 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rc.prestige
Date: 2021-07-30 16:18
I have a Buffet RC Prestige A clarinet that I like to use a Buffet ICON barrel with as it improves the intonation all over. It does, however, cause slight flatness on high C (upper clarion). I can lip it up but it's a little uncomfortable to do so. Throat F is also a bit flat, but I'm more or less accustomed to dealing with that.
Are any slight tone hole adjustments possible to raise the C (and throat F)? Or am I better off either learning to live with it, or exploring alternative barrel options?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-07-30 16:56
If both the F and C are flat, the LH1 tonehole (which is where they issue from) ought to be addressed. Take it to a woodwind specialist who does tuning work to be sure they know what they're doing. You will need to be present while they're doing this to check the tuning and if further adjustments need to be done to bring things into tune for you.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-07-30 18:01
Since both are low, a shorter barrel might be the answer. Find one (on your 'A' clarinet? a friend?) to try. Use another mouthpiece also to see if one of these changes are helping the tuning..
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Author: igalkov
Date: 2021-07-30 19:53
Prestige Bb barrel is mostly cylindrical, Prestige A however has a big reverse taper. ICON, as far as I see on pictures, is straight tapered, not reversed (edit: all the sources says it is reversed, so the following conclusion may be incorrect): I really doubt it is a good option for Prestige A. I’m playing RC Prestiges for ten years now, I can truly answer the question Tom Puwalski asked in separate thread: Buffet really knows what they do when ship stock barrels with their horns. I’ve tried a lot of different options but all barrels improve in one place but break in other. Stock barrels are made with orchestral playing in mind, so what can be heard as “improvement” of intonation (by equal tempered tuner?), may be not so good for ensemble.
Post Edited (2021-08-01 22:12)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2021-07-30 19:59
rc.prestige wrote:
"I have a Buffet RC Prestige A clarinet that I like to use a Buffet ICON barrel with as it improves the intonation all over. It does, however, cause slight flatness on high C (upper clarion). I can lip it up but it's a little uncomfortable to do so. Throat F is also a bit flat, but I'm more or less accustomed to dealing with that..."
Do you have the same tuning problem when using the original RC Prestige barrel?
If not, I would be very cautious regarding altering tone holes since that cannot be undone easily (and you need a very good tech).
Also, the advise on trying another MP is definitely worth consideration.
Can you tell us why you want to use the Icon barrel? What are you trying to achieve?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-07-30 21:18
Also be aware the stock barrels for Buffet A clarinets are usually 1mm shorter than the Bb ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2021-07-31 01:57
I had the same issue when I tried Icon barrels on my Traditions. The left hand was a bit flat, especially high C. Maybe a shorter barrel is necessary.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2021-07-31 01:59
It would be also helpful to see how the F compares with the notes above and below before doing any adjustment.
Steve Ocone
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Author: rc.prestige
Date: 2021-07-31 11:05
I first selected the instrument based on tone, but the tuning was a little all over the shop. I remember trying with a selection of ICON barrels. The 12ths were greatly improved and the tone had a little extra ping to it. I recall reading somewhere that the ICON is a severe inverse taper, hence the name - Inverse-Conical.
I haven't gone back and tried with the stock barrel in quite some time, so I might double check that. I do recall though the clarion G A B and C were on the sharp side, hence why I found the ICON improved them.
I am aware of standard Buffet barrel lengths. I live in a moderate-warm climate and have 65mm and 66mm. I wouldn't want to go any shorter than 65mm as the throat G and A are good.
Next steps - I will go back and check stock barrel, and potentially explore other mouthpieces. I'm currently playing a BD4.
