 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Josh Schultze
Date: 2001-12-19 21:15
About 4 months ago my clarinet playing friend got braces. Recently she has lent me on permanent loan (unless she should decide to play the clarinet again), a wonderful LeBlanc clarinet in C.
I've been playing this wonderful yet strangely sounding clarinet for about a month. I can't tell you the delights of being able to play any vocal, or oboe music without mentally transposing.
I have some questions:
1. Why does the clarinet in C sound so much different than the Bb clarinet? The difference between the Bb and A is unnoticable except when the piece piece has many B's and Bb, then I can tell the difference. But the overall sound is essentially the same. But the C clarinet sounds very different; maybe more like an oboe or soprano sax. Yet clearly the sound is certainly a clarinet sound and to any clarinetist it would be obvious that a clarinet is playing and not an oboe or soprano sax.
2. Why is the C clarinet not much more popular? The second clarinet a person usually buys is the A. Yet the clarinet in C opens up a huge chest of other musical treasures. In essence the whole oboe repertoire can be played as is. The wonderful Baroque musical tradition of recorders and Flutes opens up. And much later flute music is playable except pieces with very high notes. Pop and Broadway music becomes much easier to play. Like I said before not transposing is easier. I can focus on playing the music and making it sound better.
3. Why don't younger kids learn the C clarinet first? I remember that some of my smaller classmates had to wait until their fingers could either reach the keys or cover the tone holes completely before they could begin on the clarinet. Yet the C clarinet is both smaller; kids can start sooner, and it is pitched in C; easier for the younger brain to grasp.
Thanks
Josh
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Author: Kim
Date: 2001-12-19 21:25
I know that there is something available called a 'kinder clarinet' which is just basically an e-flat clarinet designed for younger beginners with smaller hands. Starting on a C would seem to make sense for the same reasons.
As for the sound, an E-flat clarinet sounds VERY different than a clarinet, and to me a C clarinet is something in between the clarinets (A and Bflat) that we normally play on and the Eflat (sound and pitch-wise). (By the way, I do think that there's a difference in sound quality between Bflat and A clarinets. It is just a subtle one.)
As for why they aren't used more, I don't have a good answer, as I think that you brought up some very good points.
By the way, does the C take a Bflat clarinet mouthpiece, or a special one?
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Author: diz
Date: 2001-12-19 22:07
Josh, I would tend to disagree with you on the difference in sounds between B flats and As - I think the A has a slightly darker tonal quality (though only very slight). Also, the C clarinet was much loved by Dvorak who scored for it in many of his orchestral compositions - especially some of the Slavonic Dances. The sound of the C clarinet is delightful - isn't it? Somewhere between the high pitched "cheeky" sound of the E flat soprano and the mellow, reedy sound of the B flat.
Also - you might be interested to note that Dvorak also scored for the Contrabass clarinet in his opera Kate and the Devil (he also used a bass clarinet and two "soprano" clarinets in the same score). I own four of his operas in full score, and adore his clarinet writting especially. The writting for clarinet in his Carnival Overture is just remarkable (as in the New World's scherzo).
I'm envious of your playing of the C clarinet - when I win loads of money in lottery I'll buy one, and a contrabass!!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-19 22:23
There are many works in the standard orchestral repertoire where a C clarinet is called for, and you will find that most major symphonic clarinetists own one.
Whether it is "proper" orchestral practice to transpose these parts to the Bb clarinet is another question in itself, and lends to a discussion on performance practice. Perhaps another time...
I have an R-13 C (I use a Bb mouthpiece) with a Chadash barrel, and wouldn't be without it. It certainly gives you a new perspective on the particular piece, and the composer's thought process when you perform with the C clarinet. I couldn't think of doing Mozartiana / Symphonie Fantastique / The Moldau / etc...without it...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2001-12-19 22:42
Don't you just ADORE Dvorak's use of the clarinet - he was masterly!
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-12-20 02:58
Maybe I'm old school and/or had mean taskmasters for teachers, but unless the instrument wasn't available for any reason why wouldn't a player use the C clarinet when it was called for? I would think it's a matter of basic "musical integrity". If a player is transposing a written C part on Bb for mere convenience shame on them.
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Author: Sandee
Date: 2001-12-20 03:17
My main clarinet is in C and I love it! I haven't really noticed that it sounds that much different from a Bb, though.
