 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kenny Tysor
Date: 1999-05-18 23:20
Right now I'm playing on a Buffet E-11 clarinet, I'm 8th in the state of N.C. but I want to start playing sax for jazz band. I've had a couple different people tell me lot's of different things about saxs', I want to get a nice sax. I was looking at a guerdala. What price range should I be looking for? What type of sax should I be looking for?
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-05-19 01:09
Kenny Tysor wrote:
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Right now I'm playing on a Buffet E-11 clarinet, I'm 8th in the state of N.C. but I want to start playing sax for jazz band. I've had a couple different people tell me lot's of different things about saxs', I want to get a nice sax. I was looking at a guerdala. What price range should I be looking for? What type of sax should I be looking for?
All this is dependant on what you are looking for. If you're looking for a new sax, basically the mail order companies have all your possible options. So you can decide how much you want to spend and take a look. The four main brands most people play are Selmers (big suprise), Keilwerths, Yamahas and Yanis (Yanagisawa). I'm afraid i don't really know anything specific about the Gaurdala models.
Keilwerths are most often for jazz, i've rarely seen a classical sax player using one. And most often i see the tenor models and rarely the others. They're a bit cheaper than Selmer's new models.
Selmers and Yanis both are very good saxes. I don't care for the modern Selmers though. I prefer an good, early Mark VII (like mine) or before. A new Selmer will run over $3000. Yanis are a little more than Selmers. But i like their workmanship and sound better.
As for Yamaha, i don't care for any of their horns except for their very top custom model. And i really don't care for much but the tenor saxes.
If you're looking for used saxes, you have a few more options.
In the swing era, there was a good competition between Conn and Selmer. Selmer had the Cigar Cutter, Balanced Action (and Super Balanced Action), and the Mark VI. Conn had the 6M, 10M, and some other models which i can't quite recall at the moment. The Conns you can usually get for a much better price than the Selmers, though you'll prolly have to invest a little in some repairs. Pre-Mark VI's you can sometimes find for under $2000 but they might not be in great condition. And Mark VI's in decent condition or better can easily rack up over $3000. For a lesser alternative, still made by Selmer is the Mark VII. I got mine for $1350 and it plays just as good as a Mark VI. Basically, if a Mark VII has engraving, it could be good. If it doesn't, don't even bother.
But for starters, i would suggest you get a cheap used student model from a local store or classifieds ad for the first month or so, then once you start getting a hang of it, get a friend to go horn hunting with you.
A while back i found a good wensite or two on sax models and stuff... i'll have to go hunt for them again and i'll be back with them shortly...
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Author: J.Butler
Date: 1999-05-19 02:43
If you want a new saxophone you've got to shop around and compare. What is the "right" sound and feel for one person may or maybe not what you want. I am really (from a tech standpoint) really impressed with the Yanigasawas. Try them out if you have the $ for a good upscale instrument. However, there are the Selmers and Keilworths. Also there are some good buys on used instruments. I've always liked the King Zephyr and the SML instruments. Back in the early '70s I almost traded my MKVI for a SML, it really was that good. Shop around and play lots of horns. You'll find one you like soon enough.
J. Butler
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-05-19 03:40
Daniel wrote:
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Selmers and Yanis both are very good saxes. I don't care for the modern Selmers though. I prefer an good, early Mark VII (like mine) or before. A new Selmer will run over $3000. Yanis are a little more than Selmers. But i like their workmanship and sound better.
Typo... Yanis are a good deal LESS than Selmers... not more..
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-05-19 04:26
1.As to price ranges, you can see them at http://www.wwandbw.com/pdf/sa_idx.htm
Note Selmer's prices are not shown since they dislike to be shown in any catalogues.
2.My Selmer SA80/II Alto(laquerer) was about 2300$.
3.There is a Selmer look alike,Roxy.Their prices are about half of the Selmers.
4.Looking at my Muncy's catalogue,
BUffet Evette Alto is 729$.Keilworth(German mfgr) 2519$.