Post Edited (2021-07-31 12:46)
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-07-31 16:40
My post on the "flat high G" thread might also help here- I had a Tosca A for a while where the high C was bang on in tune, and the thumb F very flat. By raising the height of the ring keys (thus raising the pad over the "Eb/Bb tonehole") I raised the pitch of the thumb F, making high C just a tad sharp but easily voiced into tune. This may not help, but could work.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-07-31 16:46
The mouthpieces are all 'named' for their facings. I am not sure which 'named' mouthpieces are also guaranteeing that the bore size/lengths are also accurate. Harold Wright chose mouthpieces not how they played, but how they tuned. And he always sounded the same no matter what he played on.
Many tuning issues can be helped by the proper mouthpiece/barrel and length/bore combinations.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-08-01 01:07
The standard length barrels for Tosca A clarinets are 65mm and 64mm - the Bb ones being 66mm and 65mm.
On their site they list the various Icon barrels specifically for Toscas. I assume the same barrel is suitable for both Bb and A clarinets and in four lengths from from 67mm to 64mm:
https://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/accessories/barrels/
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rc.prestige
Date: 2021-08-01 06:33
By raising the height of the ring keys (thus raising the pad over the "Eb/Bb tonehole")
What do you mean the Eb/Bb tonehole? Obviously not the side trill key. Do you mean the pad just below the 1st tone hole? That would also impact B I'm guessing?
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-08-01 09:49
Mouthpieces have a profound effect on intonation of the throat tones, in particular upper “C”. Some mouthpieces match some clarinets, some don’t. The same exact horn can go from completely unworkable to spot-on simply with a change of mouthpiece.
My experience is limited, but I agree that Buffet sends barrels that work with their horns, and have excellent intonation, provided that the mouthpiece also works with the horn. In my understanding reverse taper barrels were intended to compensate for mouthpieces that don’t work well with the horn, in particular mouthpieces with bores that are too big. Many popular mouthpieces are still “big bore” mouthpieces. If the taper adds volume at the top however, it may make “C” even flatter.
I suspect that a different length barrel will not solve the problem in most cases. (Assuming the barrel is cylindrical and has the the correct bore diameter.) The reason is that it will change the pitch of more notes. The mouthpiece is shorter and is at the very top, so affects the notes that are closest to it much more than distant ones. If the problem is the throat tones, you need to fix the throat tones.
Ernst Ferron in “The Clarinet Revealed” has an excellent graph with real data showing how the mouthpiece affects the tone holes closest to it much more than the ones further away.
I’ve found that venting does affect the intonation of throat tones (especially the trill keys), but it doesn’t solve the flat high “C” problem. As Chris says “C” comes out of the RH 1st finger tonehole, which has no pad. If it’s ONLY “F” and “C” it could be the tonehole, but you will probably find that the neighboring tones are also affected to a lesser degree.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-08-01 09:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-08-02 01:40
Raising the ring key heights will improve a stuffy lower register C and E as the RH ring key vent is for C/G which issues from the tonehole just below the socket and the LH2 ring key vent is for E/B as Eb/Bb issues directly from the LH2 tonehole chimney. You can see that as the side and LH3 Eb/Bb key toneholes on either side of the top joint are pretty much the same distance along the length of the top joint - some may be in exactly the same distance and others may be very slightly staggered and different diameters as a result.
F/C issues directly from the LH1 tonehole chimney and F# issues from the thumb tube and also the side F# key which has a smaller tonehole level with the thumb tube and slightly smaller in diameter as the side key fingering is a fully vented F# unlike the regular fingering as LH1 is held down. Open G issues from the LH1 ring key vent which is underneath the throat A touchpiece and is always closed while the left thumb is held down.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-08-02 15:59
Chris P gives some precise descriptions, but a little simple experimentation will demonstrate that lowering/raising the pad attached to the LH3 ring key WILL have an effect on the pitch of F/C (even though this is not the primary tone-hole that F/C issues directly from.
How about this, play a high C (thumb/register) and while you are holding that note steady lower the LH2 ring 1 or 2mm (without covering the ring key tonehole). Goodness, it flattened the pitch, right? Wow. Donald was right. sorry.
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