 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fizz
Date: 1999-06-24 17:21
Hi!
Some basic advice from those in the know would be welcome!
I hope to start learning to play the clarinet soon, and have been offered a Potter and Co 1920s clarinet - simple system.
Can you advise - would this be suitable for a beginner?
Is the fingering system very different from a modern instrument?
It's in vgc and is UKP 50. Should I buy, or save my pennies for a bit longer?
All opinions gratefully received.
TIA
Fizz
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-24 18:04
1. There were several simple systems. Which one is it? Fingering charts and teachers are sometimes difficult to find.
2. Is this horn in Low Pitch (i.e. modern pitch) or High Pitch or some other pitch standard? Unless it is Low Pitch, you could play for your own pleasure but not with others.
3. Some things are difficult to play on these instruments with fewer keys, which is why the key systems kept developing and why the simple systems eventually disappeared. The Boehm system has been around for over 100 years but the simple systems did run concurrently with it for quite some time.
4. Many repair technicians don't want to bother with these so keeping it well maintained could be a problem.
I would advise getting a horn with the modern system of fingering. You can get a brand new Bundy or Vito (both beginner grade instruments) for under $400 via mail order. You can often find them used for well under $100 at yard sales, etc. If you look around, you can get used wooden intermediate instruments for between $150 and $250. Used professional instruments can be found for between $600 and $1000.
Older horns like the one you describe are often nice instruments. However, it is my opinion that these days that these are more for collecting and to play occasionally just for fun by a collector. For some one who wants to learn to play today, the modern Boehm system is a much better choice and reasonably priced used instruments are available.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-06-24 18:15
Also, does vgc mean vintage condition, and does UKP 50 mean L 50 [about $80] ? If it is an Albert-Muller system, I'd say save your money to buy a good Boehm. Read about the various systems in Brymer and Lawson "Clarinets" [and others] for expert advice. Good luck, Don
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Author: STuart
Date: 1999-06-24 20:24
If you can get a vintage horn for 50 pounds buy it!! I envy you! I don't understand what would keep from playing with other people no matter what key of system the thing is in. Learning to transpose isn't too hard and if you rally want to play music you should learn by ear. Simple system clarinets have neat features that can enable you to do a lot of different things with microtones, trills, multiphonics, etc.
Maybe you'd have a tougher time getting a group and lessons together to play the Mozart quintet, but a whole other world could be opened up to you by experimenting a little!! The rules of music are so diverse! Plus, you can invent your own! All great musicians do this to different degrees. There's NO reason you can't to.
Good Luck! Enjoy! If you don't want it , I DO!
- Stuart
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-24 21:22
STuart wrote:
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If you can get a vintage horn for 50 pounds buy it!! I envy you! I don't understand what would keep from playing with other people no matter what key of system the thing is in. Learning to transpose isn't too hard and if you rally want to play music you should learn by ear. Simple system clarinets have neat features that can enable you to do a lot of different things with microtones, trills, multiphonics, etc.....
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We are not telling this individual not to buy it but simply making sure that he is fully informed so that he can make a decision that suits his musical goals.
Also my warning was about PITCH standard not key. If it was built to be in tune at A=456 rather than today's A=440, you can not tune the instrument to a modern group. You will be approximately 1/4 tone off from modern tuning. For example a Bb clarinet built to A=456, would sound not a Bb when you finger a C but a note half way between Bb and B. An A clarinet would sound a note halfway between A and Bb. And a C clarinet in high pitch would sound a note halfway between C and C#. Although you could pull the joints to get some of the notes cloes to modern tuning, most of the notes would be too far off to lip down or up.
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Author: STuart
Date: 1999-06-24 23:32
OH! I get it. I'm definitely new to this intonation thing.
I completely misunderstood you. So, why would be easier to deal with a low pitched clarinet instead of a high one?
