 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2020-01-02 11:30
Michael Lowenstern purchases two Chinese-made clarinets from Amazon and takes them to a top NYC repair person who takes them apart to see how well (or badly) they're put together! And then he repairs one of them to perfect playing condition.
A fascinating and revealing video ... especially if you enjoy clarinet repair and set-up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uOClLW4Adg
...GBK
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-01-02 17:01
I saw that one yesterday. Very interesting.
One of the issues is that the cost of putting one of those instruments into really good playing shape is likely very cost prohibitive and there are probably many techs who would not want to spend the time on doing that rebuilding. You would probably spend far more than the cost of the instrument.
Anyone who is doing any teaching these days, especially in schools likely comes across man of these instruments. Even if you spend the $ and time to get them playing well, many of them are very out of tune and will not play in tune with themselves.
I understand that may parents want to get their child a bright shiny new instrument (and who can blame them as you get so many freebies, especially those gloves!), but they would do FAR better to get a used student instrument from one of the well known established brands. Those instruments would be light years ahead of this.
In my experiences, many of these "no name" instruments are very poorly made with terrible mouthpieces and in cases that often self destruct in no time. The reeds are absolutely dreadful. Even 2.5 strength plays like a .5, sounds awful with terrible quality cane and really bad cuts. I have seen them so off that one side of the reed is mostly bark. I have also seen them as green as a leaf.
I am hoping that little by little we see better quality in these imports, but as long as people are selling these and parents are buying them I imagine they will continue to flood the market.
Last year I recall one of these instruments that was selling online for $26. I have to wonder what it costs to make one of these.
I'll stop ranting now, but it was a very enlightening video.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-01-02 18:04
Worse than the money involved, think of the frustration and disappointment of the beginner who wants to play well and simply can't because of their rig. And the dismay of the teacher/band director who is responsable for the student/orchestra output. It would seem that with the back-to-school lists of supplies there should be a prep sheet for buying/renting an instrument for parents and students to study before they get anything !
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-02 18:41
Thank you "Djudy" for a reply more thoughtful than the video.
I was pretty disgusted by the "Ligature" video from Earspasm. The "Drunk Mouthpiece Testing" was ok, but this one is pretty irresponsible.
I find that the take away could be that there is some legitimacy to the $100 clarinets and it's only a matter of putting in some repair work to get them up to speed. TRAGIC !!!!!
There was a student I ran into a few years ago that was (and hope still is) pretty involved with the clarinet. He had a Mendini clarinet for a year and found that it was ALWAYS in disrepair.
Let's also not gloss over the pitch issue which was addressed in some manner before the final play test in the video. Pitch irregularity globally as well as internally (just getting a scale to be in tune with itself) is a MAJOR issue with these inexpensive clarinets.
If it were not for Earspasm's bass clarinet excerpt video I'd think his only gig was racking up advertising dollars off the internet based on "hits."
This one should be placed in the round file along with the yellow and red mouthpieces that came with those "clarinets."
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-01-02 21:21
Quote:
Worse than the money involved, think of the frustration and disappointment of the beginner who wants to play well and simply can't because of their rig.
Unfortunately, the student gets frustrated and has no idea that it is the instrument that is holding them back. They just think they are not doing well or that playing is really hard.
Quote:
And the dismay of the teacher/band director who is responsible for the student/orchestra output. It would seem that with the back-to-school lists of supplies there should be a prep sheet for buying/renting an instrument for parents and students to study before they get anything
It is tough to deal with, knowing that the instrument does not work well or is out of tune with the other students and that there is no way to get it to a reasonable standard. One can tell parents to avoid these instruments, but they think with their wallet. They see an instrument on Amazon or eBay that looks like an clarinet and often they see a number of reviews that say that it is a terrific instrument (either bogus or written by someone equally clueless) and buy it. What is even worse is that there are local music stores who rent these type of "instruments" so they can make their money back immediately with little investment.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-02 22:25
Fortunately I have not seen these instruments in local stores, but that would be equally unconscionable.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-01-03 10:36
What’s to be criticised about this video is perhaps the fun they’re having. Because looking at this more soberly, I find there‘s little to laugh about.
These instruments are literally trash, produced for a market that shouldn’t exist, imported from far away and made by people who (judging the way these are made) are exploited and don’t know better. Of course, there’s also decent instruments coming from China, but a large portion is made up of these „99$“ clarinets.
What I find depressing is how this is a failure of our modern economies/ import laws. This isn’t about protectionism, this is about allowing anyone to produce anything these days, and enough people will buy it off amazon/ebay/ali, you name it, because it’s CHEAP, and that’s it. Think of the waste alone we create by having everything shipped to us directly. Think of unfair tax avoiding strategies many of the retailers employ. Etc. pp. Worst of all, people are willing to buy literal trash when there’s thousands of old, musty instruments, that just need a decent repair to run well for years again (see the Bundy thread).
So rather than to support local businesses with competent craftsmanship, you can buy a 99$ clarinet on amazon and receive it within 1-2 days and it’s also yellow. Amazing.
Best regards
Christian
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-01-03 11:55
Here in France there are very strict laws governing the quality of children's toys, counterfit goods, foodstuffs. If you are caught making or even just owning a counterfit or illegal product (that discount Dior handbag or the fake box of Lego you picked up at the border on the way back from vacation in ...), you risk heavy fines. Perhaps musical instruments and their buyers should be protected as are toys and the kids who play with them.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-03 22:37
Here's the issue. These are not "counterfeits" in that they do not claim to be some better brand. They are not technically "rip offs" in that they are not really over charging for them. One should realize that the complexity required out of the fabrication of a musical instrument would require some expense.
