 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-18 12:27
Hi,
I wondered if I might ask for recommendations of very close-tipped mouthpieces?
I've been playing a Hite D for four years, which is a 104 tip, and I'm having trouble getting a quick response, so that notes frequently fail to sound at all, when I am playing quick pieces of music.
Paul Aviles has very kindly sent me a German mouthpiece to try - a Viotto N1 (23/100) and I am finding that I get a very much faster response from it, with far fewer notes failing to sound when I play.
I've hit a stumbling block though, because I had kind of an allergic-type reaction from playing the white master reeds, and I would be really glad to switch back to my usual safe reeds, rather than have to test loads of other different reeds to find a good one.
I just wondered if anybody has any experience of close-tipped mouthpieces and reed combinations (German or French), to give me a recommendation?
The ones I know of are
Fobes:
(https://www.clarkwfobes.com/collections/soprano-clarinet/products/10k-soprano-clarinet-mouthpiece-cwf?variant=31814406537350)
Behn sono:
https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/product-page/sono-bb-clarinet-mouthpiece
Behn zinner (but now no longer made in close facings):
https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/product-page/zinner-bb-clarinet-mouthpiece
All three of these are in-budget, but I'd be really glad of a recommendation, as it is a lot of money.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2022-09-18 13:46
You might also want to consider some of the vandoren mouthpieces with close tip openings: M13, M13-Lyre and M15.
If possible, it would be best to try out a number of mouthpieces at a music shop, to see which one works best for you. Two mouthpieces with the same tip opening can be very different.
BTW, I used to have an M13-Lyre. For what it's worth, I found that vandoren V12, strength 4 reeds worked best.
Post Edited (2022-09-18 13:49)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-18 14:12
Hi Ebonite,
Thank you very much for replying. I know what you mean about trying them out. I have tried a dozen at my local shop and I always find that it is instantly obvious which ones work for me and which don't.
I don't think they have any close tipped ones there, but I will write and ask.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-18 15:11
Thinking about it again, I'm certain that my local shop don't have anything closer than a Hite D, because I've tried all their demo mouthpieces twice and nothing else that they have comes close to being as good as the Hite D for me.
Maybe it is just a case of trying things though, and maybe that means ordering online and crossing my fingers?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-18 16:45
Contact Clark Fobes. He is always very responsive and helpful. His 10K mouthpieces are superb, with great response, very consistent tone and great intonation. Tell him what you are looking for and I am sure he can help. His contact info is at the bottom of his page.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-18 17:08
Hi Ed,
Thank you very much, I have written to him and will wait to hear back.
Jennifer
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2022-09-18 20:18
Daddario (Rico) Reserve X0 is a reasonably good resign too. You may want to have it customized, but it's a good starting point.
Mark
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-18 20:37
So far, the suggestions have been good. In the moderately low price range, the Vandoren M13 lyre and the Reserve X0 as well as the Vandoren 13 and 15 can meet many players' needs. On the auction sites, one sometimes sees used Clark Fobes' older San Francisco model in CF and CF+ facings going for well under $100.
Brad Behn's CNC Prescott in a close facing sells new for $200.00. He advertises it separately at https://www.epic-cnc.com. The Prescott is one of my favorite Behn models, at any price. It does just about everything well.
In the moderately expensive range ($350-$400), the Fobes 10K is very good. It works especially well on Yamaha clarinets like the CSG. If you can afford $450, you might want to look into Ramon Wodkowski's latest offerings, all in a 1.02 mm tip opening. The N1 N2, and B1 are making close facings look really attractive again to many players.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-18 21:14
Hi Seabreeze,
Thank you very much, that's great to know. I'm playing a Yamaha Custom CX, so it's good to know that some might work well with that.
If $400 is in budget, do you know if there is any way to figure out whether to go with Fobes or Ramon Wodkowski's mouthpieces, short of trying them all? I'm in the UK, so trying mps from the USA could get really time consuming and expensive. It would be great to be able to narrow it down as much as possible before I get to that point.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-18 21:38
Last I knew, Ramon Wodkowski was in the UK. I believe Howarth is a dealer for Fobes. That make make the process easy.
Since there was a mention of instruments, FYI I use the Fobes on an R13
Post Edited (2022-09-18 21:41)
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Author: klarinetkid
Date: 2022-09-18 21:53
Ramón is actually no longer based in the UK- he’s in the US (Michigan) now. Also, his entire new line of mouthpieces features close tip openings (about 1.02). I’d highly recommend them to you; I’ve been playing on the B1 and love it. Like many other makers, working through the mail with him is a pleasure.
Best of luck!
Post Edited (2022-09-18 21:55)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-18 22:28
SunnyDaze,
There is no way of knowing which of the suggested mouthpieces might work best for you and your clarinet other than for you to try them. Take the $90 Vandoren M13 lyre, for example. Greg Raden, solo cl. in the Dallas Symphony uses that for both orchestral and chamber work, I believe. There are other pro players who do so as well. Surely these players have tried more expensive models and in their judgment did not feel they would get any "value added" from the additional expense. You, on the other hand, may hear some added value from the Behn Prescott or the more expensive Fobes 10K and Wodkoswki B1. Your individual physiology, tone concept, personal clarinet, and the acoustical settings where you perform are all factors that could affect your final choice. You could, for now, test the waters by getting an inexpensive Vandoren M13 lyre (or the closer and less
popular M13) and see how you adapt to it. Later, for very specific reasons, such as more depth, more varied sonority, greater projection, you might wish to try something more expensive. Jenny Maclay, for a couple of years, travelled across the USA as a regional artist giving master classes and recitals, using her $90 close faced Vandoren M13. And she sounded fine.
Post Edited (2022-09-18 22:30)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-18 23:13
Thanks, yes I see what you mean about how testing them is really important. It certainly was very clear when I went to test them in the shop a few years ago.
I just looked at Howarths and they do seem to have Fobes mouthpieces for sale there in the UK, which would simplify things a lot. They are also at a sale price, thought I'm not quite clear why. This page below lists two really close mouthpieces, the cicero 11 and 12. They're both in-budget right now, without any extra saving up.
https://www.howarthlondon.com/accessories.aspx?accinst=2&brand=29
I also chatted with Ramon Wodkowski over email and he said he is happy to send me mouthpieces to test, which is great, and he does seem very knowledgable.
