 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-02-04 14:57
Periodically we get posts concerning instruments that have a suspicious or missing history. If it were a work of art there would be an established provenance. True, Brenda and other's provide a "head's up" about some items, and there is a outdated listing of some isolated stolen instruments posted here on the BB. BUT, is there no national source database where instruments could be registered and "tracked" so a history and ownership could be established.? This might help stop some thefts, short of quick and dirty pawn shop sales. Comments?
Bob A
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Author: William
Date: 2002-02-04 15:18
Do you suggest that we all should register our "weapons?" Background checks of ones musical abilities and history might also be a consideration--might have saved us all from the Anker Bilks of this profession, although he has probably made more money playing his clarinet than most truely talented clarinetists ever will (seems "criminal" in a way). Seriously, Bob, you have presented an interesting idea, but I think that the implementation and enforcement of such a grand venture as this, would prove impractical given the limited scope of the problem. It is true that some very expensive instruments, as well as many student instruments, as frequently stolen (or lost), but the vast majority of muscians never experiance this problem, and, while I do not have any hard statistics, I would suspect that the percentage of stolen/lost versus not, would be very low--too low to really pay some agency to enforce a national (or international) system of registration and tracking. But, if such a system of registration and tracking were ever to be implemented, a good place to start might be with the American Federation of Musicians--of which I am proud to have been a lifelong member, local 166. Good Clarineting (and lock your car doors)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-02-04 16:17
Perhaps agencies do not need to get involved. I've had a Yamaha grand piano for something like 30 years, and after I bought it, the seller sent my name to Yamaha. Several years later I lost the key to the instrument, and upon contacting Yamaha, they wanted to know who I was and what was the serial number of the instrument. When it checked out, they were kind enough to send me a new key at no charge. I don't know if they keep such data forever, but I sure was impressed by that experience.
To me, any clarinet maker willing to handle such a database would have a positive selling point. Making it easier to discover a stolen instrument, perhaps even recover it, sounds very good. And computer maintenance of such a database would be so much easier than any old manual method. If appliance makers can do this to establish where to send recall information, surely it can't be enormously expensive.
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Author: Thomas
Date: 2002-02-04 17:01
That sounds like a great idea, but who would maintain such a database and who would address and be responsible for the security of the information, such as your name, address, and the serial number of your instrument. The database itself would be relatively simple to build so that is not the issue, and with some good queries written it might prove to be a valuable research resource for those interested in the history of their clairnet, a particular model of clarinet etc. A good idea that should at least merit further investigation.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-02-04 17:31
ACKER Bilk, William. Let's give genius its correct name.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-02-04 19:45
I suggested a "buyer's beware" list of questionable sellers once before and was reminded that that might be considered "slander," so forgot that suggestion. If people would report the theft of their clarinets there might be some way to keep an eye out for these when they show up on eBay. But, being an educated buyer is probably a better way. Here's some things I look for when "browsing" to purchase a used instrument on eBay or through the internet from an individual:
1.) If it no longer has a case I want to know what happened to the case---why? Because sometimes an instrument is "lifted" from a chair or instrument stand while the musician's back is turned--therefore you have instruments with no case. I found a Tom Ridenour clarinet on eBay last year that was going for $100.00 (they sell for about $649.00) and it had no case. I emailed the seller and he offered it to me for less and said he didn't know what happened to the case. I didn't buy it because I don't buy things I suspect might be stolen.
2.) An unusually low sales price is sometimes an indicator that it might be stolen--as with the Selmer Signature I pointed out yesterday. However, if the seller has positive feedback and you contact them and find out they have an unusual situation and are needing money quickly--that would also explain a low sales price.
3.) A seller who wants immediate cash and has negative feedback.
4.) When you get the instrument, if the serial no. has been erased or sanded off, it might be stolen--or might have been stolen at one time.
5.) Legitimate sellers don't mind giving you a telephone no. and references from former buyers. They are also easy to "track" and have legitimate addresses or P.O. Boxes that are regularly used for their "business."
There are other "alerts" out there that we've learned as we have bought and sold via eBay and the internet. Some of you probably can add to this list.
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Author: willie
Date: 2002-02-04 20:22
The lack of a case is a good sign to watch for. I have seen several cases at resale shops, pawn shops and even music stores where someone had lifted the horn and left the case. Last December, one of the big music stores in Houston got hit for several small instruments in just one day because they were very busy and left an instrument on the counter for someone to look at while trying to help as many customers as posible.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-02-04 20:47
I don my lawyer's hatl
Lists of stolen property are not maintained nationally. Pretty much all of them are kept by local police departments. This is required by law, and its main purpose is to give the police the right to sell abandoned property free of claims from the true owner, because the owner is given "constructive notice" by the fact that the list is publicly available.
About a year ago, David Hattner's stolen bass clarinet appeared on eBay, and there was a lot of discussion about it. Apparently the police had sold it without checking the serial number, which David had reported to them. Even so, I don't think he got it back. eBay terminated the auction, but the seller put it up again several times under different names.
There's so much stolen property around, and so little of it has identifying marks, like a serial number, that it would be of little use to maintain a national registry, let alone an international one for the clarinet makers in France, England, Germany, Italy, Japan and Argentina.
The smaller and more prestegious makers keep lists of their instruments and original owners and will tell you if a particular one has been reported stolen. I called Haynes to find out about a flute I had been offered at a low price, and they confirmed that it was not reported stolen. On the other hand, the von Huene workshop told me that a recorder I had been offered was stolen, and I got in touch with the owner and he recovered it.
