 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Keil
Date: 2001-08-16 20:34
This clarinet is mostly used for Mozart's Clarinet Concerto in A K.622. I'm sure there are other things it's used for but that's the one thing that stands out in my mind right now...
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-16 20:42
It's hard to be certain, but from the picture of the basset cl. for sale on ebay, it doesn't look like it has a left hand Eb/Ab key. This is a major design flaw for any clarinet with a range to low Eb or lower. For this reason alone I would stay away from this particular instrument.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-16 20:50
A basset clarinet is a soprano clarinet in A that has an extended range down to C3 (based on the nomenclature identified at the top of this bulletin board).
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Author: William
Date: 2001-08-16 21:22
I disagree with Mr. Small's assessment. You are looking at a Buffet instrument--a top of the line clarinet. You can be assured that this is a well built, quality instrument from one of the most pretiquious clarinet companies in existance today. But, try before you buy--those basset clarinets havve a different "feel" to them when played. Good luck!!!!!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-08-16 21:31
The lowest key on the upper row for the right little finger gives low D. As I recall, there's also a low D key for the left little finger just below and outside of the F/C key. The low Db and C are operated by keys for the right thumb, below the thumb rest.
I've played one of these at the ClarinetFest in Columbus a few years ago, and that particular one, at least, was very stuffy. I imagine the reserve is well over $3,000. If you have the money and want to risk the $50 return fee if you don't like it, it could be worth a shot. I think David Shifrin plays one on his recent recording of the Mozart Quintet with the Emerson Quartet, but he can make anything sound good.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-16 21:42
I agree with R S, it also doesnt have the 7th ring for 3rd finger left nor the artic.C#/G# which a Full Boehm does. I really hadn't considered that a B C [maybe] should be an F B, with the extended range keys also. Perhaps, the Buffet designers figured there would be enough key problems/adjustments with the basset keys by themselves, just look at the set-screws!! Come to think of it, I haven't heard of music for it beyond 622, tho the 3 lower notes would put some G clar music into range, but is there any?? A good friend had a B C when we played "Camelot" and took over one of my bass cl solo passages very well, but in a quite awkward key signature!! He played it well, sight-transposing with no bad notes! Interesting, Don
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Author: Keil
Date: 2001-08-16 22:49
Just because the A clarinet extends down to low C doesn't mean it has to be a full boehm instrument! I'm supporting William's statement!
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Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-08-16 23:44
I'm not going to buy this eBay horn -- yikes, I don't have that kind of cash! I just want to know to what uses a basset clarinet can be put musically. I'd not run across one before.
It looks kind of like a soprano version of a low-C bass clarinet.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-17 01:01
The clarinet is being offered by a great fellow & a very talented Clarinetist affiliated with Eastman -- one of David Weber's former students at Julliard. mw
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-17 05:12
This bassett may be a well made instrument but the absence of a left hand Eb/Ab key (and like I said above, I'm not certain of this but it looks that way in the picture) is still a major design flaw. Without this key it is impossible to go from low Eb up a fourth to Ab or from Ab down a fourth to low Eb. It may be possible to have someone like Charlie Bay or Steven Fox add the Eb/Ab key but I would never spend big bucks (or even small bucks for that matter) on an instrument where certain sequences of notes are impossible to play. As I've said before, any clarinet with a range to low Eb or lower should have a left hand Eb/Ab key.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-08-17 05:46
On bass clarinets that don't have the Eb/Ab key, one can temporize sometimes by clamping the low Eb and low E keys together with one of those strong blue clips for paper bundles. Ravel's Rhapsodie has an exposed Eb to Ab slur where this trick can be done. The low Eb is played on the left side with the low E key and the Ab played on the right side. I don't know how this would work on a soprano clarinet.
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Author: Colleen
Date: 2001-08-17 08:18
I'm not a clarinet player, but I'd like to know what instrument Mr. Small plays.
There's Mendelssohn ConcertstUck (dots over that "U") for clarinet and basset horn, Op 113 and Op 114. (about 18 minutes of music total) I remember wondering while reading the C.D. jacket (Thea King) "what's a basset horn?".