It's quite a daunting thought, to think of changing equipment and having it to test at home and stuff like that. I will have to have a think about it.
Thank you very much for all of this helpful advice.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-18 23:26
Just to get up to date, Ramon Wodkowski is now based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA. Fobes has not made the Cicero model for several years now. The Cicero was a copy of Frank Kaspar mouthpieces, which have shorter facings that feel rather different from any of those suggested in this thread. The regular Fobes close facings are CF and CF+. The original Cicero Kaspar mouthpiece in the 11 size had rather wide tip openings of about 1.11 mm. so I cannot account for the close facings given here. Fobes' standard mouthpieces have been the San Francisco and more recently, the 10K--not the Cicero. Also, when buying any brand or model of mouthpiece in the UK beware of the notation "rebored for B&H large bore clarinet." Mouthpieces rebored in that way will not play in tune or otherwise match your French Boehm clarinet (Yamaha, Buffet, Selmer).
https://www.clarkwfobes.com/pages/mouthpiece-chart
Post Edited (2022-09-19 04:54)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-18 23:32
Yes I see what you mean. I will wait to hear back from Mr Fobes by email then.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2022-09-19 00:17
I've had great experiences with both Clark Fobes and Brad Behn. Both are absolute masters of their craft and are excellent players with strong mouthpiece design philosophies informed by their own playing. Interestingly, both seem to prefer a tone with brilliance and color and not the darkest possible tone, as some other makers pursue.
I have a CF facing from Clark and a close tip Sono from Brad.
I find that Clark's mouthpieces tend to have less resistance built into the mouthpiece, requiring a slightly harder reed than Brad's mouthpieces in a comparable tip. To me, my Fobes mouthpieces have a feeling of less back pressure and more embouchure work and my Behn has the inverse. More back pressure and less embouchure.
I've preferred each at various times but have gravitated more towards the Behn in the last couple of years.
To me, both have an astonishing feeling of efficiency in how they turn air into sound compared to a Vandoren or D'Addario mouthpiece. Both hold together at the softest whisper and the loudest fortissimo in ways that the Vandoren mouthpieces I've played don't. For me, of course.
I'd highly recommend both, but I'm guessing you'll have a strong preference for one over the other, given their somewhat opposite ways of accomplishing similar goals.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-09-19 01:34
sonicbang suggested the Daddario (Rico) Reserve X0.
Here is what Nathan Beaty (R.I.P.) said about the Reserve X0 back in January of 2019:
"The X0 is generally quicker responding with more clarity and embouchure comfort than the X5."
Right now there is one on that auction site, brand new, for $34.00 USD.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-19 01:47
Regarding Max S-D's comments-
To my feel, the 10K mouthpieces have a little different resistance than the earlier Zinner based models. I find that they have nice working resistance and are not overly free nor resistant.
As to brilliance and color, I agree that both makers equipment has a nice amount of color across the spectrum. If one were looking for something that is very covered, I am sure either could tweak a mouthpiece to one's tastes, but they both seem to aim for a well balanced mouthpiece. Clark does have a wide range of models and I am sure some may address different tonal tastes as well.
Of course, it all depends on what a player does with the equipment. I have heard mouthpieces that played by two different players sound completely different.
There are lots of fine mouthpieces discussed in this thread. Each has their fans and most of us could manage well enough on any of them. I would suggest trying some and if you find one that feels comfortable to you, go for it. Don't drive yourself crazy
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-19 02:16
Clark Fobes has another newer series in the 10K group - the CWF models, which are made from a different blank than the CF and CF+ and have slightly different facing dimensions. His exact measurements are listed on his website.
One sort of quirk with the CWF mouthpieces is that when I bought my first one it wasn't clear that there*were* three facings. I hadn't noticed the dot above the W. So, the C is the closest (.95mm), the W is next (1.00mm) and the F is the most open (1.05mm). They all say CWF on the back, but with a dot above one of the letters.
Interesting, if the Cicero 11 was meant to be 1.11mm, that he now lists the current C11 as the equivalent of his old Cicero 11, but the tip opening is only 0.96mm. Your best approach might be to have an email conversation directly with Clark about what you're looking for.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-19 09:38
Thank you very much, this really all sounds very promising indeed.
I looked at the Daddario (Rico) Reserve X0 on the auction site, but the seller doesn't ship internationally unfotunately. That would have been very handy if it had been possible. Thank you for the mention of that.
Thank you Max S-D for your specific reviews of those close tipped mps. It's really good to hear that first hand experience.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2022-09-19 21:38
I'd also agree that the 10K has a bit more "working resistance" (great phrase) than the prior Zinner blanks, but still maintains a similar feeling to the Zinner-blank San Francisco mouthpieces. Still significantly less than Behn, in my experience.
I played some CF and CF+ 10K mouthpieces but left that day with a 4L in the blue marbled rubber, since I was interested in a more open mouthpiece at the time. I have since gone back to more close tip mouthpieces, but that 10K is beautiful. I wish I had left with one of those CF or CF+ 'pieces that day as well. Hindsight is 20/20.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-19 22:06
Hi Max,
Thank you very much for giving me your specific experiences of these mouthpiece. It's really helpful.
When you say "working resistance" do you mean that you have to blow harder to make it work? Also when you say "more embouchure work" do you mean that you have to pinch a bit harder with your embouchure to make it work? Sorry, I know that's a very basic question, but your advice is exactly the information that I'm looking for and I'd just like to be sure that I understand.
The CF and CF+ 10K mouthpieces do sound very interesting indeed.
I've gone back to my Hite mp for now and am going to learn more about it and about how to understand and express what I'm looking for, while I save up a bit more money.
Since going down this route, I have realised that I can relax and play the Hite with much more air and it behaves very very differently, so that's been a very useful discovery. It works much better if I worry less about playing quietly and just get on and enjoy the joyous loudness of it. (no one is listening)
I hope in the coming months that I can maybe hear back from Brad Behn and Clark Fobes and perhaps they can talk to me about what would be a good mp to move on to, if that seems like a good idea to them.
Jen
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-09-20 01:22
Depends on how close tipped you want. I’d consider the D’Addario Reserve evolution. The tip is 1.08 and works well with 3.5 or 3.5+ reeds. It’s my current mouthpiece (in the marbled version).