Clarinets are seldom custom-ordered, and, for example, with Buffet serial numbers approaching 500,000, and Buffets freely traded, it would be nearly impossible to keep track, particularly since it would be an extra expense that would produce only good-will, rather than profits.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-02-04 21:10
But Ken, isn't it a shame that corporate profit margins have replaced any considerration of good will.
Bob A
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-02-04 23:04
Realistically, in my opinion, Brenda's checklist is about as good as it gets.
From my limited experience in such matters, which amounts to once unknowingly buying a 'cheap' horn that was indeed stolen, it seems to me that band instruments are bought, sold, traded much like baseball cards. Music stores and repair shops record serial numbers, individuals ordinarily do not. Sometimes local police officers check pawnshops and thrift stores for stolen items reported to them. Generally though, without a direct lead, they just don't have the time or personnel to check out every reported theft. Your safety is their priority; by comparison, stolen clarinets and boosted bicycles are insignificant. If you have insurance, a police officer will make out a certified report so you can present that to your carrier. As much as they'd like to, they just don't have the time or staff to do more.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-02-05 04:27
2 things that can be done...
1. Keep your instruments insured.
2. Never give into the temptation to buy any instrument you suspect might be stolen. Unlike many other items, clarinets have a very limited market, the harder they are to sell, the less likely they will be stolen.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-02-05 13:29
Seems to me that stolen clarinets represent a situation just like many other portable valuable items such as diamond rings, bicycles etc. The fact that a clarinet is usually in multiple sections makes identification more difficult and probably impractical. Yes, "owner beware" is probably the best avenue including insurance. Naivety, inattention and absent mindedness are its enemies. In the end each of us is responsible for the safety of his/her possessions.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-02-05 13:41
Just like anything else, we have to keep our desire for a certain instrument "in check" until we have looked into the circumstances surrounding the seller's intent to sell and reputation. Will that person be around tomorrow? If so, where will he/she be? An honest person is not afraid of questions.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-02-05 19:34
Do you have a list of every musical instrument you own, *with serial numbers*?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-02-05 20:48
Yes, I do. But, I have a lot of expensive instruments and travel internationally and my insurance carrier requires it.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-02-06 01:49
Half of the instruments I own are "homemade" or special-made and do not have serial numbers. However, my family has "poor-man's" insurance. That is, we take a picture of every instrument that we have IN OUR HOUSE with one of us in the picture holding the instrument. We make sure the brand and company is perfectly visible. That way, if there's a fire or natural disaster, we can show our insurance agent every detail we have about an instrument we lost. E.g., we have a hurdygurdy, factory made, no serial number that I am aware of, cost $1000, and from what I know almost impossible to insure. My older sister (who recieved it as a graduation present) had her picture taken with it and holds the picture for safekeeping.
Not to many of our instruments are expensive, so this is an adequate substitute. I'm sure if I had Brenda's share of wealth in instruments I'd invest in insurance too.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-02-06 04:11
Handmade, non-numbered items are not impossible to insure, but need a detailed apraisal report (and likely photos) from an expert in the field. The cost and bother of this might make it impractical. Your agent can recomend apraisal services and suggest what such a report needs to contain.
David's suggestion of a photo record is one made by many insurance agents and companies. This applies to all possessions, not just instruments. Digital photos, or video make this easy. But... Be sure such records are kept in another location, a safe deposit box would work, as would the home of a non-resident relative.
A rider on a homeowners policy for a non-professionally played instrument is rather inexpensive. We insure a rather new R-13 for under $15 a year.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-02-06 16:20
My policy is a standard homeowner's with the extra clause for the instruments. I have a very valuable Martin guitar that is not replaceable. So, I'd rather have the guitar than the money, but at least there would be some compensation. Also, when I travel overseas to play with the orchestra in Israel and sometimes other countries, I take a Bb, A and a C clarinet--so add that up and you have quite a bit of money involved. Insurance is a good thing in such situations. If I didn't travel with the instruments I don't know whether or not I'd carry extra insurance.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-02-06 17:19
Gosh Brenda, In Israel I had them take apart my camera tripod at customs. What do they take apart when YOU show up with all that stuff? A dismanled clarinet or a destringed Martin sounds like a pain to me!
Bob A
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-02-06 18:29
Ah, Bob--what a question!! Yes, at Ben Gurion the security is extremely high. They always go through my instruments while I gasp and hand them my receipts and the orchestra program with my name and my written invitation. I always have to go through about 45 min. to an hour of interrogation on the return trip. Getting in is easier than getting out. It takes 3 hours total before take-off just for security--but that's pretty much for everyone.
I never take the Martin on an airplane. Guess I didn't make that clear. But, our orchestra plays a concert for the Prime Minister and Mayor of Jerusalem and other foreign dignitaries each year and you have no idea of the security nightmare that can be--especially when things are tense (like the last few years). The security guards took my clarinets away one year and opened the Bam case (with a slightly rounded bottom) and dropped my Buffet Prestige onto the floor of the International Conference Center. They were quite rude and didn't apologize or anything--but did allow me to open the next case myself. My friend has a Strat. violin and he about had a stroke after what happened with my clarinet. He demanded the head of security and was allowed to open his own case and handle the violin.
Sometimes the security people will ask you to play the instrument. I have more stories than you want to hear.
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