5.Big cautions:New Saxes are generally very airy,and need pads adjustments by skilled craftmans at the shops(especially Selmer Serie III is notorious,although they are good after pad adjusments.) You should buy a new one from dependable shops!
6.Used Selmer Mark VIs are more expensive than new Selmer SA80/II or Serie IIIs.
7.My own recommendations(maynot be general ones):
1)Forget old Yanagisawas and Yamahas.Their initial models
have many structural defects.
2)Forget Selmer VIIs.There is a rumour that they started
sell these after VIs to counter low priced and good
competitors.
3)Forget Selmer SA80:initial model of SA80/IIs.
8.My understanding is Buffets top line saxes used to be designed by Peter Ponzol.I do not know Evettes are.
How about ask Muncy whether they check Buffet Evette before shipping and whether they have student discouts(Some shops do have those policies!) or any recommendations? Their tel is 1-800-333-6415.
p.s. As to reeds choices there are two big names.Hemke and Vandoren V16 for Juzz.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-05-19 04:26
1.As to price ranges, you can see them at http://www.wwandbw.com/pdf/sa_idx.htm
Note Selmer's prices are not shown since they dislike to be shown in any catalogues.
2.My Selmer SA80/II Alto(laquerer) was about 2300$.
3.There is a Selmer look alike,Roxy.Their prices are about half of the Selmers.
4.Looking at my Muncy's catalogue,
BUffet Evette Alto is 729$.Keilworth(German mfgr) 2519$.
5.Big cautions:New Saxes are generally very airy,and need pads adjustments by skilled craftmans at the shops(especially Selmer Serie III is notorious,although they are good after pad adjusments.) You should buy a new one from dependable shops!
6.Used Selmer Mark VIs are more expensive than new Selmer SA80/II or Serie IIIs.
7.My own recommendations(maynot be general ones):
1)Forget old Yanagisawas and Yamahas.Their initial models
have many structural defects.
2)Forget Selmer VIIs.There is a rumour that they started
sell these after VIs to counter low priced and good
competitors.
3)Forget Selmer SA80:initial model of SA80/IIs.
8.My understanding is Buffets top line saxes used to be designed by Peter Ponzol.I do not know Evettes are.
How about ask Muncy whether they check Buffet Evette before shipping and whether they have student discouts(Some shops do have those policies!) or any recommendations? Their tel is 1-800-333-6415.
p.s. As to reeds choices there are two big names.Hemke and Vandoren V16 for Juzz.
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Author: Evan
Date: 1999-05-19 04:46
The greatest tenor ever made is the mark VI vy selmer. The reason they are so godd is they all sound different, but they all sound great. New saxes all sound alike but they sound good. Yanis are a very bright sounding horn, selmer are darker and Yamahas are variable. I have heard a couple people around town who have played a VI for years are swithxhing to Yamahas top of the line. For a beginer, I would sugest a beginer or intermediate horn. For beginer horns all the brands play alike and last the same amount of time. Whatever you do, do not use the stick mouthpeice, Get a real open jazz mouthpeice like a Vandoren, a meyer, or an otto Link
(this is what I play on, with a 7 facing, beatiful)
good luck and remember, the key to jazz is to know your jazz theory and to practice it.
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-05-19 11:53
Kenny,
Based on HS band directors comments in Northern Virginia stay away from alto unless you're really good at improv. There are just too many kids your age playing alto now. Strong tenor players are in high demand around here. However you may find some difficulty at first in switching to the larger mouthpiece.
At any rate, the Yanagisawa 901 is an excellent intermediate model tenor that realistically sells for around two-thousand dollars (Chuck Levin's Washington Music Center). My HS daughter got one a year ago and it plays very well in both concert and jazz band settings. Yani's stock mouthpiece (5) should serve you well for jazz to start with. She is using a C** for concert. Rovner ligatures for both (Eddie Daniels for jazz band). Always remember to try before you buy. We spent two days at WMC playing Selmers, Yamahas, Keils, etc... until deciding upon the Yani.
Best of luck.
