 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2001-09-04 21:46
Thanks for the info on Twigg reeds....
Another question....where can I get the gold crayon/paint or whatever it is to
redo the engraved emblems on my clarinets?
John
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Author: Dan Borlawsky
Date: 2001-09-04 22:21
John, it's a crayon, and should be available from Ferree's or any other supplier of instrument repair items.
-- Dan
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-09-04 22:38
I also use a product called "Rub 'n Buff" available at craft supply stores. This is a very heavy paint in a small tube which should be rubbed out just before the paint on the clarinet logo is totally dry. If you get gold color from either a crayon or this product in the grain of the wood around the logo, you may have to use a black crayon to cover into the grain outside the trademark. Rub 'n Buff's "Grecian Gold" or "Gold Leaf" both work well for trademarks.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-09-05 06:01
Hiroshi -
How do you apply nail color? I've thought of trying some kind of paint by using a large needle or a very fine pointed brush to put it on. My first idea was to use spar varnish and bronze powder because of the slower drying time. I haven't done anything yet. I've only been thinking about it.
- ron b -
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-09-05 07:15
Ron
Nail color comes with a small brush with stick. I applied a gold nail color on my golf Iron logos. It worked. There may be a nail color preparation liquid on which a nail color is applied and bonded. (I am not sure. Does any womankind know? )
Another sure idea is to look for plastic toy shops those special paints to paint plastic toys.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-09-05 15:43
Hiroshi -
Thank you for your information. I plan to try your suggestion of using plastic toy model paint. I also plan to try varnish and bronze powder and post the comparison results here.
I'll ask some ladies for their expert advice about nail polish bonding before trying that. It may be very durable. How long a time has it been on your golf irons?
I intend to color logos of plastic horns first, not wood. I have some plastic scraps to try it on before doing a good instrument. If the result is good I may try carefully doing a wood instrument.
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-06 09:13
A gold marker is also available.
I don't usually bother because if gold gets into the grain around the logo then it looks as tacky as lipstick overflowing outside the lips. I haven't tried Douglas's black crayon.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2001-09-06 15:04
The brush that comes with nail polish is much too big to get enough precision- unless you give it a haircut. I've refrained from doing anything to my logos for the same reason as Gordon.
Hiroshi- I'm hardly the nail polish expert (my violin makes me keep my nails short) but my friend of the 90 bottles of nail polish informs me that sometimes it's good to put a clear coat on first for durability. It's not totally neceassary, though, and I don't know if that applies to clarinets.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-09-06 16:44
Micaela -
I tend to agree with you about nail polish, although I haven't tried it. The usual nail polish brushes I've seen are unsuitable for the purpose we're discussing here. Nail polish, I'm guessing here, seems to have a pretty fast set up time. It works well for securing fly-fishing lure thread. I think we need better accuracy than that. Maybe it would be a good choice for someone who works fast. Don't know.
I had in mind using a fine artist's brush and a strong magnifying lens. There are some good quality synthetic ('soft' bristle) brushes available these days. Initially, I intend to use something that will bond with plastic such as Hiroshi's suggestion of plastic-model paint - if there's something with a slow enough, half hour or so, drying time. Later, to do a wood horn, my intention is to use varnish and linseed oil with bronze powder applied with a suitably sized needle. My idea is not original, except maybe the 'needle concept'.
I do not favor acrylic paint; its drying time is pretty fast and it tends to peel or rub easily off a smooth surface. The idea is to use something with at least as good (or better) durability as the original factory imprint. I'm guessing, but factory logos appear to me to be hot embossed foil - similar to that used for the printer's gold foil book covers, etc., embossing process - which cannot ordinarily be done at home by the do-it-yourselfer :|
- ron b -
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-07 02:22
My wife is a China Painter, she has a Bachelors & Masters in Art. China Painting is a VERY _fine_ thing. Kerry has a 'doctorate" in brushes. Anyway, I ran this by her & she chuckled. Translation: Good luck with the idea, BUT ..... no way.
NOW, I have never had a problem with the specialty crayons. 1 crayon should last a very long time. The most dificult horns to GILD are those where the impression is worn ... basically gone [that is, it's lost it's DEPTH ].
Stick to the EXACT areas with the correct crayon (yes, Buffet & Selmer, for example, recommend a specific color # ). I have used oil & the Doctor's cork grease to successfully ameliorate the effects of "graining" away from the target area.
best,
mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-07 13:51
Ron B: If you are using powder I wonder if it would work tapping it out of the end of a fine hypodermic needle.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-09-07 15:15
Gordon - That's a good suggestion.