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Author: Joris van den Berg
Date: 1999-06-25 00:38
because all modern instruments are at the lower pitch, so its not lower than the rest, but lower than very old instruments nobody plays anymore today
lower means in tune in this context
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-25 03:12
STuart wrote:
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OH! I get it. I'm definitely new to this intonation thing.
I completely misunderstood you. So, why would be easier to deal with a low pitched clarinet instead of a high one?
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Instruments marked Low Pitch or LP conform to the same standard as instruments built today so it is quite practical to play in tune with them. High Pitch is just too far off to be solved by pulling the joints. There was a period when Low Pitch and High Pitch were both common and so instruments were usually marked as to which way they were built.
Once the Low Pitch standard was formally adopted by an international governing body (sorry but I forget the name of it) in the late 1930s, the practice of marking the instrument died out as it became unnecessary.
Actually there have been many different standards (A = xxx) throughout the centuries not just two. Sometimes even neighboring cities varied signficantly from each other. You would need to have your horn built by your local instrument maker to play in your local band!
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 1999-06-25 06:54
If you're talking of the 'german system', the minimum recommended is a "17 keys clarinet" (an instrument like that I learned clarinet). As the method how the keys are counted are not absolutely clear, hear an exact listing.
16 holes closed by pads, 7 open finger holes
ring keys for left hand index and middle finger as well as for right hand middle and ring finger
left hand thumb: hole plus 1 key (speaker key)
index finger: 1 hole with ring, 2 keys (a' and ab')
middle finger: 1 hole with ring
ring finger: 1 key (eb'/bb'')
little finger upper joint: 1 key (c#'/g#''), usually with an extention to trill with the right hand index finger, too
little finger lower joint: 2 keys (f#/c#'' and e/b') with rollers, plus (the most rarely used key) an 'elavated' lever which opens the ab/eb'' key, optionally made to open the bb/f'' key. If this lever is ommited, it's no hint to play the instrument.
right hand index finger upper joint: 3 trill keys (c'', f', eb'/bb'') plus the extension listed for the "left hand little finger upper joint"
index finger lower joint: 1 open hole only
middle finger: hole with ring only
ring finger: hole with ring, 1 key (bb/f'')
little finger: 2 keys (f/c'' and ab/eb'') with rollers
Both the e/b' and the f/c'' key close a special hole to produce a "forked" resp. "cross fingered" f#/c#'' when only the e/b' key is actuated but not the f/c'' key.
One famous clarinet method is the one by Baermann (not for the very beginners) - I still play the finger studies and some pieces of this book, too.
I hope, this information will help
Arnold, the basset hornist
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 1999-06-25 07:35
My advice is:- if you want an instrument just for your own amusement then it won't matter if it's Albert[Simple], German or Boehm System, high pitch or low pitch.
If you are considering a concert career then the norm is Boehm System.
For jazz then,[which is what I play]Boehm or Albert system will do. One school of thought has it that the Albert system has distinctive tonal differences when compared to Boehm. I have played on a 'simple' system with 12 keys and now I use an 'Albert' system with 13 keys and rollers and a new [circa 1918] model Buffet with 14 keys and rollers. I have also experimented with the German system [mine had 17 keys and rollers] but I had serious intonation problems and sold it - to buy the Buffet actually!
If you are serious about playing in a group then you will definitely need a low pitch instrument.
Good Luck
[ps] I don't really want to buy in to an argument regarding tone quality Albet vs Boehm, but I'm interested in opinions though. I'm actually sitting on the fence in this instance. The major reason I play an Albert system is that I did'nt know of any difference when I started out - I'm mainly self taught. It's the hard road, but I have no regrets.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-25 12:34
John Kelly - Australia wrote:
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My advice is:- if you want an instrument just for your own amusement then it won't matter if it's Albert[Simple], German or Boehm System, high pitch or low pitch...[snip]...The major reason I play an Albert system is that I did'nt know of any difference when I started out - I'm mainly self taught. It's the hard road, but I have no regrets.