Disclaimer I am a D’Addario artist.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-09-20 01:23
Jen,
Yes, working resistance means you'll have to blow a little bit harder. There is, IMHO, a very important reason that virtually all clarinet mouthpiece manufacturers incorporate varying amounts of working resistance and that reason is simply "easier stabilization of the tone note pitch".
Allow me to give you an example. A few decades ago, I bought a newly introduced Pomarico mpc. As I remember...it was quite free blowing, however, I noticed something very unusual about it and that was "the slightest variation of my embouchure pressure caused the pitch to simply "go wild". I found it extremely difficult to maintain a steady, constant pitch. Since it was quite difficult for me to maintain a "lock tight" embouchure position, it was impossible for me to play anything and maintain a correct, level pitch for each note. To state it rather bluntly, it was like riding a wild roller coaster. Because I couldn't control the "roller coaster ride" pitch, I sent it back.
To sum it up succinctly, a "too free blowing" mouthpiece is, IMHO, very difficult for most players to control the pitch. The working resistance, as I understand it, resolves this particular problem by maintaining a constant, even pitch while allowing "slight" variations in embouchure pressure.
Anyway, this is just my experience, FWIW...
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-20 02:10
Peter,
Doreen Ketchens, the famous New Orleans clarinetist who plays jazz on Royal St. in the French Quarter, has been playing the same 1.08 mm marbled Reserve mouthpiece models you do, ever since her two Kaspars got "blown out." Rick Hawley at Rice University helped develop that model and he regards it as a versatile medium open facing that can straddle the demands of both jazz and classical music.
USA players have their own reference points for clarinet openings that go back to the old Selmer HS*, which was more closed than 1 millimeters. In the 1950s in the USA Selmer HS* pieces were ubiquitous. The Selmer HS was even more closed, and the Selmer A facing (used by Manuel Valerio in the Boston Symphony in the 1950's) was open maybe barely 0.88 mm at the tip! Now that's close even by German standards (but a much shorter lay than the German). Don Montanaro of Philadelpha set the opening of the Vandoren M13 at about 1.005 mm, just barely over 1 millimeter, and the opening of the M13 lyre at 1.02 mm. Ralph McLane's Chedeville was open 1.00 mm and Harold Wright's about 1.01 or 1.02 mm. Gigliotti's Ched was under 1 millimeter at the tip. Clark Fobes's personal facing is 0.96 mm. Against this backdrop, you pretty much must have 1.02 mm or less at the tip to consider the mouthpiece a "close" faced one. But if you forget tradition and just look at what people are playing in US orchestras today, almost anything under 1.10 mm could loosely be called "close."
Post Edited (2022-09-20 22:39)
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2022-09-20 02:24
I forget to add the Selmer HS*. The tip opening varies around 0.96 to 1.00 according to my measurements (different vintages). But I only had one from a dozen that played well without refacing. I'm aware of that mouthpiece artist legend Everett Matson preferred the oval HS* model as a starting point, but I find that regular HS* requires less work to play well. Actually, I recently refaced a HS* for a friend of mine and he told me it's comparable to modern mouthpieces with a much higher price tag. If you can get one for 30$, have it refaced and you will end up with a fine mouthpiece with under the price of a Vandoren.
Mark
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2022-09-20 02:26
Also, the ESM MCK 1 plays well out of the box without any modification, the price tag is very reasonable.
Post Edited (2022-09-20 02:34)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-20 02:56
This is extremely interesting. Thank you for explaining.
I have been reading all abour Ralph McLane and Harold Wright in Victor Battipaglia's thesis and it is their technique that I am trying to follow, so it makes a lot of sense that I would aim for a similar mp.
I have a Selmer HS** mp but maybe that is a different thing from the HS and the HS*?
The D’Addario Reserve evolution sounds excellent too and I will add it to my list to think about.
Thank you very much for the explanation of working resistance. That makes perfect sense to me when I think about viscosity in liquids. I know that some liquids are more viscous than others, and I once had to pour chloroform from a 2.5L bottle into a small container. Chloroform is very low viscosity and instead of pouring in a neat spout shape, it splits into many different spouts, pouring and splattering wildly in all directions, as though someone had turned the gravity off. It is very hard to get it to pour into a container, and instead it goes all over the worktop. I can imagine that that is similar to a low resistance mp letting the tone and pitch go all over the place. That is extremely useful to know.
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Author: Monsterchef
Date: 2022-09-20 03:05
Closed mouthpieces get to a point where the tip is so closed that you have to play a very long lay to make it work without pinching off the opening. Depends on the amount of over/underbite you may or may not find this style usable.
The most closed mouthpieces are Viennese mouthpieces where the tip is around 0.75mm and lay being almost 3cm long. Mine doesn't tune properly but it probably can be made compatible by companies like Maxton or Gleichweit.
Wurlitzer german facing ~0.8mm opening do work on boehm. The bore and tenon need to be made suitable for french system instrument. Check out their website.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-20 04:11
Sonicbang says
Quote:
I'm aware of that mouthpiece artist legend Everett Matson preferred the oval HS* model as a starting point, but I find that regular HS* requires less work to play well.
Matson used any number of the Selmer blanks. I played some years ago. They were wonderful mouthpieces. He liked them for a couple of reasons. He said the quality of the rubber was very good, but the main reason was because he said that there was lots of material there to work with. Many blanks had one problem or another- bore or chamber too big, baffle too deep, window too wide, etc, etc. He could often spend a couple of hours hand scraping all of the internals and reboring the blank to get the right dimensions using various tools of his own design. He liked being able to shape all of the dimensions to his desired specs rather than to try to work around less than optimal issues with many other blanks.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-09-20 04:43
Jen,
You may want to have a look at the Pillinger P15 (chart below). Although it's tip opening is just 0.01mm under yours, its long facing length of Brand 42 (or 21mm) should give you a faster response. (And, they are in London!)
https://pillingermouthpieces.co.uk/clarinet-facings
sonicbang,
You mentioned the ESM MK1. Would you please compare it to other 1mm tip opening mouthpieces that you've played. Ease of play would be especially important to me. Thanks.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-20 09:00
Thank you very much. I did actually get in touch with Ed Pillinger before a couple of years ago, and he was extremely helpful. I have written to him again now through his website.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-09-20 09:33
In your original post, SunnyDaze, after asking for close-tipped mouthpiece recommendations, you implied you were interested in a close tipped mouthpiece because of your favorable experience with the Viotto N1. In my experience, the more distinguishing feature of the Viotto N1 is it’s facing length rather than its tip opening.
