 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-02-08 18:46
Has anybody tried one of the new Backun CG Carbon Fiber/Wood Clarinets yet?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gavalanche20
Date: 2018-02-08 20:41
CG - so I’m assuming this is Corrado Giuffredi then? As opposed to Moba for Morales?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-02-08 20:48
I don't even wanna know how much it costs...
It is nice to finally see a true carbon fiber clarinet. I imagine it will be a great instrument.
-Jdbassplayer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-02-08 21:22
It's a carbon fibre clad wooden bodied clarinet as opposed to a completely carbon fibre bodied clarinet. Pretty impressive looking clarinet!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2018-02-08 21:32
According to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D07IMRDjQ5U, it retails for $11,730.00. No, thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary math, and those who don't.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gavalanche20
Date: 2018-02-08 21:58
It seems like such a Canadian thing to do, we did the same thing, wrapping up hockey sticks in carbon fibre decades ago...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RBlack
Date: 2018-02-08 22:01
I am kind of curious about the benefit of wrapping a wooden core in carbon fibre. I can't quite seem to grasp what the advantages are, as I imagine it will still be somewhat prone to cracking (as all wooden things are). If it was to crack, I assume that any repairs would also be much more complicated by needing to deal with the CF as well as wood.
I will say, It looks nice.
(Disclaimer, I've been quite busy, and haven't had a chance to carefully review Morrie's announcement details. So if answers to my questions are in there somewhere, I haven't searched extensively).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-02-09 01:57
If anything, having the carbon fibre outer layer is what will prevent it from cracking.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-02-09 03:01
If they wrapped it tangentially and used a resin that shrinks to put the wood in compression it would probably help with the cracking issue. The issue with clarinets, as was played out with the metal ones, is that they have a bore that is small compared to our expectation of their diameter. So either you need to build tonehole chimneys on a thin shell, or you need a cylinder with a wall thickness of 7-8mm...if this is wood or hard rubber, that's heavy compared to, say, a thinwall silver-plated flute.
I am unabashedly from the camp that material only makes a difference in the texture and elasticity of the bore surface. Most wood clarinets have porosity and visible (i.e. acoustically active) grain. The finest clarinets are polished with some magic working fluid that fills the voids and makes a glassy surface...almost as good as modern high-tech plastics, but not as reproducible. Plastic and hard rubber clarinets, while resistant to moisture and temperature excursions (compared to wood), are pretty susceptible to breaking when stands are knocked over or a clumsy person drops a joint. The fine powder filler used in Greenline and the like are more susceptible to breakage than they would be if fiber strands (say, for example of bamboo) were incorporated, but a carbon-fiber reinforced clarinet cast in epoxy or other structural resin would be stable, invincible, and have a satisfying feel/weight. I believe this is where some of the expensive experiments we see are heading. At that point of sophistication they could easily be made at a cost competitive with mid-level professional clarinets, but probably not competitive with Vito plastic clarinets.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gwie
Date: 2018-02-09 08:54
I tried them at the NAMM show, and they play very well, just like the other Backun professional clarinets. A somewhat livelier sound than the MoBa, to my ears. Yes, hefty price tag (12k), but holding it, you can see the detail work that went into producing it and it's quite ridiculous. The manufacturing tolerances are super-tight and everything is finished supremely well. The inner core and tone holes are cocobolo, with the outer shell in carbon fiber. The bell is a blend of the two materials as well.
It's been really fun seeing all of their ongoing developments in clarinets, and while certainly some of their products are at the top end of the price range, I have a couple students who are absolutely delighted with their Alphas and Proteges. Myself, I'm also considering a Model Q Clarinet in A...it's light and easy to hold up, and also plays beautifully.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-02-09 09:32
More than one clarinetist has said if the Backun instruments only had "more of a livelier sound," as gwie describes the character of the CG Carbon Fiber instrument, they would want one. Getting a livelier sound at the top of the price range is great, and now if Backun can manage to put that livelier sound into less expensive models, I suspect many more players (including me) would want to buy them. Some players love the Backun instrument sound just as it is and has been, but others want more of that "ping and zing." Pleasing both groups would benefit everyone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-02-09 09:58
seabreeze wrote:
> More than one clarinetist has said if the Backun instruments
> only had "more of a livelier sound ... Some players love the Backun
> instrument sound just as it is and has been,
> but others want more of that "ping and zing."
