power" and musical expressiveness. I have played, and liked, some older Selmer model 10G's, but for the most part, Selmers are best suited for small ensembles and jazz. The workmanship of the Selmers is perhaps their biggest plus, but in "real-life" playing applications, they fall just a bit short of the LeBlancs (Sonata, Concerto and Opus) and Buffets (all models E-11 and higher--and more expensive).
For the most musical "bang for your buck" I would recommend the Buffet E-11 any day of the week. And you don't have top be an expert to pick one out. Simply try as many as you can, and pick the one that YOU like best. Does it sound nice? Respond (play) easily?? Notes of the scale sound even??? Relatively in tune???? (FYI--no clarinet is perfectly in tune--they all, regardless of expense and model, have to be played in tune).
Hope this is of some help in your clarinet search. You can next look forward to finding the "right" mouthpiece and the "perfect" reed (which may only be found in FantasyLand) Good Clarineting!! (we all "feel your pain") and feel free to come back with more questions or comments!!!!
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Author: FT
Date: 2002-04-28 16:22
One BIG problem I had with my E11 was that it was very very sharp. I've heard lots of other people complain about this too.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-04-28 16:47
The E11 is a student model wooden instrument. Buffet freely acknowledges this and, because beginners tend to play flat until the embouchure develops, pitches the E11 to A = 442. As a result, a player with a more developed embouchure playing in an A = 440 setting will find the E11 sharp. What is not clear is whether Buffet builds the E11 as an A = 440 instrument and then sharpens it by using a short barrel (in which case an easy solution is to replace the barrel with a longer one, perhaps a Chadash or Moennig) or whether Buffet actually optimizes the instrument for A = 442, in which case the longer barrel may still be a useful solution but not ideal.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-04-28 17:59
While I had not heard that the E11 has plastic inserts in the toneholes, I would consider this an asset as it would prevent leaks from chipped tonehole. Perhaps what was meant was the the E11s are fitted with plastic Valentino pads(owned by Buffet) which are quite highly recommended. Good luck!
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Author: Sarah
Date: 2002-04-28 18:09
It thought that all Buffets were stained, not just the E11.
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Author: John
Date: 2002-04-28 20:13
I have a Buffet E11 and I like it a lot. The sound is pretty even for the most part and intonation isn't terribly hard to achieve, in fact, it's quite easy to play in tune with the E11. The E11 is also a good projector (depends on mpc and reed too, of course) - in no way do I find my sound to be muted; I make up about 80% of the woodwind sound in my little high school's band.
My model was made in the early 1960s so things might have changed since then, but they are still quality instruments.
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2002-04-28 20:51
I am not sure about E11 found in the US, but as far as Europe is concerned, E11 are manufactured in Germany for the whole of the European market, not in France unlike other high-end Buffet models and are pitched in an A=442 as commonly played in Europe's orchestras. If E11 sold in the US are coming from the same source, and the E11 being an intermediate model, it is not customized to suit non-European markets where the concert pitch might be different like the US market. I would then assume that E11 are built as an A=442 regardless of the destination market. I insist this is pure assumption.
And I do own an E11, a Selmer Odyssée (new entry level pro from Selmer Paris) and a pair of RC prestige (Europe equivalent of the R13 Prestige), and I am indeed impressed by the intonation quality of my E11 compared to other horns (not that it is better of course, but close enough given the price difference).
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Author: ozgida
Date: 2002-04-28 23:43
Thanks everyone for the very helpful advice, especially since I know that this type of question is common and not terribly exciting. My playing is purely for enjoyment (I am a biologist) so I don't intend to purchase an instrument after this one -- this will be my one-and-only. So I want to make the decision carefully. I care a lot about it, even it it's not my profession. Probably I'll go with the E-11, even if I lean towards the aesthetics of the Selmer. No one raves about the intermediate Selmers, and the comments on the E-11 are positive from people who seem very experienced.