My chief complaint is that there may be students that move on to "other things" out of frustration with equipment that ultimately CANNOT function properly to begin with and most certainly will not perform even to its own precarious standards for any reasonable length of time.
I once worked on a budget horn of this ilk (I do not recall a brand name). The first problem was that the spring material was of poor quality and would not "hold" a decent opposing force. Many of them had to be "overly tight" or they would not "spring" at all. One flat spring broke as I slightly changed its shape and I had to replace it with a normal blue steel spring.
Then there is the pressure placed posts (referred to in the video). They can easily come loose, causing spring tension issues to get worse but also causing key and axle binding issues.
Yes, our hapless hero (Michael Lowenstern) can get a cheap clarinet to sound ok for a few minutes.......but that is about the maximum performance one could ever expect. It is NOT a less expensive option to a decent student horn (if that is what one can afford).
I hope that I don't come off as some sort of elitist. Clearly any specialized activity (sports, the arts, sciences) require commitment of time, effort and expense. It is up to parents to do their due diligence researching all that is required to launch into learning music (to include the cost and time of private instruction). I am sympathetic to parents who have a child starting their fourth (for example) extracurricular activity after brief, unsuccessful attempts at three others. But nothing ensures failure faster than coming into something below the minimum required effort.
This was the opposite of a sophomoric video. Sorry. I'm not looking to make advertising dollars off "hits" and "likes."
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-03 23:28
I believe that we have to look at these cheap "clarinets" as something disposable and not judge them the same way as we judge student models from established manufacturers.
Regarding school instruments: a few years ago, my boss came to me and said, "My son plays clarinet in school but he cannot play at all! You played clarinet before, why do you think he cannot play?"
I told him to bring son's clarinet to work- the next morning I saw a Selmer that was leaking from probably every pad on the upper joint. I explained to him that it would not make any sense for them to fix the clarinet that belongs to the school so the following morning I brought him my own stencil French clarinet that I played when I studied. That clarinet was out of tune but held suction and all the keys worked fine.
Let's be realistic: majority of the parents are working people, who, after full work day, may not even have enough energy to "bother" with their son or daughter's music lessons.
Just like Paul said above, any specialized activity requires additional expense and research. Not every parent can afford to do either or both.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-01-04 10:50
A trombone player bought a green one for a laugh. That was all that you could do given the circumstances as the intonation was all over the place what with such a short barrel and all the other defects.
If you want a fancy coloured clarinet, buy a Vito Dazzler of the colour of your choice which can be picked up for around £50 and then spend the money on having it professionally overhauled as you'll have a decent playing instrument at the end of it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-04 17:06
Chris P wrote:
>
> If you want a fancy coloured clarinet, buy a Vito Dazzler of
> the colour of your choice which can be picked up for around
> £50 and then spend the money on having it professionally
> overhauled as you'll have a decent playing instrument at the
> end of it.
>
Hi Chris,
The key phrase is to "have it professionally overhauled".
Would an average working parent buy a NEW clarinet and then overhaul it?
The chances are not. Maybe someone does research and comes across this thread and then your posts will be helpful to that parent.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-01-04 17:54
I was going to suggest that Vito was a reasonably priced and overlooked instrument; "The Band Director's Favorite" someone once said. I have a very nice vintage Vito that I use to play outside (camping) and it does the job. Very solid keywork, ok tuning. If you get it from a music store it should already have been gone over. I also had, for the same reasons, a surprising plastic Evette by Buffet Crampon, probably from the same period. If price is really the issue, with a decent mp these are a better solution than a new made-in-china or wherever piece of junk. My mp cost more than the Evette !
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-01-05 01:18
There's a clear difference to having a used clarinet professionally overhauled by a reputable repairer and having someone without the skill overhaul it only to have done a half-arsed job.
Guess which one will be the better player?
And there are brand new clarinets that can do with being professionally overhauled (even pro models) as they're not well finished by the factory that made them.
If anyone's buying a used clarinet, buy from a reputable seller who guarantees their instruments and their work, or expect to have it fully overhauled if buying from anywhere else.
And if anyone doing their research is reading this, factor in the cost of a full overhaul on any used clarinet you buy. And that's me being helpful.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-01-05 11:43
The first Chinese clarinets in the video required no adjustment and was "pro level" from the start. The second one was crap and required work worth more than its initial price. But also instruments sold as "pro level" can leak or have other problems that require initial work. Though chances are good they require substantially less work.
The most interesting part was the sound test, which (again) shows how little different clarinet bodies affect the sound. There can be more differences that only the player can notice, like vibrations, uneven resistance, and more.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2020-01-05 12:03
Forget clarinet body material. How about the fact that Jupiter clarinet certainly has a different acoustical design from that pro-level Selmer and yet I really couldn’t hear much of a difference.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-01-05 12:11
The Selmer and Jupiter definitely were the better sounding clarinets in the blind test.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-01-05 13:05
Chris P. wrote:
"... there are brand new clarinets that can do with being professionally overhauled (even pro models) as they're not well finished by the factory that made them.
If anyone's buying a used clarinet, buy from a reputable seller who guarantees their instruments and their work, or expect to have it fully overhauled if buying from anywhere else.
And if anyone doing their research is reading this, factor in the cost of a full overhaul on any used clarinet you buy. And that's me being helpful."
Thank you, Chris!
You are absolutely right. I bought two clarinets from the action site and both were not as described.
Bought two new clarinets (Bb and later A)- both had sticking tenons and the A did not hold suction. I have not taken apart the A yet, but the Bb had at least one questionable tone hole…
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