Yes, Backun makes world class products and their bells are barrels have been welcomed by professionals at all levels (I use MOBA cocobolo barrels).
However, to my ears, for some players their clarinets don't have the 'ping or zing' of the top of the line Buffets.
Case in point: Eddie Daniels, who in my opinion sounded better on his Buffets before switching to MOBA clarinets:
Eddie Daniels (Buffet) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SdCFoReTSY
Eddie Daniels (MOBA) - start at 1:04:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnNGVP95eOc
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2018-02-09 11:03
I also played it briefly at NAMM. Several things struck me: 1) It's LOUD. I couldn't believe the volume of sound that emerged with no effort. A unique monster in that regard. 2) It's light. I didn't realize I was playing the A clarinet at first. The lack of weight and ease of play (as well as NAMM fatigue) fooled me. 3) It's very well put together. Solid construction and ease of play. 4) It's expensive. $25k for a pair. I won't be buying. 5) It's got an interesting look with the patterning on the carbon fibre.
They claim it's impossible for the wood to crack. I guess time will tell. It better be because dealing with a crack would be a nightmare.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gwie
Date: 2018-02-09 13:04
I think that the 'ping and zing' thing isn't just a function of the instrument itself, but the mouthpiece and barrel as well. On my grenadilla MoBa, the Behn Epic HCV is superb. It's the most responsive and projecting of all the mouthpieces I own, but the MoBa tempers it a bit. I just performed Frank Bridge's Meditation for a chapel service last week on it and it's a fabulous solo instrument. On my Yamaha CSG's which I bring with me to orchestra, it's a little too much (especially on the Bb), so I'm using an old Chedeville blank refaced by Thomas Carroll, which gives a nice shape and balance. I tried the BD5 recently, and on the MoBa it's really too dampened for my tastes, but on Yamaha it's a nice match.
I love the fact that Backun keeps coming up with new clarinets, pushing the envelope with materials and technology. It's good for everyone in the industry.
Post Edited (2018-02-09 13:10)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sax panther
Date: 2018-02-09 13:54
I've just got some carbon bar ends for my kawasaki. It would be nice to have a matching clarinet...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-02-09 20:07
Noticed the same sort of thing as GBK with a very good player I've heard before and after; preferred the before, but when you've spent that kind of bucks, it's a hard thing to admit. Following on what Nellsonic observed, one thing to consider is how loud we really want to play. I've heard a couple mid-range orchestras where the principal clarinet had a really great sound that, however, was obviously bigger than the rest of the woodwinds. I'm not really hearing anywhere that principal clarinets playing current equipment are at a volume disadvantage vis a vis flutes, oboes, bassoons, or even horns. Less effort for the same result is, of course, good, but one needs to exercise such power responsibly. Once played with a very good clarinetist who claimed to be considering professional therapy to resolve his inner conflict about feeling compelled to play really loud, even though he knew it was inappropriate.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-02-10 11:58
Re cracking, for more than a few years carbon fiber bands are a good method to repair cracks, so seems sort of like a preventative sleeve over the entire instrument, so very likely to prevent cracks or at least make it extremely unlikely to crack.
Then even if it does crack, maybe it doesn't even matter. I'm not sure exactly how it's made but a crack in the inner wood part might not even make any difference. If the tone holes are wood (without a MF layer) then they can be repaired like any wood clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-02-10 18:54
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-02-11 00:30)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2018-02-11 00:33
> MB - Yes. We can guarantee against cracking without limit.
> Torture tested under wild extremes of heat and cold and stage
> lighting. Less than 1/1000 movement measurable with very
> precise tooling. Virtually no pitch change warm to cold as
> thermal expansion is gone
>
What am I missing here? Pitch change with temperature is due almost entirely to the properties of the air column in the instrument, not changes in the dimensions of the instrument. Surely Morrie knows that!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-02-11 00:57
Don't know why but I couldn't help to think this is the ugliest clarinet ever made.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-02-11 01:37
what's up with the hype of carbon? Corrado Giuffredi just posted on Instagram 6 hours ago about his "CG carbon supercar."