At 23, the Viotto facing length, by typical Boehm clarinet mouthpiece standards, is VERY long. The one mouthpiece that comes to mind that might approach this style of facing is the Fobes Europa 1, which is no longer being produced as it was a Zinner based mouthpiece. The Europa 1 was 19/100, while the Viotto N1 is 23/100.
I have at times comfortably played mouthpieces with longish facings, including a Europa 3 at 19mm and a Peter Eaton at 21mm, but my Viotto N1+2 (23/102) would require too much of a change in approach to embouchure to be comfortable on it.
That said, there are many additional variables in mouthpiece design that influence how a mouthpiece plays for an individual. Consider that facing curve, baffle position, chamber shape, and tip and rail width are some of the other design features that need to work together with tip opening and length of lay. These things all work together. This is why the one constant theme in the replies to your question is that you won’t know if the mouthpiece will work for you until you try it. This, of course, is all complicated by needing to match the reed strength to the mouthpiece.
Going by tip opening might steer you in the right direction… or it might not.
As mentioned in many previous posts, there are a lot of fine mouthpieces available at a reasonable price. As an example, for the show I am currently playing, my $350 Morgan alto sax mouthpiece stays in the case as a backup, while I play a sub-$50 Fobes Debut. It is just that good, and more comfortable for me in the doubling situation.
John
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-20 09:43
Hi John,
Thank you very much, yes, I'm really getting the strong impression that I will need to just try some mouthpiece to get and understanding of what works for me. I'm hoping that Clark Fobes and Brad Behn will be able to give me an idea of what to try, and maybe let me try some.
I understand what you say about cheaper ones too, and I am thinking about that as well. I'm not quite sure how I would get to try those out, as I presume that buying them online and trying and returning is probably not good form.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2022-09-20 17:14
It’s actually easier than you might think! Retailers here in the UK like Howarths and Dawkes are happy to send out a selection of mouthpieces on approval to try at home. Howarth in particular have a wide range, including both European and North American brands. The staff in their clarinet department are knowledgeable and helpful. It would be well worth giving them a call to discuss what you’re looking to achieve and see what they suggest.
Although it’s easy to get sucked into the vortex of expensive equipment, there’s wisdom in the suggestion from some earlier posters that you shouldn’t overlook the mainstream brands like Vandoren. Plenty of pro players use them and sound wonderful!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-20 17:28
Hi,
Thank you very much. It's good to know that there is an option to try like that.
I have tried oodles of Vandoren mps because that's what there a lot of in my local shop, but maybe Howarths could let me try the D'addario one and some others. That sounds really good.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-09-20 19:22
If you're interested in the Fobes I should check with Howarth about the stock. I don't think they have the new models like the 10K and are selling off what they've got at sale prices, with one exception. Howarth seem to have revamped the selection of mouthpiece brands it stocks and weeded a few out. Fobes might be one they no longer intend to stock. But there could be another explanation.
Shortly after Brexit I contacted Clark about getting his then new Nova Alto mouthpiece. He said he wasn't shipping to the UK anymore due to the costs/hassle etc. Howarth couldn't get the Nova for me either. Although it seems some companies that initially stopped trading with or shipping to UK after Brexit have restarted not all have and Clark Fobes might be one.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-20 20:20
Well that would certainly complicate things, and I wouldn't be at all surprised as there are a lot of things that we just can't buy any more. One of the local bike shops actually shut down because it couldn't get any bikes.
Howarth currently say they have a Cicero 11 and 12 (both close tips), and another BBoard reader wrote to me to say that he has a Fobes Zinner CF+ that he is selling secondhand. So if Fobes mps cannot be had on the UK post-brexit then those are my two remaining options.
The D'addario mp did sound good though, so that's still an option.
I'm thinking of sticking with my Hite mp until I can get my clarinet checked for leaks and while I learn more about what I'm looking for, so there's no urgent rush, I don't think.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-20 21:00
"and another BBoard reader wrote to me to say that he has a Fobes Zinner CF+ that he is selling secondhand."
Those are really fine playing mouthpieces!
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2022-09-20 22:05
Hey Dan,
I think the ESM MCK1 is pretty free-blowing, the facing itself is comparable to a Vandoren M13 or M13 Lyre but better focus IMO. The material is acrylic, but very solid. They are certainly high-end professional mouthpieces. And they are very consistent from piece to piece.
https://woodwindboutique.com/clarinet-mouthpieces/31-esm-mouthpiece-mck1-black-acrylic.html
Mark
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-20 23:05
Clark Fobes website quotes shipping to the UK at $40, so that's encouraging.
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Author: staccato
Date: 2022-09-20 23:24
Jennifer,
May I suggest you try the Selmer Focus , 1.05 tip.
This is the most responsive mouthpiece I have tried to date, and plays well with a D'Addario Reserve Classic 3.5 on a Buffet RC.
Howarth London have it in stock £102.50
Cheers,
Henrik
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2022-09-20 23:49
"When you say "working resistance" do you mean that you have to blow harder to make it work? Also when you say "more embouchure work" do you mean that you have to pinch a bit harder with your embouchure to make it work? Sorry, I know that's a very basic question, but your advice is exactly the information that I'm looking for and I'd just like to be sure that I understand."
Good questions! I think Dan Shusta explained it very well, but I'd say that, with the same reed, a mouthpiece with more working resistance will require you to blow harder. If two mouthpieces have a significant difference in resistance, the more resistant of the two is likely to need a softer reed. I use a reed that is about a half strength softer on my Behn than on the Fobes.
We want our setups to have something to push against so that we have some reference point for tone and intonation. Dan's example of the free blowing Pomarico is exactly in line with my experience of overly free blowing mouthpieces. They can sound wonderful, but controlling them can feel like walking a knife's edge. Sometimes a hard reed can overcome this, but that can often require more pressure from the embouchure to control.
I'll preface what I am about to say with the caveat that matters of feel are extremely subjective, so take this with a grain of salt!
I have always found that there is a meaningful difference in subjective feel between resistance that comes from the reed vs resistance that comes from the mouthpiece. Resistance from the mouthpiece feels to me like I can control it with my voicing and air, whereas resistance from the reed feels like I need to use my embouchure more.