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There is one big problem though with Albert and other simple systems. If they break, there are NO repair parts (other than pads and springs) available as these are no longer made. If a key breaks and can't be soldered, you have no horn. Then you must begin the long search for a replacement instrument. Or if you are rich you could have an instrument custom made. Unless you get lucky (and you might), any old Albert or simple system that you buy will need a complete overhaul to play well. If you can find a technician who will bother with it, you will spend over $100 to get it playable after purchasing.
When used Boehm instruments are available at such reasonable prices, why handicap yourself with these instruments. If you have an old one and it breaks and you can't get parts, it's easy to get another old Boehm or a new student one quite inexpensively. Leave the Alberts and simple sytem to the collectors and other people who just want to own a little history (I'm not a collector but do own three just for fun).
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 1999-06-25 16:13
Another consideration is that if you learn to play a Boehm system instrument and later decide to get a better instrument, there are plenty of high quality new and used instruments available. Or, if you ever want to play another member of the clarinet family, such as a bass clarinet, the Boehm system instruments are readily available. I wouldn't have the first clue as to where to find an Albert system bass clarinet.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-06-25 16:35
Nor do I wish to argue merits of the two. HOWEVER,! may I suggest that the B's use of fork fingerings for B/F# and bottom-of-staff F# and poor location-size tone holes for mid-staff Bb and C#/G# are it's greatest shortcomings, only partially accommodated by additional keying. Any comments?
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Author: STuart
Date: 1999-06-25 20:21
I'm dying to try one of these simple system dealies!!
I've rarely found a horn I didn't like for something.
Where can I find one. Please don't say e-bay again, I can't imagine buying an unseen horn.
Thanks!
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-25 21:18
So you too want a little piece of history!
You may occasionally find simple system or Albert system or other odd clarinets in some of these places.
1. Estate auctions (watch the newspapers).
2. Antique shops
3. Flea markets
4. Pawn shops
5. Newspaper ads
6. Instrument shops (but unlikely)
Nothing wrong with buying off eBay if you ask enough questions, bid low, and expect that you will have to overhaul it no matter what the seller says (some think if they hoot an open G that it's in playing condition). Just avoid anything with missing or broken keys. While you could probably find some one to custom make a key, that's probably more effort than most people want to put into it. A lot of the mouthpieces are chipped but that's no big deal as they will play fine with a modern mouthpiece. Matching a mouthpiece to the instrument is no worse than with modern clarinets.
For the Albert system, a fingering chart can be obtained by buying the Rubank Elementary Method book. The chart that comes with it shows Albert system on one side and Boehm on the other. Note however that their other method books do NOT show the Albert system.
The Albert system did have some variations. Some of "better" or "newer" ones have rollers on the keys that are operated by the little fingers. To improve tuning, some have one or more rings that operate small auxiliary pads to get better pitch on certain notes.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-06-25 21:34
Albert system basses do occasionally turn up. I saw an old Conn Albert system bass, probably pre-WWI, at a flea market this year. Alas, the upper stack was horribly cracked. It had really gone "sproing!" The crack had opened way up, with the shape of the wood so distorted that the damage looked unrepairable. Made me sick to walk away, but I didn't have a spare $650 lying around to spend on that kind of trouble, so I passed it up.
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Author: Joanne
Date: 1999-06-26 00:56
Dee wrote:
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A lot of the mouthpieces are chipped but that's no big deal as they will play fine with a modern mouthpiece. Matching a mouthpiece to the instrument is no worse than with modern clarinets.
Not necessarily - my Albert system horn has a narrow bore so doesn't fit a modern mouthpiece.
The wooden mouthpiece that came with the instrument has a particularly close facing - I can just start to get a sound with a #5 reed, and a very relaxed embouchure! Is this typical of older instruments??
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 1999-06-26 04:55
Re repairs and overhauls to Albert/Simple: I have had no problems over the years even at this end of the earth - you just need to know where to go. In my home town I have at least two dealers who are willing to work on my instruments.