It's a stunning instrument. I'd be tempted to buy it just for curiosity, but alas... I fear that it will become a lamp.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-17 13:45
Re-reading all of the above comments, those of William, Keil and Ken in particular, all of us are delving into a very complex set of decisions re: extent of "extra" keying for special fingering problems on a very expensive clarinet for highly specialized musical performance. In June I had the great pleasure of seeing-hearing David Shifrin play both the Concerto and the Quintet. Even tho sitting "up-close" , I cannot recall the degree of keying on his Basset for the Concerto nor on the "regular" A for the Quintet. If D S, or others know these details, I for one would appreciate this info. I did look in the WW/BW WW catalog of S-S 2001 for "thumb-nail" descriptions of these special cls, pgs 36-7, little help re: B C and BH, but interesting info re: the Low C Bass 's where [on some models] it appears Selmer includes the Artic. C#/G# with the Ab/Eb lever, Buffet shows the Ab/Eb only, and LeBlanc shows the Ab/Eb [by rt hand Fork fingering] {I found it quite satisfactory} only. At these costs however, on special order, I would think the C#/G# could be added. The only other "F B" keying, the fork [left hand] Eb/Bb may be possible, I'm not sure. Others please add [and correct me] in this very interesting thread. I do enjoy these "expanding-the-envelope" discussions. Don
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-08-17 15:29
Don -
On his recent recording of the Mozart Quintet with the Emerson Quartet, David Shifrin uses a basset A clarinet. The Quintet has a few spots where it really needs the low notes -- for example, the ascending arpeggios in the second trio of the third movement and the descending arpeggio in the third variation of the fourth movement.
Steve Fox makes basset extensions for existing A clarinets, and I think for Bb clarinets also. There's a Mozart quintet movement and several fragments that calls for a basset Bb, and I think there are also passages for it in La Clemenza di Tito.
I've seen the quintet movement manuscript, which is in the Morgan Library in New York. It's written in half a dozen colors of ink and half a dozen clefs, as Mozart's joke and challenge to Stadler.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-17 15:57
The basset horn is approximately the size of an alto clarinet and is pitched int the key of F (i.e. one full step higher than the alto). The bore to length ratio is different than that of an alto clarinet so even though it lies in basically the same range, it's not classified as an alto.
Alto clarinets are used in clarinet choirs and wind bands such as your typical high school and community band.
Basset horns are used in orchestral works. However there is only a very limited repertoire that calls for basset horns.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-17 17:21
TKS, Ken, I'm sure you are correct re: Mozart [what a wag!!] and D S's recording of the Q, but unless these old eyes are really shot, he played it on a non-Basset [right here in River City] BUT it might have been a low Eb A OR a low Eb Bb [if either would help], anyway, very few in the audience would have known the diff, myself included, still GREAT, standing ovations on both the Q and C. Also, TKS Dee for your clarifying comments, not all of us are as nutty as I [and maybe a few more] about these greatest cls. As I mentioned before, my Selmer-Paris alto cl is quite a bit smaller bore than the LeBlanc, dont know about the Buffet, so I kid myself that I can approach B H tone quality [dreaming??] . Much fun!! Don
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-17 18:20
Colleen--my main instrument is baritone sax. At least that's what I mostly play on gigs. But my favorite instrument to play for my own enjoyment is low C bass clarinet. Thus my interest in lower pitched clarinets and extended range keywork. I enjoy playing the Bach Cello Suites on the bass clarinet. Also a little jazz.
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Author: Dave Beal
Date: 2001-08-17 18:34
OK, I'm confused. What instrument is Sabine Meyer playing on her EMI recording of the Mozart Concerto? The CD says "basset-horn", but it sounds like it should say basset clarinet.