-- Ray Zhang
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-02-11 14:11
I can't see the problem of using new materials - this isn't the first instance of using carbon fibre for woodwind instruments as carbon fibre flutes and sax crooks have been made, but in combination with a wooden core it's only making an existing material more durable than it is on its own.
I'm sure grenadilla also got the odd sneer from people when it was first used for clarinets just as Boehm system keywork may have been viewed with suspicion when that was introduced. I'm sure ebonite and later on the use of plastics were also considered ugly when they were first used. Besides, some makers stained or lacquered the wood on their clarinets to hide the colour and grain variations to make their clarinets look more appealing.
As for temperature and thermal expansion, a combination of both denser cold air and an unstable material that causes the bore to narrow when cold will cause flatness. If a far more stable material is used, then there's less to worry about.
I'm never likely to be able to afford one of these carbon fibre clad clarinets let alone a cocobolo one and while it would be nice, I couldn't give them the amount of playing to justify it. But I'd rather pay the price for one of these rather than pay a similar price for a top end Buffet as I know these will be made and finished better - if I paid top whack for a top level Buffet that's finished no better than a B12, then I'd naturally be peed off.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2018-02-12 04:07
David- I listened to your live recording of the Mendelssohn with Michael Whight. You are both wonderful musicians and I would happily listen to much more of you both playing.
But I'm not sure why you posted the link? Where you trying to demonstrate some kind of difference between Buffet and Backun? We're hearing two different players, so obviously this makes the material comparison pointless...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2018-02-15 20:31
GBK,
No offense, but your Eddie Daniels videos don't illustrate anything. Different room, different micing, no doubt different mouthpiece, different reeds, different Eddie (30 years or so!)
Plus, in the second video, he's clearly going for a different, more intimate sound - one that is among the acceptable color palettes for jazz combo playing. I imagine one would want more carrying power (or "ping") in their sound if they were fronting as big band as opposed to playing quietly with a piano.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-02-15 21:47
Marty,
Different mouthpiece, reeds, acoustics, etc... possibly. Even you admittedly hear a difference.
But to my ears, there's something going on and I still submit that (for him) a lot of it is in the clarinet.
Yes, there are countless numbers of very fine players who sound great on their Backun clarinets. For Eddie Daniels, it just doesn't work.
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2018-02-15 22:15
GBK,
I guess we'll respectfully agree to disagree on this one! Yes, I hear a distinct difference, but in addition to the probable setup differences , I think I was posing that in my opinion Eddie was purposefully going for a different sound. I respect your opinion, though - that what makes life interesting!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2018-02-17 00:21
the rendall clarinet book has alot to offer..it is not the material but how it is adapted to make and instrument...etc.. there is so much that goes into the process of making a clarinet that we lost an idea of what the ideal is. the ear guides us in a performance but design is more based on a concept of tone and playabilty...maybe stephen fox or A CLARINET maker would come here to talk...this is a conspcious absence..maybe most makers of clarinets feel impelled to keep it quiet. tom ridenour seems to not say much these days but at leblanc was an expert...so maybe somebody who makes instruments can come forward and state is material the ideal..etc..or do they veer away from a material as the ideal and move forward?
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2018-02-25 00:56
GBK, yesss! Your comment was spot on about the difference in Eddie Daniel's playing in the recordings.
Marty - You could have said, "I fail to see in the videos provided the difference you are trying to showcase" instead of saying "No offense, but your Eddie Daniels videos don't illustrate anything." Your tact wasn't so glorious here.
Strange....Being a clarinetist in the Chicagoland area who plays professionally, I have no idea who you are. You must play as a very casual hobby. GBK is a well regarded member of the clarinet community. Have a little respect.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-02-25 07:01
The question of the influence of material on sound was taken up in the TMS Journal (The Journal of Minerals, Metals, and Materials) in an August 2007 article by Kelly Roncone Zappas, "The Science of Sound: Examining the Role of Materials in Musical Instruments." I can't seem to get a quick link to it but it's easily googled and worth reading.