Obviously my voicing and embouchure are heavily involved in tone production regardless of setup, but that's how it feels to me.
In the last several years, I've felt like setups that require more embouchure pressure give me a kind of back pressure that I feel in my sinuses and are not conducive to the way that I like to voice on the clarinet (or bass clarinet or saxophone, for that matter). The Behn allows a greater feeling of physical relaxation while enabling me to sound as good as I am capable of. The Fobes is less relaxed for me, but I can also achieve my tonal goals with a bit more work. I know people for whom it is the exact opposite, though, so this is absolutely not a blanket statement of what will work for you, just an example of what works for me.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-21 00:12
Hi Max,
Thanks that's really interesting. It's quite far beyond anything that I have ever experienced myself as a grade 3 learner, but from reading your post I can begin to understand what I might experience in future, and to have the language to express it when I do, which is extremely helpful.
I do sort of understand the balancing act between embouchure and air stream pressure, and it's good to know that that is a thing that even experienced players have to fine tune both through effort and equipment.
Thank you for explaining all this.
I realised a very weird thing about it this week myself. I used to feel that my Hite D sounded very subtle and spiritual, and I worked very hard with my air and embouchure at making it sound more so. But then the Viotto did sound more subtle and I found that I missed the vibrance and sheer cheerful honkiness of the Hite (with apologies to Mr Hite - I'm sure I'm not meant to say that). The odd thing is that now that I have learned to love the sound of the Hite, I find it much easier and less resistant to play. I think it's because I am not fighting to modify the sound, but just enjoying it as it is. I found that really surprising.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-09-21 00:21
sonicbang, thanks for the info. I'll definitely check it out. Although I haven't tried an M13, I did try out an M13 lyre and found it much too resistant for me.
staccato, although I haven't tried the Selmer Focus, I measured off 23mm on my current mouthpiece, then I placed my left thumb nail at the 23mm mark. When I inserted my mouthpiece into my mouth with my formed lower lip touching my left thumb nail, I found the tip of the mouthpiece to be too far back into my mouth for the tip of my tongue to do a fast staccato. Actually, I found anchor tonguing to be easier but, again, I couldn't do a fast staccato with that method either.
Using the same measuring technique, at 19mm or Brand 38, staccato tonguing was fairly easy for me. However, at 18mm or Brand 36, my staccato tonguing was much, much easier to do.
Jennifer, please do take the facing length into careful consideration before ordering mouthpieces to try out. Were you able to do a fast staccato with Paul's Viotto N1 (23/100) that he sent to you to try out? Yes, really long facings are easier to produce a tone, but for some, like me, fast staccato is pretty much impossible.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-21 10:15
Hi Dan,
Thanks, I hadn't realised about that. I don't know whether I could do that with the Viotto. I'll add that in as something to check when I try new mps.
Jen
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2022-09-21 11:14
Given your interest in Fobes mouthpieces, it’s worth flagging that Clarinet and Flute London have a range available, from the Debut to the Blue.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-21 13:50
Hi Hurstfarm,
I noticed that, but the website said they are out of stock of nearly everything from Clark Fobes.
I rang up just now after seeing your post, and the man said they have one ex-demo Clark Fobes San Francisco 10K Bb Clarinet Mouthpiece CF+ in stock. He said it was in good condition but had just "dulled-down" from being used as a demo mp.
He said they can't get Fobes mps any more because Clark Fobes is having trouble with his couriers, so this is the last one. It's reduced because of being ex-demo.
I bought it on two weeks trial. <Eeek!>
Much careful practising going on here so I can endeavour to deserve such a mp.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-09-21 14:21)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2022-09-21 19:27
That's a great mouthpiece. I spent a couple of years on different Fobes facings at different ends of his spectrum (CF and 4L) but a CF+ was a close second in both trials years apart. Maybe I should have been playing that the whole time!
I think you are definitely at the stage where you simply need to try things out, even if the only outcome is that you have a reference point for what to try (or not) in the future.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-21 19:49
Hi Max,
Thanks, it's great to know that you think I'm heading in the right direction, and that this is a good choice to test. This thread has also been great for helping me to understand what I need to look for and how to express in words what I find.
Thank you very much to everybody for all this helpful information.
The mp is just coming from about 40 miiles away so it should arrive quite soon.
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-09-21 20:02)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-21 20:39
Shouldn't the choice of reed type and strength also be a critical part of this discussion? I would think that several strengths and profiles of reeds should be tried on each mouthpiece before it is accepted or rejected. Is this being done already?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-21 21:09
Hi Hunter,
Thanks, yes, I have several different kinds and strengths of reeds.
This is what I have:
Rigotti gold lite 2.5
plasticover 1.0
Bravo 1.5
Peter leuthner 2.5
Fibracell 1.0 and 1.5
Legere signature 2.0
V12 2.5, 3.0 and 5
Vandoren classic 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3
The only one that plays well for me since switching to double lip is the Vandoren classic 1.5. I'm hoping that having a closer tip may free things up to let me play a harder reed. The other ones mostly don't come in 1.5, which really narrows my options.
I can play the Fibracell reeds, but the are not hard enough and buzz a lot. I don't have the 2.0.
Before switching to double lip and having covid I was playing V12 2.5 and the Rigotti gold lite 2.5, still on the Hite D and that was working well.
Jen
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-21 21:39
When I started to play double lip, I found it easier to switch back to single lip every couple minutes until I built up the muscles. Now, I still alternate occasionally, especially when playing rapid passages with lots of C's. It is just really hard not to shake the mouthpiece in your mouth without the teeth support on the C. Or I will rest the bell on my leg or chair for stability. I don't use a neckstrap, but it would probably help too. I also had to train myself not to bang on the keys much while playing, the vibrations from that are really tough on the face for double lip.
Do you try single lip too or are you 100% double lip now?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-21 21:54
Hi Hunter,
Thanks for explaining. I'm 100% double lip. I have tried switching back to single, but it just feels really alien and weird to me, and makes my jaw hurt. I did used to play entirely single lip, up to grade 3, but had to change after having covid.
I have a claritie sling, which supports the entire weight of the clarinet, so I can actually play no-hands and the instrument is still entirely stable.