In addition to the "Kinder" Clarient in eb, I've seen ads for a Lyons clarinet in C, made virtually indestructible for the use of children starting on clarinet.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-12-20 04:44
A lot of the Italian operas have C clarinet parts and, in many cases, they could have written them for Bb clarinet, indicating that they wanted the C clarinet sound. I guess the bottom line is that a lot of clarinet players don't have the funds to buy a C clarinet when they can transpose the part quite easily.
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Author: LynnB
Date: 2001-12-20 15:44
I took a vacation from clarinet for a while so I might have missed something. But when I was growing up, NOBODY had a C and if you didn't transpose to C you were looked down on for lack of mental capacity. I always thought it was kind of annoying to transpose so much (I was playing operas and lots of symphonic works). I think it's great we can use C clarinets now, but when did this change?
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Author: Josh Schultze
Date: 2001-12-20 16:28
Kim,
I response to your question for the C clarinet I use a Bb mouthpiece.
As for using the clarinet that is called for in the score I think there are two essential questions involved here. First, was the composer aware of the many clarinets available to him/her and thus their choice of clarinets based on desiring a particular sound?
Or was the composer totally clueless about the many clarinets and their distinct voices and scored the music in what they percieved to be the "standard" clarinet? And, for example, ended up writing for the Bb clarinet and in the key of F# Major.
I don't know how you would go about finding out what the composer was thinking when the piece was written. However, I think some attempt should be made to understand how detailed and extensive the composer's knowledge of the clarinet was and make the decision to transpose based on this knowledge.
This leads me to another question:
What composers do you feel had extensive knowledge of clarinets or worked closely with a professional clarinetist and thus wrote for specific clarinets because they had a distinct sound in mind?
What composers really had no idea about the clarinet and wrote their music without special consideration of the tone quality of each differently pitched clarinet?
Thanks
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Author: Kim
Date: 2001-12-20 18:29
Well, I'm under the distinct impression that Mahler in particular wrote for the clarinet based on sound quality of the different clarinets and not what was easier or made more sense technically. I've just played way too many Mahler symphonies where I have to make a ridiculously fast instrument change so that I can play in a key signature with 6 sharps or 7 flats, when the whole thing would be so much easier on the other instrument.
Oh, and I would guess that Weber (and Mozart) had a pretty good knowledge of the clarinet and what worked. I think that Weber in particular was able to write for the clarinet in such a way that can make many less-technically skilled players sound like a virtuoso. That aspect of his writing always amazes me.
I also beg to differ about most clarinetists in major orchestras owning a C clarinet. I would say that owning C clarinets may be fairly common in the top 5 or 6 orchestras, but in every other orchestra that fits the category of a 'major' orchestra, I'd say that less than half the players own one. Now, my estimate is anything but scientific, but it's based on the following: I've studied primarily with players in major orchestras, I've played in a few of those orchestras myself, plus I've taken 'a few' lessons with lots of (15-20 at least) other players with major jobs (always in search of a fresh perspective!), and I haven't found owning a C clarinet to be very common at all. I knew someone that purchased a C a few years ago from Buffet (principal in a major orchestra). They had to special order it and take whichever instrument that they sent them (as opposed to trying tons of other types of clarinets) I think that owing an E-flat/Bass is much more common than owning a C. (Not that I think that this should be the case). In any case, that's my experience/opinion.
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Author: diz
Date: 2001-12-20 20:55
Kim - do you own a C and play one in your professional life? Just curious - I think they're a wonderful idea - I can't seem to find out if our professional clarinetist use them here (Sydney, Australia) - I might send an email survey through. It would be a fascinating survey to undertake - especially if professionals' views on the difference in tonal quality is a primary factor. What do you think?
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Author: Kim
Date: 2001-12-20 22:00
diz, I think that the survey is a great idea. Perhaps you could include in it a survey of how many professionals make their own reeds.
I don't personally own one. I haven't made getting one the priority that I would have if more players in major orchestas owned one. I do plan on buying one in the next few years, however, as I never feel exactly right about transposing. There's always the nagging feeling that I'm not honoring what the composers intended. Plus, I think that they'd make some of the opera excerpts (among other things) much easier.