Gregor Widholm in Vienna has experimentally concluded that the material for violins is crucial to the sound but in wind instruments like the clarinet it is not. In wind instruments, the shape and size of the air column are paramount. Widholm designed an experiment with Muramatsu flutes made of different materials but measurements as close to identical as possible, and there was no detectable difference in the sound of the instruments that could be traced to the material. One limitation to this generalization, it seems to me, though, is that often one type of material cannot be drawn to tolerances that are identical using another material. In flutes, silver, platinum, gold, nickel, and various alloys might be able to assume very nearly the same thickness and shape but in glass mouthpieces, for example, the fragility of the material seems to dictate that the mouthpiece must have significantly different shapes and sizes in the chambers and other parts from either rubber or acrylic ones. Similarly, most woods probably cannot be drilled or undercut to the same tolerances as rubber or Greenline material. So non-acoustical properties of materials may make true acoustic comparisons between them impossible.
It would be great to hear clarinet designers weigh in on this question.
Post Edited (2018-02-25 19:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2018-02-26 01:34
I think nearly every professional flute player would disagree with you about the impact of material on flutes. Yes specs are most important but the materials vibrate differently and do feel and play differently as well.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-02-26 05:47
Hi James,
That's not my opinion. I don't play flute and don't really know. I was repeating the opinion of Gregor Widholm in Vienna who did the experiments with the Muramatsu flutes. He said essentially that if you can get the measurements exactly the same there is no difference in tone. I'm not sure that you can always get them the same. And if they feel different that sensation alone could cause a human flute player (as opposed to a robotic one) to make a different sound. There are so many human factors to consider that I'm not sure Widholm has the last word on this subject. But his experiments are interesting.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2018-02-26 20:06
JamesOrlandoGarcia,
I don't see much difference in the way I phrased my comment and your rewriting of it, and I clearly don't see any lack of respect on my part towards GBK. Actually, I believe I wrote "respectfully disagree", or did you miss that? I stand by my original assertion. Eddie was CLEARLY going for a different concept of sound. Whether you agree or disagree with the sound he was going for is irrelevant. It was 30-40 years different, different mics, different venues, different recording techniques. Maybe GBK's original assertion that Backuns have no ping is 100% correct. However, I don't think the videos in any way illustrate that.
And your off-handed remark about how I must be a "casual player" is both condescending and wrong. I am 60, but in my day, I was a member of the Chicago Civic Orchestra, I subbed with both the CSO and the Lyric Opera, and I was in the finals for the CSO bass clarinet position (which went to John Bruce Yeh). So, YOU show a little respect. And by the way, I've never heard of you around Chicago either....strange.
p.s. I'd be happy to meet you sometime and play some duets. Then you can decide for yourself whether or not I'm qualified to comment on clarinet videos.
Post Edited (2018-02-26 20:11)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2018-02-28 00:45
Martymagnini,
You probably wouldn't have heard of me if your life in the clarinet world stopped in 1977 and have limited yourself to the bubble of the Crystal Lake Community Band. In fact, many of today's working clarinetists were born after 1977.
Saw your bio on the CLCB website. Funny, I studied with Mel Warner towards the end of his career around 2003 and when he mentioned the students he was most proud of, you think a CSO bass clarinet finalist would be one he'd definitely mention... yet he never did. It's a shame he's no longer with us to provide clarity.
p.s I'm not a self appointed committee of one who rubber stamps who is and who isn't a good player so I don't need to hear you play. However those who of us who could pick up our horns right now, this very hour and play in an orchestra tend generally know each other. After all it is easy with social media in the year 2018 to be networked. I'm guess, there could always be exceptions.
Update: I just asked John about who was in the finals for that audition that he won. He mentioned two gentlemen, your name wasn't one of them.