You should try the following Web address for dealers in the USA and elswhere: http://www/windworld.com/guide/dealers.html
At least two of the US suppliers are Albert system dealers: try Hohlakis [Ohio] and Snyder [Missouri]. I have spoken to these people in the last year and they seemed quite helpful.
As for cost - it's all relative - I paid $350 for a thorough overhaul of one of my instruments recently and expect to do so in another few years. If you own a car you need regular servicing, clarinets are no different.
Boehms are more plentiful in the USA but in Europe the German/Albert systems are used very widely so I don't think [in the long run] it matters just what system you play. There are pitch differences from one manufacturer to another, you only have to look at the mail received at this address to see that while one prefers Selmer another swears by Buffet another by Olds [or whatever].
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-26 14:06
Joanne wrote:
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Dee wrote:
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A lot of the mouthpieces are chipped but that's no big deal as they will play fine with a modern mouthpiece. Matching a mouthpiece to the instrument is no worse than with modern clarinets.
Not necessarily - my Albert system horn has a narrow bore so doesn't fit a modern mouthpiece.
The wooden mouthpiece that came with the instrument has a particularly close facing - I can just start to get a sound with a #5 reed, and a very relaxed embouchure! Is this typical of older instruments??
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Sorry about that. Perhaps you have an older one than I do. I have seen a number of clarinets with wooden mouthpieces in museums but they were generally from the 1800s while mine are from the 1900s. All of my Alberts are from the time period when they specifically marked the instruments themselves as Low Pitch or High Pitch so that would probably place them between 1890 and 1930 or so. Two of my clarinets are made entirely of hard rubber, not just the mouthpieces.
I suspect that you would have the same problem with the older Boehm instruments. The other day I came across the information that the Boehm system is just as old as the Albert but was less common. The Boehm system only really succeeded in displacing the Albert system in the early 1900s.
Also there were a number of simple systems so Albert is not really synonymous with simple system. Nor is it quite synonymous with German system as the Albert continued to be developed with more keys and became the Oehler (or German) system.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-26 14:19
In my other post, I suggested that your instrument could be older but have thought of another possibility. Perhaps yours takes the narrower German mouthpiece? Where and when was it made? Mine are all US made Albert system instruments.
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Author: Joanne
Date: 1999-06-26 18:18
I wish I knew when & where my instrument was made! It has no markings of any kind. It is high pitch. I've seen a few with identical keywork on ebay - a Buffet, a Lefevre(?) and also a very similar Italian made one (Item #121179146). It has the wrap-around register key with a post mounted on the top, 2 rings for the right hand, no roller keys, 2 right hand trill keys, etc.
Any info you have would be appreciated!
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-27 04:38
With no markings, it is probably impossible to identify. There have been thousands of small clarinet makers over the decades. Sometimes they bought their keywork from the same places or bought it from the larger firms. So even differences in key shapes don't really help with no marks on the clarinet.
Also the wrap around register key was quite popular and was used on both Albert and Boehm systems by many makers. For whatever reason, it has been replaced by the style we are familiar with today.
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 1999-06-28 07:52
Joanne wrote:
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...
Not necessarily - my Albert system horn has a narrow bore so doesn't fit a modern mouthpiece.
The wooden mouthpiece that came with the instrument has a particularly close facing - I can just start to get a sound with a #5 reed, and a very relaxed embouchure! Is this typical of older instruments??
-> No, but this is typical for 'austrian' lays.
Todays german (and austrian) style mouthpieces end with a bore diameter of approx. 15 mm at the tenon. Thus you may have to put an insert into the mouthpiece bore of a new mouthpiece (or oder it with a smaller bore directly from the manufacturer, in case the process is not highly automated).
The german lays (and still more the austrian types) are longer and have less tip opening (one austrian type e.g. is 0.75 mm * 33 mm) - this generally requires reeds with a longer cut but more thickness at the tip. There exist special reed, e.g. Vandoren's "Black Master" (strength numbered from 2 to 5++), but I do not know where to get a 'mixed box' of this reeds.
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