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Author: diz
Date: 2001-12-20 22:24
Yes indeed. I go on about this endlessly, but Dvorak's probably my favourite composer when it comes to beautiful clarinet writting. Especially the scherzo of the New World. His use of the clarinet in Rusalka is just sublime. Interestingly, he used the C clarinet in the slavonic dances, even when the key might have suggested a B flat more appropriate, however, he was such a consumate artists that I'm sure his aural sense just found the C clarinet (particularly in the Dances) the "right" tone quality. I guess the trick is that the more people start buying C clarinets the cheaper they will become. I'm purchasing an E flat (purely selfish reasons) after not having played the clarinet in around 10 years. I was going to buy a B flat, when I though, damn it, I'll be an E flat - then if I can regain my technique (I got up to Licentiate standard in high school) then I'll play in a small clarinet choir or concert band, and with the E flat - I'll ALWAYS get to play the nice twiddly and tune-y bits!! God, am I selfish or what?? But, seriously, my "baby" is coming from a guy in upstate New York - and I can wait to get it (January 2002) and start playing again.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-12-20 23:22
In the classical/romantic period there was a tradition among composers to never write for clarinets in keys with more than two accidentals. Normally never more than two flats or one sharp. Only occationally a piece can modulate into written D major. (A big exception is the b major scale in "Shepard on the rock" by Schubert). The reason for this is that some scales and arpeggios are practically impossible to play on older types of clarinets.
In orchestras of the same periods the normal setup was A, Bb and C. I don't think that the choice of clarinet made by the composers of orchestral pieces of this period had anything to do with the sound of a certain clarinet. They simply decided which key the piece should have and wrote for the clarinet according to the tradition. This is not necessarily true in solo works and chamber music however, where I think the choice of clarinet had a great importance in the choice of key.
As the clarinet became more develloped and more technically fluid in all keys, the C clarinet disappeared more and more in classical music. It was easier to carry around only two clarinets instead of three. Ivan Müller called his invention "The clarinet omnitonique". "From now on only one clarinet, the B flat, is needed since all the notes are there and one can play with ease in all keys". However, the A cl. was too appreciated for it's sound so players decided to not let it go and that's where we are today.
Since it has become more and more important in the last decades to pay more attention to the composers intentions the C clarinet has been re-introduced more and more in orchestras again. At least in Europe. I find this a very fine devellopment myself and my section would use them more often if we only had better instruments. But that day will come soon, I'm sure.
Alphie
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Author: Josh
Date: 2001-12-20 23:50
This has to be one of my favorite threads on here in a long time Gotta throw in my two pennies...
I agree in some form or another with what everybody has said so far, and I would just like to add that I think the C clarinet is becoming MUCH more accepted and acceptABLE as part of the standard orchestral clarinetist's setup, regardless of professional/amateur status...let us take into account that, where, a few years ago, if you wanted a C, it was a special order, and it cost you HUGE bucks and was only available in the top of the line horn (R13, Opus, LL, etc), NOW, there are intermediate level C's being made...E11, Noblet, Esprit, in addition to the plethora of pro models like the Concerto and the Patricola that bridge the price gap between the $800 horns and the $5000 horns. Since the major makers are seeing fit to make them available to the student/intermediate sector, I think we should take that as a very positive sign that the C clarinet trend is becoming something to take seriously, and we're going to be seeing more and more of them in the near future, something for which I am personally quite glad
Happy clarineting!
Josh in San Francisco
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Author: IHL
Date: 2001-12-21 21:20
Posted by Diz:
I think the A has a slightly darker tonal quality (though only very slight).
I think this could be explained if the A clarinet had the same size bore as the Bb (which I think it does), while being slightly longer. It is much the same thing that gives the basset horn its beautiful dark tone, while the bass sounds quite different.
Well, that's my theory anyway.
Do any comanies still make clarinets in C or any other unusual(for clarinets) keys?
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Author: Josh
Date: 2001-12-21 21:38
they (almost) all do! (except maybe Yamaha, I'm not sure if they do a C or not, I don't think so.) You can get C clarinets (of varying price points) from Leblanc, Buffet, Patricola, Selmer, Stephen Fox, not sure if Luis Rossi makes a C, but I know he makes a D, and I'm sure if one digs around a bit, there are others to be found.
*orders up a round of C clarinets for everyone!*
Ta, and happy clarineting (on whatever keyed horn you happen to be doing it on!)
Josh
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Author: IHL
Date: 2001-12-22 05:57
I checked www.yamaha.com, there was no information about clarinets in C, so I think they only do Bb, Eb and A.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-12-23 13:51
I've owned Leblanc and Patricola Cs, and found the Patricola to be an exceptionally good C. I paid $1,895.00 for mine through International Musical Suppliers and was not disappointed in it. It has a lovely, lyrical tone and nice key-action.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-12-24 17:53
A few belated comments on the C clarinet:
While Bb mouthpieces generally work with C clarinets, there are mouthpiece makers who make mouthpieces specifically for the C clarinet. I think Jerry Hall is one and I vaguely remember seeing one mentioned in a Charles Bay ad. I have not seen a C mouthpiece though common sense suggests it would probably be a little smaller than a Bb. My Selmer C came with two distinctly different length barrels. I suspect one is for use with a Bb mouthpiece and the other for use with a C.