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-05-19 12:16
Kenny,
A PostScript to the above. Before spending any money on any sax, new or used, check with the HS band director to find out what his needs are for next year. If he tells you his only bari player is graduating you could offer to take his/her place. The school probably owns a decent horn that you may be able to use over the summer... or you could do a short-term rental thru the local music store. Also, ask the BD if he has any school tenors or altos. You'd be amazed to learn how many Selmer Paris' are tucked away in band room closets.
ATB
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-05-19 19:01
2)Forget Selmer VIIs.There is a rumour that they started
sell these after VIs to counter low priced and good
competitors.
Actually, The early Mark VII's (within the first three years or so) are basically Mark VI's with a few key alignment changes, the bore is basically the same although the metal is much heavier and laquer is thicker. Basically, the VII's with engraving are the ones that can be good, though there were still duds in them, just as their were many dud VI's. If a VII doesn't have ingraving, it's junk.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-05-19 19:01
I have owned, bought-sold, repaired and played-on quite a few alto, tenor and bari's over the years. My best now are MK 6's T and A and a Leblanc Model 100 alto [the special-fingerings model]. The MK6 tenor is outstanding and I remember a King Super 20 fondly. The MK6 alto is somewhat "brighter" than an M6 Conn and a 50's model Martin I had. A word of caution re: bari, if you have small hands, be sure to try it out carefully as I have had "reach" problems on some [also on some tenors], believe Conn was best in that regard. To view some nice ones try Cybersax.com and other sax sites. Don
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-05-19 19:10
Evan wrote:
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The greatest tenor ever made is the mark VI vy selmer. The reason they are so godd is they all sound different, but they all sound great. New saxes all sound alike but they sound good. Yanis are a very bright sounding horn, selmer are darker and Yamahas are variable. I have heard a couple people around town who have played a VI for years are swithxhing to Yamahas top of the line. For a beginer, I would sugest a beginer or intermediate horn. For beginer horns all the brands play alike and last the same amount of time. Whatever you do, do not use the stick mouthpeice, Get a real open jazz mouthpeice like a Vandoren, a meyer, or an otto Link
(this is what I play on, with a 7 facing, beatiful)
good luck and remember, the key to jazz is to know your jazz theory and to practice it.
Actually, the Meyer mouthpieces are more of a commercial mouthpiece, not really jazz. I personally hate the new Meyers and Links. The Meyer Brothers mouthpieces are the best, but they go for the same price range as old Kaspar clarinet mouthpieces. But the slightly later Meyer mouthpieces are almost as good. The new ones are simply copies made from cheap rubber (actually, they feel and look more like pastic). But for clarinet players, Meyers work good. Not to out there but not too legit like an old Selmer Soloist or somthing.
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-05-19 19:57
Recommendations from an instructor who has seen a lot of student saxes:
If you're looking for an inexpensive new student horn stay away from Vito and Bundy (Leblanc and Selmer made, respectively). These horns are notoriously poorly made and will not withstand normal use for more than a couple of years. I hate to bash brands, but this has been my experience. A well-made student horn is the Yamaha, though admittedly, they have had some quality control problems - especially with the finish.
Intermediate horns: personally, I'd look for a good vintage pro horn to get a better bang for your buck. I play a 1937 Conn 10M tenor - big tone but I do have to work at the intonation (just the nature of the beast).
Pro horns: I have no experience in this area but I've heard really good things about Selmers and Yani's. I tend to save my big bucks for pro clarinets and stick to lower priced saxes (a new Yamaha YBS52 baritone is arriving tomorrow
If you end up purchasing a student or intermediate new horn, save some money for a really good mouthpiece. I've found that the mpc make a MUCH larger difference on sax tone than it does on clarinet. Sax mpc's come a much larger variety of designs than clarinet mpc's do so you really need to have a good idea of what sound you are after before you search for a mpc. If you want a decent middle-of-the road sound good for a large variety of styles, you can't go wrong with a Selmer C*. For Jazz (and after you've mastered the sax embouchure), try some metal mpc's - my favorite are the not-so-popular Brilhart LevelAir series. Since I rarely play classical on sax (except some shows in the pit), I have no idea what a good classical mpc is but, as with clarinet, be safe and stick with a medium lay and medium tip openning.