I don't think powdered metal is anywhere near as fine as pigment. Maybe a large hypodermic needle but, hmmm, it's worth some investigation. My idea is to thin the powder/medium mixture thin enough that it flows readily. Maybe a veterinarian has something large enough.
MW - I have a doctorate in rubber cement :| (LOL) That doesn't compare with one in brushes! I'm not THAT sophisticated :[
Your wife may be entirely correct. But, I'll never know unless I give it a go :] I haven't tried any of these methods before for what we're discussing here. I have used the bronze/varnish for signs and decorative embellishment but never anything this 'fine'. Maybe we'll come with a new definition of Fine Art.
Better quit before I step in some more of it :
- ron b -
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-07 15:20
By all means, be (her) guest, I was just sharing the comments of an expert. mw
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-09-07 21:41
Mark,
I appreciate your wife, Kerry, sharing her comments.
What does your wife use for gold for China Painting? I suppose whatever it is has to stand a lot of heat treating? I've always admired, as I'm sure most of us do, fine hand painted china but have extremely limited understanding of how it's done. Just curious whether that sort of technique, sans high heat of course, would somehow be applicable to this horn logo project. The main concern I have with some logos is just what you describe, the impression is so worn it has nearly disappeared. I don't think I want to bother with those (student horns). Not really worth the effort. Intermediate models (prices) might be enhanced by the extra time spent making them look pretty.
I plan to attempt a Bundy 577 tomorrow. Have one I'm repadding that has a nice deep logo impression. I'll post the result after it ""happens"". Kerry may roar laughing at that. On the other hand, it may end up a nice free form art innovation to capture the art world's thirsty imagination :] :] possibly something that will cause clarinettists to flock to take up the bass fiddle, forever disassociating themselves with anything so horrid as a Ron B special. At best it will look acceptable. At worst, it could fail altogether and I add a crayon to my next order request at Ferree's.
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-08 11:09
Another suggestion. Again, use a hypodermic needle, perhaps with the tapered end groud off. Use the needle without the syringe. Dip it in the paint or liquid gold anything. The liquid should run up the tube by capillary action. Then use the tip of the needle like a fine pen nib, i.e. it is equivalent to a throw-away draftsman's pen.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-08 20:53
Ron, I don't do art, so I can't speak for her china painting. I CAN tell you that a horn with a DEEP (logo/trademark) impression will work GREAT with a crayon. I would practice on with a broken joint or badly cracked bell. But if that's the worst horn you have to play around with, be my guest. : )
BTW: We haven't talked much about HOW cleaning the excess crayon (or whatever you are coloring with) ... I have started using PAPER DINNER NAPKINS (the nicer/smoother quality napkins, not the rough-finish type) ... they seem to pick excess material OFF & at the same time does NOT shred. It does a better job than cotton or other cloth which tend to absorb so much and _push_ the coloring material BACK into the grain.
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-09 00:57
PS I got the latter idea from my wife who used to use FACIAL TISSUE with her charcoal drawings (to remove excess) & said it should work better than cloth. mw
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Author: Grover
Date: 2001-09-10 14:07
I've done this a few times with the Ferree's gold crayon. The best results are gotten from the densest wood with the finest grain. Also, the depth of the logo stamping make a big difference. I find that the Buffet clarinets, for example, from the early 70's tend to be very lightly stamped, and are terrible subjects for this kind of restoration. Older Buffet's from the fifties and early sixties seem to have much deeper logo's and really dense wood and are great subjects.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-10 19:34
Grover said:
"The best results are gotten from the densest wood with the finest grain."
---------------------------------------
I am not a woodworking expert. My only experience to speak of has come with Clarinets. To me a DENSE wood, is moving towards (little or) NO GRAIN. Is that what you are saying?
I have had MANY problems with Older Buffets and the Crayon getting into OPEN grainy areas. You end up with a "HALO EFFECT" on the surface area being worked. That is the major complaint here by others, I think. The older wood has lovely grain lines, too.
On the other hand, I have worked several Yamaha Logo's that were 1. dyed somewhat heavily 2. had nice, deep impressions 3. did not have much grain .... results were magnificent. That's why I think it's depth of the Logo IMPRESSION, not other factors like grain to any extent, which create (IMO) problems.
Someone once told me it was Open Grain vs. Closed Grain? NO DOUBT, the description of (wood) Grain confuses me!
mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-11 15:03
Whatever the terminology, it is the timber with crayon-collecting depressions (tubules for once carrying sap - opened by the machining of the timber, and looking like short splits), around the logo that is problem. This non-smooth surface is more familiar in Oak timber. With these depressions and a very shallow logo the result is sure to be a mess. Don't even bother. A clean cut, deep logo on timber that is very smooth is easy to re-gold.
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