This is the sling here:
https://www.wwr.co.uk/daniel-s-claritie-clarinet-support-that-takes-all-the-weight-off-the-thumb-aclarinetsupport.html
In addition to the straps you see in the photo, I wear a both-shoulders saxophone strap, and the wooden block is hooked tightly to my belt by nails, so that the clarinet is basically on very solid scaffolding.
I also have a kooiman thumb rest which means I have good control of the rotation of the instrument which really helps on high C.
I really know what you mean about high C. That's a tricky one right enough. It works for me, but I am still getting the muscle memory in place to get it to come out reliably in tune.
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-09-21 22:33)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-09-22 01:25
sunny daze -have you ever played a duckbilled clarinet mpc? its made for double lip playing and makes it so much eaiser. i have 2 Gustave langanues one is spectacular and the other needs refacing. also have a morgan thats really good too. the selmer c85 series is a great closed tip mpc also
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-22 01:54
I am looking forward to hearing your results with the 10k CF+. It is a really nice mouthpiece.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 08:06
Hi super20dan,
Thanks for posting, it's good to hear from you. I didn't know those existed actually, and have never played one. I will keep an eye out in case I get the chance. They sound very interesting.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 08:08
Hi Ed,
It's due to arrive today, so I'm full of anticipation myself. Fingers crossed I will get on well with it. As Max says, even if it's not perfect for me, I should learn a great deal from trying it.
Jen
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-22 14:53
As mentioned, try different reeds. It is really good to use some new reeds since older reeds often settle in or may match a different mouthpiece. I am looking forward to your thoughts.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 15:56
Thanks, that's a really good point. I would just have got my handful of in-use reeds out and tried them. I will make sure to use new ones.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 17:58
Hello!
My new mouthpiece arrived and it is bafflingly different from my Hite in every way. I completely do not understand it. Here is my report of discoveries so far.
Here's what is different:
1) I'm getting a really loud air leak when I play. It gets a lot better if I raise the reed tip almost level with the top of the mp, but I'm not exactly sure that it's entirely going away. It is worse on the 2.5 classic than the 1.5.
2) I can definitely play the 2.5 which is a big improvement. It's weird though because with the Hite I get no air leak, but I can't play anything stronger than a 1.5 and actually get a sound out
3) With the Hite when I try to cross the break legato from E4 to C5, I get a really noticeable silence as I go over the junction, and nothing at all will make it go away. That problem is better with this mp at least to my ears when I play. This is a video of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YlDtl-_p4o
4) Paul Aviles explained to me yesterday that when I do long tones I should start so quietly and so gently that it's almost impossible to pin down the point where the sound started. I can't do that with the Hite, because it starts with a sort of bang and stutter, but with the CF+ it does start very imperceptibly, and does it every time without me needing to try hard.
5) When the shop assistant said the reed had "dulled down" from being a demo mp, he meant that it had turned green on one side. It is still black on the other side. I'm not convinced that it's a good idea to spend £290 on a green mp, since it would actually be cheaper to buy it new from Clark Fobes own website if he would ship here. Tricky.
I would be really glad to know if anybody understands the air leak problem as that is the biggest issue right now. Everything else seems great. Does that mean I should be trying the CF before committing?
Thanks so much for all your help.
Jennifer
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-09-22 18:53)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 18:09
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-09-22 18:13)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-09-22 18:11
Air leak could be one of two things. Operator error as in the leak is coming from the embouchure or the reed is not positioned correctly on the mouthpiece table. You mention that when you raise the reed towards the tip it starts to disappear. So experiment with the positioning. I tell all my students that you should only see a ‘hair’s breadth of the tip’. Also with those reed strengths you’re not going to great much reed/mouthpiece resistance on a close tip mouthpiece.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-22 18:57
Is your air leak through the corners of your mouth or does the tone of the mouthpiece itself sound airy and breathy?
If it is just leaking at the corners, that could be a natural response to dropping from 1.04 mm to 1.00 mm. In that case, Behn's advice to imagine you are blowing through a narrow soda straw might help. You might learn to focus a narrower stream of air that the smaller facing can accept.
If the sound itself is airy, you might need a reed with a different cut of wood and with different blank thickness. With Vandorens, the least airy is the traditional blue box reed. The most airy might be the Rue 56..
If the sound is airy with all reeds, I would not buy the mouthpiece.
There really could be some value to trying cheap close facings first such as the Reserve X0 and the Vandoren M13. Using those, you could zero in on whether you have a problem with air leaking through your lips or whether the sound is airy and foggy because of the reed. Once you've worked out the answers to those questions and compensated to get better results, then might be the best time to advance to a higher priced mouthpiece like the Fobes 10K. That model has been out for what--maybe 4 or 5 years? It should not be turning green. By the way, there are two variants in the 10K--one is made of black rubber and the other is made of marbled blue rubber. The blue one has a slightly more resonant and projective sound to my ears--certainly not airy. Also, Fobes has probably tweaked later models of both types to make improvements. If this is one of the first ones, it would not have the later improvements.
Obviously though, the output you describe is superior to what the Hite was delivering. 1) It enabled you to handle a more "serious" strength of reed, 2.5 up from 1.5. 2) It voiced more easily over the break, and 3) It makes a soft entrance imperceptibly. This last feature is a sine qua non for orchestral players and shows the mouthpiece has some level of musical sophistication.
A green aged mouthpiece that has been tried innumerable times by multiple players ought to sell for well under half price. That's my two cents worth. I'd try an up to date tweaked one in both black and blue rubber directly from Fobes if I had to pay more. Did you check intonation with a tuner??
If you love the mouthpiece, ignore what I said and buy it.
Post Edited (2022-09-22 19:05)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 19:25
Hi Seabreeze,
Thanks so much for commenting on all that.
I really feel as though you are right that I should be trying more mps, to get a feel for what the differences are. The air leak is from the side of my embouchure at the gap between reed and mp, and I find it really weird how it's *so* loud. That seems wrong. I will try what you said about blowing a narrower airstream.
However, as you say the crossing the break and the imperceptible start of the note is great, and hugely worth having. I need that to sit my Grade 3 and 4 exams. The syllabus I learned for both expires at the end of December 2022, so I'm very motivated to find a quick technical solution to that.
I agree that the mp should be half price if it's green. I'm really surprised that they sold it for only 10% off if it's like that. I could ask if they would reduce the price.