Kevin Bowman
Clarinet and Saxophone Instructor,
Rochester Conservatory of Music, Rochester, MI
and
Saxophones, Clarinet, and Keys,
B-Side Blues Project (www.bsideblues.com)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-05-19 20:34
Very true re: mp's, if you are not soloing the Selmer C* and D will help you to blend with others. The older Meyer I have is not bad, it speaks! Dont like any metals I've tried.
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 1999-05-21 15:18
I beg to differ with Evan regarding the greatness of the Selmer Mark VI saxes. Waaaaay back in 1980, when I was in the market for a professional-grade tenor, I went to the shop of a good friend who was a repairman and (at the time) a dealer of used Selmers and new H. Coufs (made by Keilwerth). He was also himself a very fine saxophonist. He had me try nine (yes, 9!) different Mark VIs, and one Couf Superba II. I played them while he listened (behind a screen so that he couldn't see what horn I was playing on), then he played them all behind the screen while I listened. WE BOTH PICKED THE COUF/KEILWERTH as the best-sounding horn. I bought it, and 19 years later I'm still playing it and loving it. Now in hindsight, with the Mark VI being a 'collector's item' and worth a lot of money, i suppose I should have bought it. But to say that "all Mark VIs play great" is a bunch of bull. Just my humble opinion.
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 1999-05-21 15:22
Kevin,
You like Yamaha student horns but not the Vito, however, it's my understanding that the Yamaha student sax is actually a Vito stencil, and is therefore essentially the same instrument. Is this not true?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-05-21 16:12
Dave Spiegelthal wrote:
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Kevin,
You like Yamaha student horns but not the Vito, however, it's my understanding that the Yamaha student sax is actually a Vito stencil, and is therefore essentially the same instrument. Is this not true?
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Not true. I saw all the Yamaha saxes being assembled at the factory in Grand Rapids, MI - not just the pro line. In fact, I don't believe any Yamahas are stencils. In the percussion dept. they bought an existing company to produce the tympani and xylophone/marimba line, so it's not a strict stencil even there.
The intermediate/student grade clarinets from Yamaha have parts produced in Japan and assembled here; the pro line is totally produced in Japan.
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-05-22 01:01
Speaking of stencils... My daughter pulls her WW&BW curved soprano out of the case at the music store (mpc shopping) and the guy (pro sax player) says... So that's a Yanagisawa! I tell him it's actually a Vito with the WW&BW engraving... and then her band director picks her (tenor II), over the lead alto player with the straight Selmer Paris, to play the sop part in Metheny's "Have You Heard." Go figure.
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Author: Mike
Date: 1999-05-24 05:39
Vito's are actualy three different models (currently). They sell one made by themselves, one made by Yamaha and one made by KHS(Jupiter). Hope that helps- there are some slight design differences in the Vito/Jupiter and the Vito/Yamaha though in my humble opinion they are negligible and mostly decorative.
Mike
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-05-24 12:28
Mike wrote:
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Vito's are actualy three different models (currently). They sell one made by themselves, one made by Yamaha and one made by KHS(Jupiter). Hope that helps- there are some slight design differences in the Vito/Jupiter and the Vito/Yamaha though in my humble opinion they are negligible and mostly decorative.
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Please site your proof. As far as anything that I have seen indicates that all Vitos except for the VSP are made in Kenosha, Wisconsin by Leblanc. The Vito VSP is made by Leblanc in a factory in France.
Mike
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-05-25 00:56
Don't know about other models, but the 7136CS (curved soprano) is made in Taiwan. At least that's what one of the sax guys at BB&WW and a salesman at MARS has told me. It's the same plant that makes the Yanagisawa curved sop and the WW&BW sop. Rumor has it that the Yamaha curved is also made there. Looking at the LeBlanc catalog one cannot see any difference between the Vito and the WW&BW. Even the rollers are pewter on both. And the keywork is true Selmer. Another hint that the Taiwanese know what they're doing!
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