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
Post Edited (2018-02-28 01:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jack
Date: 2018-02-28 08:45
Anyone tried the mouthpiece that Corrado Giuffredi recommends with this Backun CG Clarinet? It is the Backun CG Crystal Mouthpiece. He also recommends the Legere European Cut Reed and claims to have been instrumental in it's development.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2018-02-28 21:29
James Orlando Garcia,
I originally wrote a much angier, sarcastic post, but decided against posting it. Instead I will just say this:
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I love being a teacher, and am not at all disappointed that I didn't have a playing career. Your attempts to belittle me didn't work - at least not on me. I have no need or desire to "prove" to your my credentials, or to respond to you allegations that I am a liar. In retrospect, I probably should not have posted about my playing career - it probably came off as bragging, which was not my intent. I responded that way because I felt your original post to me called me into question in a mean-spirited way. "Strange....Being a clarinetist in the Chicagoland area who plays professionally, I have no idea who you are. You must play as a very casual hobby." That struck me as condescending, perhaps I read you wrong. Sarcasm and attitude in posts can be hard to interpret, and sometimes we make assumptions that are incorrect. I'll assume I did.
Your second post to me seems to be calling me a liar, which I'm fine with. If you get some sort of peace by convincing yourself that I never did the things I said, I can live with that.
Perhaps you do not mean to be as condescending to me as it's coming off. I still will offer to meet you to play duets, but not as a challenge, rather as an olive branch. I would much rather have excellent musicians as friends than enemies. I would love to have you come out and work with my clarinet players sometime, or perhaps have you solo with the Crystal Lake Community Band. We would happily welcome you into our bubble. I'm hoping to salvage a friendship out of our exchanges.
Marty
Post Edited (2018-02-28 21:34)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: reedguy
Date: 2018-04-13 01:27
"Case in point: Eddie Daniels, who in my opinion sounded better on his Buffets before switching to MOBA clarinets."
Actually, Eddie played Leblanc clarinets before he personally introduced John Stoner from Conn-Selmer (who own Leblanc) to Morrie and LeBlanc got Morrie to redesign their clarinets.
Leblanc were always known for their liveliness and fun, and in many people's opinion, Morrie's are MORE lively and fun.
The "ping" that many people miss is the sound of Grenadilla. Nothing wrong with liking that. Morrie's designs very sweet sounding instruments to my ear, even his Grenadilla instruments have that sweetness.
Only those who have been seduced by Cocobolo barrels and bells on Grenadilla instruments ever seem to like a fully Cocobolo instrument. There is room for all tastes of colors and flavours. I had both Grenadilla and Cocobolo MoBa clarinets and just stopped picking up the Grenadilla horns after a while and finally sold them.
It seems to me to be slightly effronterous to state that Eddie used to sound better on his previous (mis-identified) instrument. Possibly it goes beyond effrontery to state that "For Eddie Daniels, it just doesn't work."
Using Youtube "recordings" to make one's point is....well...pointless. I own everything Eddie has ever released and listen on very good equipment. Eddie sounds great on everything. Our sound as musicians comes from our imagination, and the equipment we use is, as Ricardo Morales says....the microphone for that.
Just my opinion,
Chuck Currie
Sax Noir Studio
reedguy@telus.net
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2018-04-13 01:50
reedguy wrote:
> Actually, Eddie played Leblanc clarinets before he personally
> introduced John Stoner from Conn-Selmer (who own Leblanc) to
> Morrie and LeBlanc got Morrie to redesign their clarinets.
Eddie Daniels played R13's and R13 Prestige clarinets until at least the early 1990's.
In fact, his Blackwood album (1989) has photos of a Buffet clarinet (in individual pieces) and a liner note that he uses Buffet Prestige clarinets
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2018-04-13 05:19
I've heard Eddie play live on Leblanc, Buffet and Backun and preferred the first two, but Eddie is a phenomenal musician and all that really matters is what HE prefers...
[saying I preferred his playing earlier in his career isn't the same as saying I "hate" Backun, and may be nothing to do with the choice of instrument but instead his genesis as a player]
Post Edited (2018-04-13 12:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ElClarineto
Date: 2022-01-17 21:49
@seabreeze
Yes- I have played the prototype MoBa version before the CG carbon was released. Projection was so eassssyyy the thing just wanted to go… so much resonance too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