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Author: Dave Beal
Date: 2001-08-17 18:45
And while we're talking about Sabine Meyer and K. 622, does anyone else think she rushes some of the tongued 16th note passages in the first movement? Just showing off? :-)
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-08-18 19:24
I might be showing my ignorance but there's no question in my mind the Ebay horn in the pic is exactly as advertised, an A Basset "Clarinet" not an F Basset "Horn" or some mutant bass clarinet if anyone suggested differently...a pretty nice looking and well maintained pro-line horn at that. I've never even seen or heard of a straight-designed basset horn, they're generally all made curved and a close cousin in size and tone color to an Eb alto. Also, I wouldn't remotely call it a "design flaw" just because there isn't a left side lower cluster Eb/Ab key; it was designed that way and left off intentionally (Doesn't appear to have one). To be consistent with that view you'd have to declare all Bb clarinets not having the same key a design flaw as well, I think we can give Buffet a little more credit than that...they're auxiliary keys and nothing more. I would agree though the articulated key should've been included. Any clarinet retailing brand new for up to $6K and a specialty instrument in particular should definitely have all the bells and whistles on it.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-18 20:03
The reason the absence of the Eb/Ab key is a major flaw on the basset but not the standard range clarinet is the presence of the low Eb key on the basset. This key is operated by the right hand little finger. If you want to slur from the low Eb up a fourth to Ab, and your horn doesn't have a left hand Eb/Ab key, the only way you can play this sequence of notes is to use the right hand little finger for both the low Eb and the Ab. And in order to execute this move, after playing the low Eb, you have to lift the right little finger off the low Eb key and up and over the right hand C/ F key to the right hand Ab. This is impossible to do while sustaining the sound. If the horn was equipped with a left hand Eb/Ab key you simply play low Eb with the right little finger and Ab with the left little finger. No muss no fuss. I would be very interested in hearing someone from Buffet (or Selmer or Leblanc) attempt to explain why they leave the left hand Eb/Ab key off of some of their instruments with low Ebs. Until I hear this explanation (and I doubt I ever will) I stand by my sttatement: the absence of a left hand Eb/Ab key on any clarinet with a range to low Eb (or lower) is a major design flaw.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-19 00:22
One last thing on this topic: a year or so ago I called up Leblanc to ask them why their alto clarinets didn't have the alt. LH Eb/Ab key and whether it would be possible to special order one with this key. The secretary said she would relay my question to whoever was in charge. They never called back.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-08-19 01:39
Congressman/Senators, insurance companies and lawyers don't return phone calls either when cornering them. Only Buffet can come clean on the issue. I did some quick, unscientific research and went to three popular industry sites but couldn't locate a pic of any another Buffet basset clarinet or even a Selmer. It's possible, although highly unlikely Buffet manufactures a basset clarinet WITH the key and markets it similiar to their premium line horns (Prestige and Festivals versus entry-level R-13s, intermediate/beginner modelsI found a pic of a Leblanc basset clarinet at BW/WW, it was too small at a glance for me to tell so I flew it into Photodraw, enlarged it and it appears to be missing the key also. Fox's site, of course, offers the custom work and acknowledges the need for that key. Here's the advertising blurb from his basset clarinet link:
Standard keywork has the low Eb key for the right hand little finger and the three right thumb keys for D, C#, and C; the touchpieces are shaped to allow very easy transitions between notes. A popular variation is a low D key for the left hand little finger, either an addition to or instead of the thumb key. An alternate Eb/Ab key for the left hand is also available.
I concur, having the ability to slur/negotiate the low Ab/Eb interval is fundamental to the boehm system and there definitely should be a parallel/matching key on the left side, especially considering the fact that all other partials can be slurred using the left and right sides in combination. And that goes for their altos and basset horns as well. Come to think of it, I saw Ricardo Morales perform the Mozart (1998) on a Leblanc A basset clarinet and remember noticing (from the second row) his horn was also missing the left side key. As I stated before and in my opinion I don't consider the missing key a specific design flaw, I'm the suspicious type and believe they intentionally left the key off, a marketing tactic/front office decision for production convenience or to meet a unit price. And if ture, it wasn't a clarinetist that approved it.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-19 02:11
I've been interested in Steven Fox's work for some time now and am considering having him "bassettize" my Bb LL at some point in the future. He told me he prefers, as a player and as a clarinet maker, the three thumb keys system for the extended range, but can make the standard two thumb keys system as well. I play a low C Selmer bass and find the standard system works very well but I'd want to play a horn with Steven's system before I made a decision as to which system to go with.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-19 17:23
FWIW & as a matter of clarification: Don Berger is VERY fortunate to live in Bartlesville, OK the home of the Annual Mozart Festival, & the venue this past June, 2001 for David Shifrin's playing of the Mozart Concerto for Bb Clarinet. mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-19 17:24
Sorry that should be "Clarinet in A". mw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-19 18:12
Many TKS, M W , you are so right! Its a real pleasure to have been able to see-hear quite a number of the best current [and many "older"] musicians via our fine OK Mozart in June and our "semi-pro" symphony [having helped found it and playing in it for years]. A real labor of love and motivation in my life. Thanx again for the "plug". Don
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