I have written to Clark Fobes to ask if he could ship to the UK. At a push, the Republic of Ireland would also work. :-)
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-22 20:59
Sometimes that green may indicate it was sitting exposed to the sun. If they are only discounting a small amount you are better off getting new.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 21:04
Attachment: mp.jpg (206k)
Attachment: mp2.jpg (205k)
Attachment: mp.jpg (206k)
Attachment: mp2.jpg (205k)
Hi Seabreeze,
I just tried the drinking straw idea and that does stop the air leak completely,
I tried again to do the imperceptible start to the note, and it is kind of strange. If the volume of the note could be measured like the size of the font in Microsoft word, then the low E starts 3 point print and then goes abruptly up to about 9 point print. It's hard to get it to go 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
I also rang my local shop and they have lots of D'addario mps in stock and would give me an XO on trial if that would be a good idea.
I tried ringing Clark Fobes shop, but they don't answer the phone just now.
The shop where I bought the mp are looking at photos, to consider whether they would lower the price. I attached photos, so you can see.
Jen
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-22 21:16
Did you put the cushion on it or did it come that way? It looks like a very thick one. I don't use them because I get air leaks out the sides, just like your problem. Maybe try playing it without the cushion. For double lip, it is unnecessary anyway because your teeth don't touch the mouthpiece.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 21:44
Hi Hunter,
Yes, I thought it was funny about the cushion too. It is an extremely think one. It came with the mp so I can't remove it while it's with me on trial, but presumably I could if I decided to keep it.
Jen
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-22 21:44
Can you get the gradual crescendo you want on ANY mouthpiece or is it just the Fobes that's increasing the volume too quickly? How your diaphragm and intercostal muscles regulate the flow of air mostly determines how gradual the dynamics will change in crescendos and decrescendos. But the voicing of the tone in the oral cavity and the reception in the mouthpiece are factors as well. Ralph McLane's metaphor was you squeeze the air out (firmly, gently, gradually) like you squeeze toothpaste from the tube.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-22 21:56
That's nonsense, pull the cushion off. If the store wont' let you properly trial a $300 mouthpiece over a 50 cent sticker, then you should not be giving them your business. If you are really worried about it, pull the cushion off and stick it to a piece of wax paper. You can send it back with the mouthpiece and the store can decide to use it again if they want (they won't, they will throw it out).
If you were trialing any other new in box mouthpiece, they would not have cushions on them.
Call the store and ask them if you are really worried about it...
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-22 22:06
Hi Hunter,
Thanks, that's good to know that I can remove the patch. I didn't know it was okay to do that. I will wait to hear back from the shop about a revised price and ask them that at the same time just to be sure.
I did this video to check the tuning: https://youtu.be/n7Dlxc9Dves
It seems good to me, and the tone sounds nice I think on video. That is good because I always think it sounds good in my head but video can be very different.
Seabreeze - no, I am much worse at the gradual crescendo on my Hite mp. I only learned that it mattered yesterday, so I'm very new at it.
The CF+ does sound very stately and elegant too. I love the jolly sound of my Hite, but this one sounds more smooth and elegant.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-09-22 22:08)
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Author: MarkS
Date: 2022-09-22 22:48
Hi Jen,
When I have wanted to try out Fobes' products, I have ordered from Weiner Music in New York (https://store.weinermusic.com/), rather than directly from Clark. The reason is that they are much more flexible with trials (e.g., 30 days). Fobes has changed his return policy from time to time--sometimes not permitting returns at all. Weiner Music sells many different mouthpieces, including quite a few from Fobes. Prices are same as if you ordered directly from Fobes.
I have not purchased a mouthpiece from Weiner Music, but I have purchased two Fobes barrels. The first time, I had them send me four different barrels to try, and I returned the three that I did not want. Excellent customer service.
I just checked their website and they say they are specialists in international orders. Good luck in your search.
Mark
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-22 23:15
Hunter_100 wrote:
It is a very thick-looking patch. I'm pretty sure I would leak, too, with a patch that thick.
> That's nonsense, pull the cushion off. ...If you are
> really worried about it, pull the cushion off and stick it to a
> piece of wax paper. You can send it back with the mouthpiece
> and the store can decide to use it again if they want (they
> won't, they will throw it out).
Or just put it back on the mouthpiece. The adhesive should let you just peel it off without damaging it. you should be able to just stick it back where it was.
>
> If you were trialing any other new in box mouthpiece, they
> would not have cushions on them.
>
Well, Clark does put patches on his mouthpieces for protection, but they're the very thin transparent ones. And you're right (in another response) that testing the mouthpiece double lip should eliminate the need for the patch. It's there to protect the mouthpiece from tooth damage.
Karl
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-22 23:47
I put masking tape on the mouthpieces I trial if I plan on putting my teeth on them. It prevents teeth marks and is super thin. I also wrap the sides of the mouthpiece with it too to prevent ligature scratches.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-09-23 00:08
Jen
Long tones with crescendi are all relative. It’s designed for the player to be able to gage through the support and air flow. What you write suggests you’re overthinking it too much. Given that fact that you’re also playing on an unfamiliar mouthpiece I’d be more worried about whether the mouthpiece plays in tune and the has the sound that you might be looking for. And of course “reed friendly”.
Regarding Clark’s mouthpieces Howarth stock them so I would suggest contacting them. Also looking at the pictures you have posted if you were to purchase that mouthpiece the lightness can be easily remedied.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-23 00:10
Hi Mark,
That's a great thought about Weiner Music. I will ring them up.
Hunter and Karl -
It's really making me laugh here, but I had no idea I was allowed to take mp patches off, even on mps that I own. I thought they were mandatory, and as immovable as volcanic rock. <headslap>
I'm learning so much doing this.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-23 00:12
Attachment: uk.png (158k)
Wow! Weiner Music has a massive sign on their front page that says they ship to the UK. That tells you a lot about how hard it is to get stuff here post-Brexit.
Oh - but I just rang up and they don't do a trial period for international orders. I could only buy it if I will definitely keep it. $45 postage.
They have the CF and CF+ and both are cheaper than the ex-demo one I have on trial, even taking into account postage, so that is handy.
It means I could return the demo one, try the D'addario one from my local shop, and have the option to still buy a Fobes one new.