Thanks!!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-04-29 01:41
I have not tried an E-11 but my sources tell me that it does not undergo multiple oil treatments (although this might be a good idea). As already mentioned, the black color comes from a lacquer finish applied to hide filling compound used on "checks" in the wood (if present) and to cover up swirled grain and light and dark areas of the natural wood. True heartwood has a pretty consistent straight grain and subtle color variations from dark chocolate to black. The wood used in many student instruments is cut from areas closer to the surface that may have swirling grain and lighter areas closer to the bark and is less expensive than heart wood. The manufacutring steps are the most important to the relative intonation of a given class of instruments. Hope that you enjoy your new horn.
The Doctor
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2002-04-29 03:26
I have tried a number if E-11's, which are indeed free blowing and most have nicer throat B-flats and low C-sharps than my R13. If it's true that it's pitched at A-442, this--coupled with its free-blowing qualities--could make it the perfect instrument for doublers.
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Author: Lindsey Ondrey
Date: 2002-04-29 03:31
Plastic inserts in the tone holes? I don't think mine has plastic inserts. I could be wrong but last time I looked over my instrument (less than a week ago) I had never noticed such a phenomenon.
By the way, I used to play a Vito Resitone and switched to an E-11 last year and absolutely love the instrument!! I bought it from a music dealer on ebay (dominics music) and it was everything I could have hoped for when taking that risk. It has beautiful tone, and while it is a little sharp in the highest range which I have to compensate with fingerings and embouchure, it is a wonderful quality that far exceeds the Vito. I had tried a few other intermediate instruments my SR year of hs, but I didn't really know much to compare them and didn't try them in the same time period. I am completely satisified with the clarinet I have now, though, and would recommend the instrument to anyone considering that line of clarinets.
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-04-29 16:48
I would also think about the Leblancs and also the E12 from Buffet. I have a student who has an E12, and it's a really nice horn. No black lacquer that I can see, but I also don't know the actual specs. I have another student with a Leblanc Opus (I think--I'm a little sleepy and the memory is shot...). I also really like this horn. Great manufacturing and great tone and "feel."
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-04-29 18:05
Ozgida -
There's more variation between one instrument and the next of the same model, Buffet or Selmer, than between the B-11 and the CL211. You simply must try several of each and find one that's in tune and plays well. There's no substitute for actually handling and playing the particular instruments.
You're making a long-term investment, which can give you pleasure for years. Take the time now to choose correctly. If you don't trust your playing ability, take along a good player to try the instruments with you. If you have to shop by mail order, go to one of the dealers that will send you several instruments to choose among. I think International will send several instruments, but I'm not sure whether they do this for anything except top-of-the-line models. It's worth a call, and Brenda Siewert will probably know.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lindsey Ondrey
Date: 2002-04-30 04:36
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/dominic@world.std.com/
This is the man that I purchased my clarinet from last winter. I was very pleased with the transaction, he runs a music shop and allows you to exchange your instrument for credit for another one if you are not happy with the one you buy! I talked to him on the phone through the whole shipping process and was very happy with doing business with him. When it comes time to buy my minor instrument over the next year or so for school (either Violin or french horn... haven't made up my mind yet), if he has it, I will purchase it through him. Unless he states otherwise, all of the instruments are new with warentee still!
Hope this helps some!
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Author: ozgida
Date: 2002-04-30 07:09
Thanks all for your kind suggestions. I decided to request both the Selmer and the Buffet, so I can test them side-by-side. And I decided to stick with Muncy Winds, since they look over and test all the instruments. The price for the E-11 is very competitive. I know I can get it a bit cheaper over the 'net but I've learned with the two returned Yamahas that it's worth to have them checked out. I'll also test a couple of mouthpieces, while I'm at it. I'm looking forward to getting them -- and I'll let you know how I decide!
Edina
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-04-30 15:24
Yes, I bought a new one from Dom also but his business has been so good he now has raised the price....but it's still probably less than the one you're considering. Personally from my own experience I just don't believe the line about "testing" ....it makes a good sales pitch though.
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