The use of appropriate clarinets has been discussed at length on the Klarinet archive. Dan Leeson (formerly of the L.A. Philharmonic) has provided a number of thoughtful and persuasive postings on this topic. He agrees with Alphie that, in the classical period at least, composers chose their clarinet based on the key of the piece they were writing. However, he goes on to argue that one should assume composers were knowledgable regarding the characteristics of the instruments they were writing for and, once the clarinet was determined, wrote clarinet parts that fit the particular instrument's character/sound. In other words, they composed differently for the clarinet when the piece dictated a C clarinet than they did when the piece dictated a Bb. (Dan is much more articulate in his explanations.) His conclusion is that one should adhere to the instrument specified by the composer whenever possible.
I suspect that sales of C clarinets are up but I also suspect that the increase is more due to purchases by dilletantes like me (amateurs with more money than brains ;^) ) than professionals. When I happened to mention owning a C to a local professional a few years ago, she told me that she thought the only other person to have one in St. Louis was Bob Coleman of the St. Louis Symphony. AFAIK, George Silfies and Jim Meyer transpose. I don't know about Tina Ward or Bob Coleman's current substitute. Perhaps this explains why Buffet added a C to their E11 line as well as the popularity of the Noblet C.
Best regards and happy holidays,
jnk
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-24 18:00
Jack...Ralph Morgan also makes C clarinet mouthpieces. I used one for a while, but then decided to go back to a Bb mouthpiece in combination with a Chadash barrel on my R-13 C clarinet (1978).
I found the Morgan C mouthpiece ok, but with not a much flexibility and color as my current Bb mouthpieces (Fobes / Vandoren crystal)...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-12-26 04:28
GBK,
Thanks for the info. I don't think I've actually ever seen a C mouthpiece. Was the Morgan somewhat smaller overall than than a Bb? Also, what did you do for reeds?
Happy holidays,
Jack
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-26 05:07
Jack...The Morgan C clarinet mouthpiece seemed to just be a slightly shortened version of his Bb model. Sorry, I don't have the actual dimensions (length, bore, etc...), perhaps others do.
I used my normal Bb reeds with no problem...GBK
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-12-29 16:23
Patricola has gotten some pretty good comments, and is a bargain at that price. Some other brands have intonation difficulties in the altissimo register - they are very flat. A tryout with your mouthpiece is recommended. Also, look at http://www.sfoxclarinets.com for more information on C instruments and intonation.
The C instrument has a *much* brighter sound than the B flat - this may be a problem if you have one and the rest of your section does not. Someone I know relented and played a C part on her B flat because she was so much brighter than the other clarinets in her section.
I have a C instrument and it sure is convenient, although I am so used to doing what I do on B flat and A instruments that it is taking me a while to figure out exactly when to use the C.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2002-01-21 02:16
I can confirm that Ralph Morgan's C clarinet mouthpiece is not just a shortened version of a Bb mouthpiece. It is designed to have the correct amount of chamber volume for the internal measurements of a C clarinet. A Bb mouthpiece will have a little too much chamber volume. I tried a number of Bb mouthpieces on my C clarinet and wasn't entirely happy with the results. When I tried a Morgan C mouthpiece I immediately knew that it was a keeper.
Ralph Morgan has a remarkable knowledge of woodwinds and mouthpiece design. I've had a number of phone conversations with him and he has been extremely helpful to me. Besides clarinet I play several vintage saxophones. It can be a challenge to find mouthpieces that work well on pre-1930 horns. I recently acquired a stunning 1928 Buescher soprano saxophone. It's tone is wonderfully large, dark, and robust. However, when I used a modern soprano mouthpiece on it the pitch was a half step flat in mid-range. In talking with Ralph about it he immediately understood the problem. Simply put, the modern soprano mouthpiece did not have enough chamber volume for this horn. Ralph is currently making a large chamber soprano mouthpiece for me that should solve the intonation problem.
The differences between using a C and Bb mouthpiece on a C clarinet are nowhere as severe as what I experienced on soprano sax. However, I definitely noticed obvious and more subtle improvements when I switched to a real C clarinet mouthpiece.
Hope this helps.
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