It only leaves me without the option to try the CF before deciding which of the three is best.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-09-23 01:31)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-23 11:56
Hi,
I took the mp patch off and you're right, it totally transforms the situation, so that it's like a totally different mp. Without the patch, the mp is great on a 1.5 reed.
Altissimo is not working well, presumably because it is a soft reed. My teacher always I should be on at least a 2.5 to play the high notes in tune, so I figure that is what is missing on this setup with the 1.5.
I demonstrated to my husband, who gets music better than I do. He agrees that it is perfect on a 1.5 reed, but not right (like a buzzsaw he says) on a 2.5 reed. Altissimo works on the 2.5.
So our conclusion is that I should try to move to the CF on the grounds that I am then likely to get the good qualities of the CF+ but with the option to move to a 2.5 reed which will be better on the high notes.
I can buy it from the New York shop, but with no return option. We figure that if Fobes mps are so hard to get in the UK, then if it turns out to be totally unsuitable in some way, then it shouldn't be too hard to resell it. Even including postage from New York, it will be cheaper than the faded green demo mp.
So that is what I plan to do. I will send the demo mp back to London, and buy the CF from New York, and put my feet up for a few days while I wait for it to arrive.
I hope that sounds okay as a plan.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-23 12:01
Confusingly, I think the one I am testing is a
" CF+ Clark W. Fobes San Francisco Bb Clarinet Mouthpiece"
which is apparently different from a
"CF+ Clark Fobes 10K Series Bb Clarinet Mouthpiece"
It's the 10k that will come from New York.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-23 16:04
The San Fransisco is made on a Zinner blank but they stopped being produced. The 10K is Fobes own blank and rubber since they had to start making their own blanks. I would guess the 10K will not play much different from the San Fransisco, but for certain they are different mouthpieces.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-23 16:56
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I demonstrated to my husband, who gets music better than I do.
> He agrees that it is perfect on a 1.5 reed, but not right (like
> a buzzsaw he says) on a 2.5 reed. Altissimo works on the 2.5.
Except for my earlier post, one in this thread seems to have mentioned the CWF series, which are similar to the CF/CF+ 10K San Francisco line but, in my opinion, smoother responding and, for me, have less tendency toward wildness. The W facing is nearly the same facing as the CF+, but with the different blank that you (or your husband) might prefer. I personally find the W facing of the CWF series easier to control and a little more reed-friendly.
Which is not to disparage the SanFrancisco 10K CF or CF+ - they're all very good mouthpieces.
Karl
Post Edited (2022-09-23 21:12)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-09-23 16:57
i can tell you from experience that clark fobes mpcs like harder reeds than 1.5
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-23 20:35
Now at 85 postings and rising, advice on this thread has probably reached the saturation point. I want only to add that the CWF W facing Karl likes on the 10K is an asymmetric one; that is, the measurements of the resistance curve on one side rail are slightly different from those on the other. Some players like this and others find it annoying. So if possible, it would be best to try both the CWF and the CF (which has conventionally matching symmetric side rail curvature) together and compare results before buying either. I believe that Fobes will send both out on trial (assuming he still offers the CWF). The CWF W matched the CF+
and the CWF C matched the CF. The CWF models have the letters CWF boldly inscribed on the front of the mouthpiece.
Post Edited (2022-09-23 20:58)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-23 21:04
Hi Seabreeze,
Thanks, yes, it's been an epic thread. Such a lot of great advice though.
Thanks for explaing about the CWF. That is really useful to know.
Jen
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-23 23:24
Correction.. I have just been reminded that although SOME of the old Fobes CWF pieces on Zinner blanks had slightly asymmetrical facings, some DID NOT.
Fobes' latest description of the CWF model does not mention any asymmetry. He does say that the new CWF (on non-Zinner blanks) are an improvement over the old and that they resemble both the old CWF and the Frank L. Kaspar mouthpieces of the Chicago period.
Bottom line: If you can, try the 10K in cf or cf+ and the somehow different CWF c or CWF f. How they play for you is what matters, not the technical details.
Post Edited (2022-09-24 00:22)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-24 16:25
Thanks Seabreeze.
It's useful to know that some mouthpieces may have an element of asymmetry, because I don't support my clarinet on my thumb, so that would really not help me. My sling is a central support, so my embouchure should also be symmetrical.
It's good to know to look out for it, but that also it's worth just testing the options.
Thanks :-)
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2022-09-28 23:56
You may want to look into Tom Ridenour's Homage Mouthpiece as well. I have one, but don't ask me to describe it.
Here's the link on Tom's website:
<a>https://www.rclarinetproducts.com/the-new-homage-bb-clarinet-mouthpie</a>
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-29 13:16
Thanks for pointing out that mp David.
That's a great video Dan - I can really hear how easily that mp responds.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-29 18:48
Another excellent choice is Clark Fobes' Nova. It is an excellent mouthpiece, but is made on a Babbitt blank rather than his 10K blank. They play really well and are very reasonable priced.
Post Edited (2022-09-29 18:49)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-11-28 20:31
Hi,
I wondered if I could just come back to tell you how this ended?
It took a long time because my clarinet went away to have a key extended, and then elsewhere to have all the leaks fixed, and that took a lot of time.
However, I have now tried the 10k CF, and also a Fobes Debut, which I also bought from Weiner's Music in New York for comparison.
When I tried them it was immediately clear that the CF 10k suited me down to the ground, so I am keeping it and getting on really well with playing now.
Paul Aviles has been working with me a lot off-list over email to try to resolve technical problems, which has been massively helpful. We realised that my clarinet was badly in need of servicing, and getting that work done has made a huge difference too, so things are going very much better now.
Thank you very much again to all the kind people who contributed to this thread. It really has transformed my playing.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2022-11-28 21:21
SunnyDaze wrote:
>
> When I tried them it was immediately clear that the CF 10k
> suited me down to the ground, so I am keeping it and getting on
> really well with playing now.
>
Brilliant!
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2022-11-30 17:46
yep a good fobes is magic. i have a cw san fran. 1 thats just amazing for alto clarinet.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-12-06 04:40
Quote:
When I tried them it was immediately clear that the CF 10k suited me down to the ground, so I am keeping it and getting on really well with playing now.
That is great to hear. The 10K is a fantastic mouthpiece. I have tried many mouthpieces over the years, both contemporary and vintage, and Clark's mouthpiece is one of the absolute best I have ever played. Good luck!
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